19-08-2005 22:03									#331
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Fugi the Great Comparing this version to the first playtest, the slider bar on the National Manager used to stay put when you closed it, so that when you reopened it, it was still in the place you left it. Now it always defaults to the top when you open it. A reason this was changed?

What playtest version? And what slider?

quote: Originally posted by Fugi the Great Since the spell check button on the bottom of this page no longer works, I recommend the Google Toolbar that will spell check anything typed on your computer.

That Google Toolbar is spyware, isn't it? And only support for Internet Exploiter. Anyway Aplyton would need an integrated spellchecker, to make me use it. I rather have a problem with to less commas, that makes sometimes the post a little bit unreadible. Well and sometimes in the heat of the battle, some words get lost. And maybe here and there some typos, but no reason to get upset in general.

-Martin

	21-08-2005 16:07									#332
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The reminder that a treaty is about to end, can the treaties last 20 turns instead of is it 10? Its annoying, especially with 8+ other civs.

Also about the reminder, can it tell you which treaty is about to end? Not sure if this one might have been mentioned before, anyway.

EDIT: Actually this might already be 20

Last edited by Maquiladora on 21-08-2005 at 22:40

	21-08-2005 16:10									#333
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann What playtest version? And what slider?

I think hes talking about the scrollbar, I know it used to stay in 1.1.

	21-08-2005 17:13									#334
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Heres an interesting screenshot.

1. Why hasnt the AI connected all its cities with roads?

Actually ive noticed this a lot with the new playtest (may have been with olders ones too), the AI takes far too long to connect all its cities, sometimes just doesnt do it at all.

It helps to have roads to every city ASAP because roads can increase happiness due to smaller capital distance, and obviously defence/attack is easier too.

2. Why hasnt it placed 2 more cities in the 2 tiles outside its border but on its small continent? It has 4 settlers but they havent moved from the cities in at least 5 turns.

3. This AI is way in the lead scientifically and militarily (mostly due to wonders), and if they placed more farms instead of mines, theyd be even further.

What are the minimum requirements for growth in each city? I may have asked this before but i forgot. Also why does it decide to place for example, a trading post instead of a farm or mine?

4. Why are all those military fortified doing nothing? Theyre building all military in their cities but no more transports to attack across the water.

Another thing unrelated to this screenshot, I noticed the AI builds tile imps around its bigger cities first, I think this should be the other way around and improve smallest ones first.

Small cities arent any use at all, in fact theyre a hindrance because they alter the sliders, and have to use more specialists. It takes a long time to develop a city (growth and buildings) so it only makes sense to work on smaller ones first.

Also when the human aims for one of the AI's super-cities it almost kills it straight away, so if all its cities were more equal it would make less difference.

Attachment: aug2placement.jpg
This has been downloaded 232 time(s).

	22-08-2005 03:27									#335
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Heres an interesting screenshot. 1. Why hasnt the AI connected all its cities with roads? Actually ive noticed this a lot with the new playtest (may have been with olders ones too), the AI takes far too long to connect all its cities, sometimes just doesnt do it at all. It helps to have roads to every city ASAP because roads can increase happiness due to smaller capital distance, and obviously defence/attack is easier too.

Actual I don't why this is so, I noticed a long time ago when I modified the road astar, however so far I looked into other things.

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora 2. Why hasnt it placed 2 more cities in the 2 tiles outside its border but on its small continent? It has 4 settlers but they havent moved from the cities in at least 5 turns.

Looking into the settling map could help. One possibility is that these new cities would be too close then. However the AI has enough room for new cities. However the city on the other continent is conquered.

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora 3. This AI is way in the lead scientifically and militarily (mostly due to wonders), and if they placed more farms instead of mines, theyd be even further. What are the minimum requirements for growth in each city? I may have asked this before but i forgot. Also why does it decide to place for example, a trading post instead of a farm or mine?

The AI places farms until the city has enough food meanining it needs 30 turns for one pop at minimum, I exposed this number to startegies.txt. Alternatively it places farms until there is enough for the next pop or for the next ring.

Note that the AI can't use laborers properly yet. And farmers only to archieve these settings described above. And for the early game as long as you don't have laborers you are better with mines. Actual that's what I see the more mines an AI has the more it is in the game, well until turn 200 of my test game.

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora 4. Why are all those military fortified doing nothing? Theyre building all military in their cities but no more transports to attack across the water.

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Another thing unrelated to this screenshot, I noticed the AI builds tile imps around its bigger cities first, I think this should be the other way around and improve smallest ones first.

