16-01-2005 16:42									#31
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It would be handy if another member of the team posted an opinion

If this remains between you and me, here is my opinion:
- my save is better, but the difference is very slight;
- we chose your save at 3000BC, my save at 2000BC, why not your save at 1000BC?

I am ready to start playing from your save.

	17-01-2005 06:59									#32
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Cheers, Lads!!

For now, I am back from the hospital, but, I don't think I will be of much help. When I try to compare between your saves, I just get confused. Both of you seem to be playing well. I like the idea of incorporating trade in the overall strategy. More than that I can't say. Good luck!!

Monk

	17-01-2005 11:14									#33
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Hurray you're back! That little "checkup" turn out to be more than they hinted?

We need a bit more "bloody-mindedness" here...

	17-01-2005 13:20									#34
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Cheers, Monk

Happy to see you back

Just look at us:

and relax

	17-01-2005 23:55									#35
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If we are then I should be - I thought we were ...

Comparisons:
LF@1000: 8 cities, 4 settlers, 6 caravans, 2 frigates, 5 Trireme chain to English;
2 more frigates plus 1 caravan completing next turn;
1 hidden Silk mined, 1 working;
got MonoTheism, researching Masonry (toward ?);
war with Zulus (got HG), alliances with English (got Nav) and Mongols, no Egypt maps;

El@1000: 9 cities, 7 settlers, 6 caravans, 5 Trireme chain to English;
1 caravan (or frigate) completing next turn (up to 5 in 2 turns);
3 hidden Silks mined, 2 more close;
got MonoTheism, researching WarCode (toward SunTzu);
war with Mongols(partial map), peace and maps with rest.

	18-01-2005 03:46									#36
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Of course we are
but I thought the Monk would probably find more enjoyable.

Anyway OnS should be having a look at our saves right now IIRC (and I am ready to play from your save ).

	18-01-2005 04:57									#37
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Hmmm looking for a smilie with three or four faces...

but I think that the message would be premature.

	18-01-2005 05:22									#38
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Hmmm tough choice -- LF is rated as Moderate & Ele ranks in at Inadequate.

I'm thinking that we should milk the 2.42 advantages wherever possible (hence how about more allies?)

Iirc, since the world has knowledge of Inv & Nav, aren't the trading bonuses already reduced (reference to a prior discussion)?

Regardless, I see no reason not to use Ele's save, so I'll play a little with that one & see what occurs.

	18-01-2005 21:04									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Old n Slow Hmmm looking for a smilie with three or four faces...

Well, there's - and we could put either or next to it to make 4...

But this might be most appropriate for the next turnset:

	18-01-2005 21:14									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Old n Slow Hmmm tough choice -- LF is rated as Moderate & Ele ranks in at Inadequate.

Funny, because mine has more cities and more settlers...

quote: I'm thinking that we should milk the 2.42 advantages wherever possible (hence how about more allies?)

The problem I've always had with alliances in a conquest game is the "return home" thing when you break them...

quote: Iirc, since the world has knowledge of Inv & Nav, aren't the trading bonuses already reduced (reference to a prior discussion)?

We have not taken either yet, to keep the deliveries to English higher, but both civs are on our "next up" list, and we really want Nav for Magellans (both saves have 6/8 caravans waiting, although I was preparing to send a few more to the English).

quote: Regardless, I see no reason not to use Ele's save, so I'll play a little with that one & see what occurs.

Mine it is. Next round is 20 turns to 500BC. Did Peaster set a due date?

I'd suggest if a Dip in London does not show they are near building Magellans we take out Hastings (wish it had been one tile SE, but I think it was from a hut). Once we get our hands on HG those 7 settlers can become cities (the two on the Hill south of Hispalis were about to start mining - probably a dumb last-minute idea). Once we take Nav the delivery bonus will halve, so you may want to fatten the coffers beforehand.

	19-01-2005 02:58									#41
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Hmmm I feel like I'm playing with my weak suit -- speed was never my forte...


But you never know...

	19-01-2005 03:39									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Elephant Next round is 20 turns to 500BC. Did Peaster set a due date?

IIRC he wrote 20.01.05, which means thursday, the day after TOMORROW

	19-01-2005 16:59									#43
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A few more caravans to English cities in order to get some cash for rushbuilding. Then a mix of frigates and caravans (precisely 6 caravans in order to build STWA as soon as we get Feudalism from the English). Then frigates (until we own 12). Then 8 caravans for Magellan.
3 civs (English, Persians, Vikings) destroyed.

Situation at 500BC:
22 cities (20 left to conquer); 15 frigates; 6 crusaders.
Thebes, Samarkand, Elephantine and Mpondo to be conquered next turn.

