21-12-2004 21:54									#1
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There was one of the pop boom stratiges that due to a bug didn't work in smac but did work in alien crossfire if I remember correctly. Anyone remember which one this was? Thanks!

	21-12-2004 22:03									#2
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It was "Golden Age popboom" or, most common referred to as GA popboom.

GA was supposed to give +2 growth +1economy to the city which has got it, but in SMAC instead it gave only +1Economy.

It may seem a little bug, but for some factions that meant a huge weakness.
These were factions which weren't able to select all SE choices which give Growth (not talking about Eudaimonic Future Society).
Those factions are:
Morgan (unable to select Planned)
Hive(unable to select Democracy)

In SMAX it's a big change for Morgan as Golden Age usually gives him very much (he can reach magical +5economy with GA) and of course popboom.

For Hive it's not a big deal because getting GA to Hive cities is damn hard and is considered irrational by most players (especially for so called "Hiveaholics" which tend to think that Police is made for drones and they do not need anything else).

	21-12-2004 22:36									#3
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Thanks, that was what I thought but wasn't sure. (sigh) it would be nice if GA pop boom worked in smac make it easier to boom only certain cities and not all of them at once. Thanks again!

	21-12-2004 22:47									#4
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Glad to help!

	21-12-2004 23:05									#5
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dacole, the Win2000/XP Compatibility patch fixes the GA popboom bug in SMAC.

	22-12-2004 00:09									#6
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hmm interesting thanks!

	22-12-2004 20:10									#7
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quote: Originally posted by binTravkin he can reach magical +5economy with GA

Magical +5 Econ? I understand the magic nature of the +2 Econ, but what is so special about +5....other than just more of the same?

The SMAC manual lists+5 Econ as:

quote: "5 +1 energy/sq; +4 energy/base; +3 commerce"

More is better and all, I just don't see the magic.

	22-12-2004 21:36									#8
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quote: More is better and all, I just don't see the magic.

+5 econ is maximum you can get

If you can get +5 econ, it's sure you can quickly become a planetary governor (due your superior economy)
and therefore you have effectively +4 Commerce, +1 energy per each commerce transaction, +big base energy output to get the commerce at max levels..

Then just go enslave an AI or 2, give them CPs so that their base count = your and enjoy the cash flow.

Especially useful with ICS - the tighter the better (as you get more bases).

And DOESN'T work without Planetary Trade Pact, but usually that's not a big problem..

In other words - commerce can do magic if you know how to use it..

	22-12-2004 22:04									#9
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Personally, I love Morgan not for his potential to get 3 or higher ECON, but for the ability to get +2 ECON w/o FM...

FM really has its drawbacks, even if you're experienced and know how to handle them.

	22-12-2004 23:36									#10
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I've found that FM Wealth is best in the early game when you are still expanding, especially if you are playing a builder and wouldn't build many police units anyway. Even with Zak the drone problems don't seem to be that bad as long as you put ten percent or so to psych.

	22-12-2004 23:46									#11
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quote: Personally, I love Morgan not for his potential to get 3 or higher ECON, but for the ability to get +2 ECON w/o FM... FM really has its drawbacks, even if you're experienced and know how to handle them.

Yes, momentum Morgan (PS/Green/Wealth) sometimes makes me fall out of my chair..

	23-12-2004 02:15									#12
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Like I said, more of the same. Not to discount what is there, I just didn't see the "magic". To me, the jump in income between a +1 Econ and a +2 Econ is "magic".

Say you have 10 cities at level 7, and 5 workers each.
Let's say for the sake of simplicity, 1 energy per square worked. Under a +1 Econ you would be taking in 50 worked + 30 base = 80 energy. Under +2 Econ you pull in 100 worked + 30 base = 130 energy.....a 62% increase.

Verses at a +4 Econ.... 100 worked + 40 base = 140 energy. At a +5 Econ 100worked + 60 base = 160 energy at only a 15% increase.

Now of course there is also the extra income through commerce, but that income can potentially be zero depending on the circumstances. Commerce income can be very low if your pactmates are not very built up. Any income that inconsistant I see as "gravy" on top of my real, steady income. I never use that kind of unsteady income to decide which SE to choose. I could likely make as much trolling for worms as I could in commerce.

I wish 3+ Econ had greater benefits to make FM more attractive to Morgan. I wouldn't be against +4 per base at a 4 Econ and a +8 per base or more for a 5 Econ.

	23-12-2004 02:19									#13
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ok, ok it's just a question of taste - I found myself in rather a superior position in most games as soon as I can support +5 economy..

That's just expierence..

	23-12-2004 03:59									#14
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The stated benefits of econ are incorrect. The actual benefits, based on my observation, are:

+3 Econ: +1 energy/sq, +1 commerce, +2 energy/base
+4 Econ: +1 energy/sq, +2 commerce, +4 energy/base
+5 Econ: +1 energy/sq, +3 commerce, +4 energy/base

	23-12-2004 12:31									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory The stated benefits of econ are incorrect. The actual benefits, based on my observation, are: +3 Econ: +1 energy/sq, +1 commerce, +2 energy/base +4 Econ: +1 energy/sq, +2 commerce, +4 energy/base +5 Econ: +1 energy/sq, +3 commerce, +4 energy/base

You are not entirely correct. The complete list, this comes directly from alpha.txt, I don't know if this is changed in alphax.txt (SMACX), this is the SMAC economy rating.