That has to do something with the utilisation stuff, Fromafar penatized the tiles with low utilisation, at least I undid this for ring 1 cities. Maybe we should change the order how the tileimps are added into the queue.

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Also when the human aims for one of the AI's super-cities it almost kills it straight away, so if all its cities were more equal it would make less difference.

What do you mean by this?

-Martin

	22-08-2005 10:44									#336
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quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann What do you mean by this?

Its basically the same as saying, a couple of big cities and lots of small cities is useless, compared to all equally developed (but medium size) cities. The easily biggest city for the AI makes a good target for the human.

quote: The AI places farms until the city has enough food meanining it needs 30 turns for one pop at minimum, I exposed this number to startegies.txt. Alternatively it places farms until there is enough for the next pop or for the next ring. Note that the AI can't use laborers properly yet. And farmers only to archieve these settings described above. And for the early game as long as you don't have laborers you are better with mines. Actual that's what I see the more mines an AI has the more it is in the game, well until turn 200 of my test game.

I dont get that, you say it places farms to reach minimum growth of 30 turns, but alternatively it places farms until there is enough for next pop or next ring?

And then you say it can only use farmers to achieve the settings above?

Which does it use farmers or farms? If it can terraform and/or farm enough land to reach minimum growth, it shouldnt use any farmers.

It definitely slows down at around turn 200 because it just decides to stop settling or it cant see enough room, and also drops behind in science because of slow growth in existing cities.

The first expansion phase to Tyranny it goes very fast, then into Monarchy-Fascism it stops building cities and entirely military, even to over 80% support sometimes.

	23-08-2005 00:32									#337
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora I dont get that, you say it places farms to reach minimum growth of 30 turns, but alternatively it places farms until there is enough for next pop or next ring? And then you say it can only use farmers to achieve the settings above? Which does it use farmers or farms? If it can terraform and/or farm enough land to reach minimum growth, it shouldnt use any farmers.

OK once again, I created a function that checks whether the city has enough food or not. The criteria are:

Does the city has enough food to support the current population.
Does the city has enough food so that it needs for one pop at most 30 turn. (The condition before is included in this one)
Does the city has enough food to support the current population and another pop. (Has it enough food once it is grown)
Is there enough food available once the city has reached the next ring.

I use the same function, so the same criteria to decide whether the city has to build a farm and whether the city has to engange a farmer. Well after some rethinking the 30 turn condition is enough for the farmers.

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora It definitely slows down at around turn 200 because it just decides to stop settling or it cant see enough room, and also drops behind in science because of slow growth in existing cities. The first expansion phase to Tyranny it goes very fast, then into Monarchy-Fascism it stops building cities and entirely military, even to over 80% support sometimes.

That's indeed a problem if the support is such high. An adjustment in the strategies.txt would help.

I think for the connecting roads issure the problem might be that the RoadUtilityBonus in strategies.txt is so low, in GoodMod it is higher.

-Martin

	23-08-2005 15:06									#338
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quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann OK once again, I created a function that checks whether the city has enough food or not. The criteria are: Does the city has enough food to support the current population. Does the city has enough food so that it needs for one pop at most 30 turn. (The condition before is included in this one) Does the city has enough food to support the current population and another pop. (Has it enough food once it is grown) Is there enough food available once the city has reached the next ring.

Also what happens if the city reaches the maximum size? Is it taken into account?

Actually i had some success increasing ImproveSmallCityGrowthBonus, not perfect but certainly better. I didnt see the AI terraforming to place a farm though, maybe because it placed a farm before it had enough to terraform.

quote: That's indeed a problem if the support is such high. An adjustment in the strategies.txt would help.

Well i dont think any tells it 80%, which is strange that would allow it to go so high.

I just see lots and lots of units going in the same direction exploring, sometimes.

quote: I think for the connecting roads issure the problem might be that the RoadUtilityBonus in strategies.txt is so low, in GoodMod it is higher.

I tried increasing RoadUtilityBonus to 300 and didnt see any difference in over 200 turns, this is over 150 turns capable of making roads, then i tried it at 600 RoadUtility and no difference, some roads as usual in both tests, but not connecting all cities.

Could it be spending all PW immediately on farms instead of building roads, regardless of RoadUtilityBonus?

	24-08-2005 00:44									#339
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quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Also what happens if the city reaches the maximum size? Is it taken into account?

Actual I take the raw growth rate into account, not the one modified by the city overcrowding coefficent and I check whether the city is near the limit.

However I should use for farmers just the 30 turn condition based on raw growth rate.