Attachment: ca_b500.sav
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

	20-01-2005 00:26									#44
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Dispensing with the usual exhaustive log:

At 500BC:
- Got 19 cities (6 captured), 3 settlers, 8 frigates, 7 crusaders, 6 horse, 2 diplomats
- Captured HangGardens, built SunTzu and Magellans
- Killed Vikings, French, Persians (both colors restarted)
- Cities left: Zulus 4, Germans 1, Egypt 6, Amer (1), English 7, Mongol 6 = 25

I sent Frigates and Horse toward Zululand and Vikeland, after the English gave me what I wanted without a fight. I kept them around for quick caravan deliveries, but found little use for them as most caravans went toward SunTzu or Magellans (or got switched to warfighters). Once the easy coastal cities were in my hands the fighting bogged down. The Zulus rebuilt their capital inland (which I've surrounded and should take in a couple turns), but they are researching Gunpowder so Bapedi needs to be taken ASAP. The English build the GreatLibrary, and when the Americans restarted they reaped all the techs they were missing. Trondheim seems to be a magnet for Mongol Catapults for some reason, too.

Elephant's 500BC save:

Attachment: ca_b500.sav
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

	20-01-2005 06:51									#45
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Some thoughts after reviewing LF's 500BC save:

Questions:
- Why didn't you contact the Germans?
- Why are you taking Samarkand rather than Ulundi?
- Are One&Half frigates enough for Thebes&Eleph? One Crusader each?
- Are Zimbabwe & Hlobane OK with several Zulu units nearby?
- Where is the frigate from Hastings going (NE of Romeland)?
- Where is the frigate from Nottingham going (East of England)?
- Why are you researching Physics - Steam?
- Why are you sitting on so much gold?
- Is 40% Lux really necessary? More gold instead?

Other comments:
- Frigate by Washington has no land unit
- Bapedi building Leos, and Zulus researching Gunpowder biggest threat
- Ships by Samark and Mpondo carrying Pikes - cannot land&take
- Not enough Crusaders
- Replace ships holding cities with Pikes

	20-01-2005 13:46									#46
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Interesting questions

1) Germans
The German civ is very young (no German city yet). If I get their map now, no one else will know where they are. I prefer waiting one more turn.

2) Samarkand
I would like to acquire Nishapur very soon (only coastal city close to Thebes and the core of the Egyptian civ). If I manage to take Samarkand and Kashgar, it will be much safer.
Ulundi will be a piece of cake within a few turns (2 frigates in Samarkand + 1 in Zimbabwe).

3) Thebes and Elephantine
Vet frigates won't die and there are reinforcements close by. If one attack fails, it will mean 1 or 2 turns delay, no more: worth trying IMO.

4) Zimbabwe and Hlobane
Safe? IMO: yes (phalanx = weak attack, legion = 1 move; if the legions move, they are dead).

5) Frigate from Hastings
Probably going to (21,45) in order to take 2 crusaders onboard (built in Pompei and Viroconium), then sail towards Washington.

6) Frigate from Nottingham
Sailing east (explore + get closer the Zulu coast where a new Zulu coastal city might appear)

7) Research Physics
= fun (discovery in 140 turns )

8) "so much gold"
Just enough gold to bribe one or two cities that would appear somewhat complicated to attack with crusaders.

9) 40% lux necessary?
Certainly not. All we need is gold from now on.

10) Frigate by Washington
Was on its way to Elephantine when Washington was discovered; killed the defender for the fun of it (we are atrocious now )

11) Biggest Threat
Mpondo is ours next turn. Ulundi will be 3-4 turns later.
Poor Zulus are so poor that we can probably buy the remaining cities with the treasury we own now. I don't feel scared.

12) Cannot land and take
I hope the frigates will be able to empty the cities.

13) Too few crusaders
= perfectly right (priority was given to frigates in order to rule the seas, building crusaders is the new priority)

14) Replace ships by pikemen
= perfectly right

	20-01-2005 13:48									#47
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LF,

Elle has posed many questions. I suppose you could as well about his save. The answers would be instructive on all sides, I am sure.

Both of you are having a few problems with martial law, it seems. The most pregnant concern is the Zulu's researching Guns. Does anyone recall when they started this research or about how long their research has been taking??

Elle,
One thing to remember about pikes on boats. They are clumsy attack units, but if the Frigate drops the city flag with its assault, then they can walk directly off the boat into (and thereby capture) the empty city. And since they are pretty good defenders, it is not a bad plan by any means.

Hopefully, brother OnS will weigh in with another save and then it will be very interesting sorting out the way to go from here. Wish I was up to playing as this is looking like good fun.

Monk

	20-01-2005 14:25									#48
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2 questions about Elephant's 500 save:
1) 2 vet horsemen onboard frigates south of Intombe: do you intend to attack Bapedi with these?
2) What use a shipchain to England now?

	20-01-2005 19:24									#49
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Great work from both of you! I'm almost hesitant to play at all!



However, I think that I'll be unable to resist at least a few turns...then when done/satisfied I'll look at your two saves & vote accordingly.