#SOCECONOMY
-3, -2 energy each base
-2, -1 energy each base
-1, -1 energy at HQ base
0, Standard energy rates
1, +1 energy each base
2, +1 energy each square!
3, +1 energy each square; +1 commerce rating!!
4, +1 energy/sq; +2 energy/base; +2 commerce!!!
5, +1 energy/sq; +4 energy/base; +3 commerce!!!!

	23-12-2004 16:42									#16
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Major Guz, to the best of my knowledge the #SOCECONOMY values in SMACX do not correspond to the actual ECONOMY effects in the game. To this, Chaos Theory's observations seem indeed correct.

This thread also addresses the ECONOMY settings issue.

	23-12-2004 19:57									#17
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Indeed, seeing the other thread backed by observations, I must say that I was in error. My apologies.
Another fine example of actual game differences and alpha.txt entries.

Thanks for pointing it out.
Now I see why going to +3 econ can be better. I never did it because the +1 commerce (which I thought to be the only improvement over +2 econ) was not worth the SE shift.
With Morgan I mostly only use wealth to be able to rake in +1 energy/sq without the extra drones.

Thanks guys, and may I add a merry christmas and a happy newyear to all of you!

Guz

	23-12-2004 20:17									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory The stated benefits of econ are incorrect. The actual benefits, based on my observation, are: +3 Econ: +1 energy/sq, +1 commerce, +2 energy/base +4 Econ: +1 energy/sq, +2 commerce, +4 energy/base +5 Econ: +1 energy/sq, +3 commerce, +4 energy/base

This actually reinforces my point further. This means the only difference between a 4 and a 5 Econ is a little commerce. And most if not all of that would be eaten by psych.

	23-12-2004 20:32									#19
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well.. +1 commerce can mean very much if you have 2 submissive pactmates with the same basecount.
Even if they are underdeveloped..

	23-12-2004 23:08									#20
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FM for Morgan works best only if you assign enough cash for psych to trigger GAs Combine it with Demo and Creches and voila! loads of cash and pop boom... I'm loving it!

	31-12-2004 09:41									#21
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Yes, Morgan with police state, green and wealth is my favorite! Simply put, I love having a positive ecology rating. It makes everything so much easier for me - plus this set up usually puts me in yang and dierdre's good graces. Also, can be switched to democracy if I've expanded quite wide.

	31-12-2004 17:28									#22
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Firstly I think Morgan should always run Wealth.
I much prefer Fundie with Morgan than Police State. It's pretty simple, with Fundie you can get elite probes very easily and elite military once you have creches in place - exactly the same as if you had 0 morale (ie you need CC+BioC+Monolith/Trained). This elite military is expensive to mind control, both because of the probe bonus and Morganite cash stockpiles. The combination of piles of cash, elite military and elite probes is hard to beat.
The only penalty is -2 research, well guess what - you have cash to buy research from friends, and probes to steal it from enemies. And +2 Econ will more than cover the -2 Research - you wont be researching slower than those with low Econ and 0 Research.
From Fundy, Democracy is a painless switch, unlike with PS where you can become dependent on the police.

Whether to go FM or Green depends on taste, with Green you round out the trinity of military power with bonuses to psi and can use police and get some effic gains - while still having +2 Econ!!! With Free Market you get scads of cash especially with commerce, and the value of this is hard to understate. Green is definitely good if you have no allies because that means lots of fighting and no commerce - it's also good if you missed out on the VW & HGP but maybe got the LLV. But with a pactmate or two "Punishing" Free Market starts to look very attractive, try Fundie/FM/Wealth and build punishment spheres @ military bases and I guarantee you'll be impressed. As an added bonus, you can pretend to be America.

The main factor that favors PS over Fundie is ironically in peace time, early in the game the extra support (and maybe police) is very useful to keep your expansion going while the -2effic hardly hurts (it's like trading 1 or 2 energy for 2 minerals per base...). Demo is ruled out because it kills your support, fundie doesn't help at all if you don't need to fight anyone. But I still only use PS if I happen to get it early, say it's blind research, or Yang is my neighbour and I get it off him. Especially if I want to be pals with Yang.

	31-12-2004 20:17									#23
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Only problem with the above senerio is in a multiplayer game attempting to steal research inevitably starts a a war (since you can't do it without the other guy finding out) that you might not be able to deal with depending on your situation.

	01-01-2005 12:02									#24
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I heard about that error, where in multiplayer, is someone asks you to get out of their territory, the AI makes the decision for you, which can make you go to war instead of just moving your units. Same thing with probe teams, the AI decides to reprimand with war, not the human player...

By the way, does this error occur on civ, because I played multi with a friend on Napoleonic Europe conquest and the next turn we were all at war, and it wasn't because of mutual protection pacts...