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Actually i had some success increasing ImproveSmallCityGrowthBonus, not perfect but certainly better. I didnt see the AI terraforming to place a farm though, maybe because it placed a farm before it had enough to terraform.

Actual it does terraform, whether it places afterwards a farm is another story.

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora I just see lots and lots of units going in the same direction exploring, sometimes.

Well exploring is another thing that needs to be improved.

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora I tried increasing RoadUtilityBonus to 300 and didnt see any difference in over 200 turns, this is over 150 turns capable of making roads, then i tried it at 600 RoadUtility and no difference, some roads as usual in both tests, but not connecting all cities.

I used the values of GoodMod for RoadUtilityBonus, ImproveProductionBonus and ImproveGrowthBonus. Most of the roads were connected, some cities weren's connected at all, and other civs didn't build roads at all in a 200 turns test. So indeed I see that this helps however the road paths still need some improvement.

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Could it be spending all PW immediately on farms instead of building roads, regardless of RoadUtilityBonus?

I doubt it, the other boni seem to be too high.

-Martin

	27-08-2005 09:23									#340
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I built another "patch" at rev441. its in my sig and I included the text files i missed out last time. now I'm on to my source code attempts...

EDIT: I completed my NeedsCityGood code (for Units only for now) and added the exe in case anyone wants to try it as well.
You need to get the Good Name (like Desert_one or however its done in terrain) and that same label must go to the unit field NeedsCityGood.

Now if you have a good inyour city radius you can build that unit, but if you trade that good to another city then you CANT build it and the buyingcity can. It makes cities more strategic and allows for the option of sending special units to more productive cities, and makes you have to choose between trading a good or using it for development.

Last edited by E on 27-08-2005 at 11:16

	27-08-2005 13:18									#341
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quote: Originally posted by E Now if you have a good inyour city radius you can build that unit, but if you trade that good to another city then you CANT build it and the buyingcity can. It makes cities more strategic and allows for the option of sending special units to more productive cities, and makes you have to choose between trading a good or using it for development.

That sounds great!

Edit: Sounds great, works great, have a question though:

I noticed that the city only registers the Good there when the city is built, so you cant add a Good by the scen editor to an existing city and in a way "refresh" the build menu. Very minor issue though.

Havent tried it with a trade route in place yet.

	27-08-2005 21:33									#342
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quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora I noticed that the city only registers the Good there when the city is built, so you cant add a Good by the scen editor to an existing city and in a way "refresh" the build menu. Very minor issue though.

y'know when itested previously it was no problem (before adding the trade route part) and when i was coding/testing it that problem would appear. the last time i tried it worked. hopefully martin can see what i did wrong in that respect.

Glad you like it. there are a lot of other things I'd like to do with goods but they may have to wait but as a hint:

I'm thinking of making tileimps where you can plant goods (like cotton) so you have to plant resources to build you war machine, ie cotton needed for infantry and certain cities are cotton exporters

exporting good traits. with the m_buying thing i used here i'm thinking of adding building-like attributes like increase food etc so you can export farm stuff. Also I want to have one that IncreasesCrime so when you export poppies to other players it causes problems in the cities like the British opium Wars or todays Drug Wars. Not advocating the morality of it but it would be a cool phenomn to deal with here.

	30-08-2005 03:52									#343
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quote: Originally posted by E Also I want to have one that IncreasesCrime

Could you not simply use the existing DecreasesCrime (or whatever it's called) with a negative value?

	30-08-2005 04:37									#344
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway Could you not simply use the existing DecreasesCrime (or whatever it's called) with a negative value?

I believe so but as far I know DecreaseCrime is not associated with buying or having a good. so I have to take the capability fgrom the building.

	30-08-2005 12:39									#345
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hello. i'm new to this. i hope not to repeat a usual question:

when trying to start game tells me i need a mss32.dll
after downloading one and putting to game/or/win.sys tells me it fails a remote procedure call @4 for the master volume

what can i do ? (is there anything i can do?)

i'm running windows 2003 on an
1,5 Ghz Centrino Notebook

	31-08-2005 03:09									#346
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quote: Originally posted by E I believe so but as far I know DecreaseCrime is not associated with buying or having a good. so I have to take the capability fgrom the building.

Ah yes, I see what you mean now.

	31-08-2005 05:04									#347
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quote: Originally posted by grimm when trying to start game tells me i need a mss32.dll

The mss32.dll comes with the CD so you shouldn't have any problems with this.

-Martin

	31-08-2005 16:40									#348
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I got this error message :

But when i push Print Screen Button on the Keyboard ...