	20-01-2005 20:56									#50
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LF's questions:

1- I was hoping to take down Intombe first (which is the new capital) before taking on Bapedi. Both of them are inland; Zimb,Ulu and Mpo are rushing Crusaders. There are a couple Dips in the area as well, but my treasury was low.

2- I was sending the occasional high-pay caravan (Silk, Gems, Wine) over to the English for a quick bonus. Have not done so in a while, and drawn down the treasury for rushing and bribing. The French respawned on that narrow island north of Romeland, and now the Americans are even farther north. I was figuring on making a final round of Frigates and Horse in Romeland to take out the English once there was enough strength overseas to finish off the Mongols and Egyptians.

Overall, though, I think LF's looks better than mine. English are not necessary, he's got more frigates in better positions, and he's made more progress on the Mongols. I had two Blue restarts and one Cyan; perhaps we should leave them till we've reduced the Green, Yellow and Purple, then spread out and pick off restarted settlers.

	21-01-2005 06:13									#51
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All alone in third place is my crude attempt.

This is my first time playing with frigates to any degree -- also I'm unused to the fast conquest concept.

Didn't toggle science down until 950 BC; in 900 BC, talked to the English & swapped Phil for Feud.

Completed Sun Tsu in 825 BC -- starting cranking out Pikes, Dips and a few Frigates.

Next bunch of turns delivered camels; founded Lutia (because there were so many Settlers just hanging around...)

Started action vs England in 725 BC -- Bought a few English cities alnog the way, but since they all were ports, I think that the Frigate/Pike trick would have been the better way to go.

Wasted some trireme turns searching for Warwick (discovered around 550 BC, bought next turn.)

Lost a couple of guys to the invading barbs, but it looks like Viro will be ok.

Haven't looked at the other saves yet, but I'll vote with the majority (as in any but mine.)

Attachment: ca_b5os.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	22-01-2005 00:43									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk The most pregnant concern is the Zulu's researching Guns. Does anyone recall when they started this research or about how long their research has been taking??

I'll check my log.

quote: Elle, One thing to remember about pikes on boats. They are clumsy attack units, but if the Frigate drops the city flag with its assault, then they can walk directly off the boat into (and thereby capture) the empty city.

(that's what you get when you invite OCCers into EC fests...)

	22-01-2005 01:26									#53
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At 1000BC the Zulus were researching Math. In my game they finished Math in 725BC, switching to Guns. I had taken out Zimbabwe, Ulundi, and Hlobane beforehand, and Mpondo fell closer to 500BC. LF did not take Ulundi yet.

	22-01-2005 16:23									#54
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OnS
I have had a look at your save, and my question is about your choice of units:
25 pikemen (+ 13 under building), 5 diplomats (+ 4 under building), 0 crusaders = your only striking force is 6 frigates.
I suppose that most of your pikemen are there for martial law. Have you tried running with more than 0% luxuries (or Elvises)?

	23-01-2005 00:48									#55
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I think Old n Slow's mistake was not to make Hanging Gardens his primary target. He does not have a lot of trade arrows in most cities, so Lux would have to be set quite high to help with unhappiness. Pikes are his fallback option, along with Elvi. His small Frigate fleet is together, rather than scattered, but I would have sailed west toward the sea between Mongols and Zulus rather than east (was that to get the last English city?). The main cities accessible via sea attack are on the eastern side. On the plus side, he's got a decent treasury for rush buying (and a few English improvements he could sell off too) and he's got Chivalry.

	23-01-2005 02:07									#56
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I was heading east -- aiming for the Zulus. Plan was to take out all of the ports (slowing their science) and then if desired, using the frigates as a ship chain. Zim is a port, (thus the Frigates may work) and when the capital is gone...

Depending upon prices, we can either rush a few crux or buy our way through Zulu world, hoping to nab them before Gun is an available tech for all.

Besides, once we're in Zulu world, we ARE west!

Since the Vikes only have the one city, I figured to ignore them.

	23-01-2005 02:14									#57
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Yup, HG is the next target -- (But England was sort of in the way.)

As far as pikes & dips in process, the key was to be building units -- they can be turned into crux, frigs or camels if desired.

On the other hand, there is no GL in my world...

	24-01-2005 03:44									#58
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Stu has suggested that the next turnset go only 10 turns, to 250BC. AFAIK nobody has started playing this turnset yet, so I have made no objection. Please check the main thread for updates on this, and post your opinions or objections there.

EDIT: This idea has been vetoed. Please play to 1ad as planned.

Last edited by Peaster on 24-01-2005 at 05:39

	24-01-2005 04:42									#59
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So we're using LF's 500BC save, right?

	24-01-2005 05:26									#60
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I used it...
with fine results
(though I hope yours will be even better

Details tomorrow (which means today, since it is well over midnight by my watch )