Where i can visionate the screens .... ?

	31-08-2005 16:47									#349
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Sorry i didn't found : my game exit after a curious message ...

Latest playest is unplayable

	31-08-2005 21:29									#350
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quote: Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred Sorry i didn't found : my game exit after a curious message ... Latest playest is unplayable

Well, just saying, it doesn't work, isn't very hepful, for instance you could post the content of the crash.txt in this thread. And with content I mean content, not the file as attachment.

-Martin

	01-09-2005 13:42									#351
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Ok i will reinstall CTP 2 and retry

	01-09-2005 14:12									#352
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I don't understand all is ok now

Sorry

	04-09-2005 23:48									#353
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quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora I think hes talking about the scrollbar, I know it used to stay in 1.1.

exactly!

Game froze at turn 661, restart from Autosave - okay.

Turn 694 - CTD, crashtext:
0x27c60e98 [__onexitbegin + 0x2713f040]
0x0042b43b [?Process@Director@@QAEXXZ + 0x2b]
0x0040c34a [?Process@CivApp@@QAEJXZ + 0x12a]
0x00406f4e [?CivMain@@YGHPAUHINSTANCE__@@0PADH@Z + 0x39e]
0x00406a05 [WinMain@16 + 0x65]
0x007bb5fc [WinMainCRTStartup + 0x134]
0x77e814c7 [__onexitbegin + 0x7735f66f]

Restart from Autosave - okay. Game froze at turn 698.

Still getting attacked by single units or by one military units escorting a settler. Bombers would do more damage if they would "bombard" instead of attack one at a time (kamikaze). AI does seem more aggressive, and one of the empires is just going totally berserk - almost acting human in attacking other empires and
e x p a n d i n g (doesn't have to worry about a 2 or 3 front war). I can tell I am going to have a very nasty war with him in the future, probably the most intense war I will have ever fought - his military is H U G E and even at this late game turn we are neck and neck in technology.

Seems to be a lot of time being used between "building complete" and actually getting the game back to do something - almost seems locked up for over a minute.

Now if you can just fix the game exit problem, you may be getting close to having a winner.

	05-09-2005 02:05									#354
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Fugi the Great Game froze at turn 661, restart from Autosave - okay. Turn 694 - CTD, crashtext: 0x27c60e98 [__onexitbegin + 0x2713f040] 0x0042b43b [?Process@Director@@QAEXXZ + 0x2b] 0x0040c34a [?Process@CivApp@@QAEJXZ + 0x12a] 0x00406f4e [?CivMain@@YGHPAUHINSTANCE__@@0PADH@Z + 0x39e] 0x00406a05 [WinMain@16 + 0x65] 0x007bb5fc [WinMainCRTStartup + 0x134] 0x77e814c7 [__onexitbegin + 0x7735f66f] Restart from Autosave - okay. Game froze at turn 698.

Well there seems to be a problem with the executable, mistrust this exception stack, __onexitbegin at the start and of the end - no. And CivApp::Process doesn't call g_director->Process().

So what ctp2.exe do you use Fugi? The one John posted or one of E's executables. However I think it is time for a new playtest anyway - with all these recent code changes.

-Martin

	05-09-2005 02:43									#355
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann So what ctp2.exe do you use Fugi? The one John posted or one of E's executables. However I think it is time for a new playtest anyway - with all these recent code changes. -Martin

whichever is the one from the latest Playtest - 8-2-2005 I believe.

crash.txt from turn 723:
0x00777b49 [? Remove_Agent_Reference@Plan@@QAE_NABVconst_iterato
r@?$list@PAVAgent@@V?$allocator@PAVAgent@@@std@@@std@@@Z + 0x19]
0x00783a88 [?Remove_Agent@Squad@@QAE?AVconst_iterator@?$list@PAVAgent@@V?$allocator@PAVAgent@@@std@@@std@@ABV234@AB_N@Z + 0x28]
0x00783a2d [?Remove_Dead_Agents@Squad@@QAEFXZ + 0x3d]
0x00778f7c [?Process_Squad_Changes@Scheduler@@QAE?AW4TIME_SLICE_STATE@1@XZ + 0x2c]
0x00795bbe [?GEVHookCallback@CtpAi_BeginSchedulerEvent@@EAE? AW4GAME_EVENT_HOOK_DISPOSITION@@W4GAME_EVENT@@PAVG
ameEventArgList@@@Z + 0x4e]
0x00577ba4 [?Activate@GameEventHook@@QAE?AW4GAME_EVENT_ERR@@PAVGameEventArgList@@AAJ@Z + 0x34]
0x00578582 [?ActivateHook@GameEventManager@@QAE? AW4GAME_EVENT_ERR@@W4GAME_EVENT@@PAVGameEventArgLi
st@@AAJ@Z + 0x22]
0x0057691e [?Process@GameEvent@@QAE?AW4GAME_EVENT_ERR@@AAH@Z + 0x3e]
0x005782e8 [?Process@GameEventManager@@QAE?AW4GAME_EVENT_ERR@@XZ + 0x88]
0x0040c41e [?Process@CivApp@@QAEJXZ + 0x1fe]
0x00406f4e [?CivMain@@YGHPAUHINSTANCE__@@0PADH@Z + 0x39e]
0x00406a05 [WinMain@16 + 0x65]
0x007bb5fc [WinMainCRTStartup + 0x134]
0x77e814c7 [__onexitbegin + 0x7735f66f]

CTP.exe still running in background using 301.7 megs.

edit:

game was crashing every two turns for a while just before the end. I guess I am done with that game, game kept crashing at the same point after a reload of the Autosave - turn 731. The mother of all battles will not be fought until maybe the next Playtest. Crash.txt:

0x00777a53 [?Rollback_All_Agents@Plan@@QAEJXZ + 0x23]
0x007790cc [?Process_Squad_Changes@Scheduler@@QAE?AW4TIME_SLICE_STATE@1@XZ + 0x17c]
0x00795cc9 [?GEVHookCallback@CtpAi_ProcessMatchesEvent@@EAE? AW4GAME_EVENT_HOOK_DISPOSITION@@W4GAME_EVENT@@PAVG
ameEventArgList@@@Z + 0x69]
0x00577ba4 [?Activate@GameEventHook@@QAE?AW4GAME_EVENT_ERR@@PAVGameEventArgList@@AAJ@Z + 0x34]
0x00578582 [?ActivateHook@GameEventManager@@QAE? AW4GAME_EVENT_ERR@@W4GAME_EVENT@@PAVGameEventArgLi
st@@AAJ@Z + 0x22]
0x0057691e [?Process@GameEvent@@QAE?AW4GAME_EVENT_ERR@@AAH@Z + 0x3e]
0x005782e8 [?Process@GameEventManager@@QAE?AW4GAME_EVENT_ERR@@XZ + 0x88]
0x0040c41e [?Process@CivApp@@QAEJXZ + 0x1fe]
0x00406f4e [?CivMain@@YGHPAUHINSTANCE__@@0PADH@Z + 0x39e]
0x00406a05 [WinMain@16 + 0x65]
0x007bb5fc [WinMainCRTStartup + 0x134]
0x77e814c7 [__onexitbegin + 0x7735f66f]

	06-09-2005 00:23									#356
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann Well there seems to be a problem with the executable, mistrust this exception stack, __onexitbegin at the start and of the end - no. And CivApp::Process doesn't call g_director->Process().

The call doesn't have to be direct. As long as there is an indirect call, you may get this stack layout anyway. The compiler may have optimized away some intermediate calls.

	08-09-2005 21:03									#357
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Fromafar The call doesn't have to be direct. As long as there is an indirect call, you may get this stack layout anyway. The compiler may have optimized away some intermediate calls.

OK that would explain one part, but I don't understand why __onexitbegin is on the top and on the bottom of the stack.

-Martin

	10-09-2005 22:48									#358
	Got spare money?

Im playing the Apolpack mod (great mod). Now I have found that playing the lastest playtest , diplomacy between the AI,s has been the best of any mods.
AI.s expand by war but also seems to wait till they have the means to win. AI has muti stances with other AI factions not just a hate to war relationship.
Now if we use the playtest with a mod will diplomacy work like this? Or will Diplomod override latest changes?

	10-09-2005 23:02									#359
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

You have to try it, I didn't use the playtest with the ApolytonPack, but probably Diplomod will adds some activity, maybe it overwrites some part of diplomacy, however you can disable Diplomod by opening the script.slc in your ..\ctp2_data\default\gamedata\ folder. And remove the import of Diplomod.slc, maybe it is in a file called APOL_main.slc.

But actual what do you want to have in of ApolytonPack in the playtest, the new city styles are in, also new goods are added.

-Martin

	10-09-2005 23:31									#360
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Thanks Martain. Thats a good point removing file would work. Also I think replacing diplomacy defalt file too in aidata to match playtest will give me what I want.
Can also make changes in downlode file so as not to over write everything.
The playtest has so many new options to offer which none of the mods should be without