24-01-2005 21:05									#61
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OK with me -- I'll look at it tonight.

	24-01-2005 22:12									#62
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I took Thebes, Elephantine, Samarkand and Mpondo on the first turn, as expected.
Taking care of the Zulus before they discovered Gunpowder was then a priority:
425: Ngome
400: Ulundi
325: Intombe
275: Bapedi (before completion of LW )
250: Isandlwana ( before discovery of Gunpowder )

I prepared the final attack against the Mongols and the Egyptians in the meantime, but respawning was terrible.
Only one example: the Indians restarted as Indians SIX times in a row.

Nevertheless, conquest was achieved in 50bc.

I hope one of you can finish sooner (for example with milder respawning) but I don't think the "golden" team will manage a BC victory

My friends, I bet we are going to win this game

Attachment: ca_b50.sav
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	25-01-2005 20:57									#63
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Shuck La Fayette - you could just be right there! Despite destroying 15 civilizations I still have three left at 1AD -- they go by 40AD, but who can tell about the spawns? Mayhap my homies will improve on my offering, but meanwhilst you have my congratulations.

Stu

	25-01-2005 21:46									#64
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Congratulations La Fayette and Team 2.42 ! This is quite a surprise to me, that you could defeat superior tribes so quickly.

But the game is not over until Thursday. Not all the MGE players have posted yet.

Stu - Of course, you should not report La Fayette's result to the MGE team until they are done.

	25-01-2005 22:23									#65
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Naturally - I only cheated (and that only on this page) since the game is now over - virtually in our case - actually in this case

Stu

	26-01-2005 11:18									#66
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La Fayette the Great!!

What a nice game you played for us. Congratulations!! This strategy using
Frigates is so beautiful. I can't believe it hasn't come up before...at least in my recollection. Everyone knows about Super Ironclads but Frigates carrying troops pack a mean punch, too. Was this strategy used in the past, maybe by SG(2)?? Also, I was very impressed by your usage of 40% Lux rather than wasting time and money on building martial law units...very lean.

Perhaps someone will yet finish earlier than your game, but this is fantastic!! Thanks for bringing glory to Team 242.

It is probably evident to those who have actually played the game as contrasted with my relatively superficial involvement, so please excuse this question if it is silly. I was wondering about the English Trade Experiment. How valuable was it?? How much in gold and beakers did it bring in, and did this prove to be a good trade-off rather than building attack units in place of those camels?? Why did you wipe them out so early rather than keep them around for the bonuses??

Monk

	26-01-2005 13:34									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk La Fayette the Great!! I was wondering about the English Trade Experiment. How valuable was it?? How much in gold and beakers did it bring in, and did this prove to be a good trade-off rather than building attack units in place of those camels?? Why did you wipe them out so early rather than keep them around for the bonuses?? Monk

1) Coming from someone of your skill, the compliment makes me blush

2) Elephant also made use of a lot of trade with the English. I cannot speak for him (but he writes so detailed logs that he will certainly be able to explain exactly what he did).
As far as I am concerned, the trigger was that, when I discovered London, it was size 8 and a shipchain of 5 triremes was enough to deliver there.
I sent about 8 caravans to London, each of them bringing about 200 gold and beakers, which proved to be very useful for building quickly the strong "frigates Navy" I was wishing to own.
My mistake was not to delay getting Navigation. I had given a high priority to building Magellan, but I could have waited a few more turns and delivered a few more camels with "early trade" bonus.
IMO Magellan was our winning wonder (rough calculation: 15 frigates, 6 moves each = 15*6 = 90 "Navy power" against 11 frigates, 4 moves each for the "golden" team = 4*11 = 44; our Navy was about twice as powerful as theirs in the endgame), but it wasn't required at the beginning, since the English, the Zulus and the Mongols were not very far from our main island.

	27-01-2005 00:06									#68
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After reading LF's hint of the 23rd, I started planning for a 100BC finish. I did better than that, finishing the last major civ in 150 BC, but underestimated the restarts:

475BC: take Thebes, Samark, Mpondo, Eleph
450BC: BYZANT founded
425BC: take Ngome
400BC: BRUND founded; take Athens, Greeks gone; Carth restart NW of Germans
375BC: take Ulundi, Washington, Americans gone; Chinese restart NW of Germans
...take Berlin, Germans gone - NO BLUE RESTART!
350BC: take Nishapur, Heliopolis
325BC: take Intombe(Zulu capital)
300BC: bribe Tabriz
275BC: take Bapedi, Kabul(razed), Memphis
250BC: take Carthage, Carth gone - NO ORANGE RESTART! (kill French Phalanx?)
225BC: take Canton, Kashgar; kill Chinese settler, Americans restart same isle
200BC: take Isandl, ZULUS GONE; Babs restart NW isle
175BC: take Nanking, EGYPT GONE; Aztecs restart NW isle
...kill Bab settler, Japs respawn, kill Jap settler - NO GREEN RESTART!
150BC: take Aleppo, MONGOLS GONE, Indians restart NW isle
...kill Aztec settler, Spanish restart same isle
125BC: kill Spanish settler, Spanish restart same isle
...kill American settler - NO CYAN RESTART!
100BC: kill Indian settler, Sioux restart same isle
...kill Sioux settler, Sioux restart same isle
...kill Spanish settler, Aztecs restart same isle
75BC: kill Aztec settler, Aztecs restart SAME SPOT
...kill Sioux settler, Sioux restart same isle
...kill Sioux settler again - NO PURPLE RESTART!
50BC: kill Aztec settler, Spanish restart same isle
...kill Spanish settler, Aztecs restart same isle
...kill Aztec settler - NO YELLOW RESTART!

Every single restart in this period was on the same island! Eventually I just honeycombed it with Crusaders ashore and Frigates along the coast. I was trying to rush two Settlers there too, but the end came before they made it. I'm also puzzled about the French Phalanx - I found it after the Germans had been wiped out without a Blue restart. Must have been a NONE, but odd that it continued even after their settler was killed.

And my final save:

Attachment: ca_b50.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

Last edited by Elephant on 27-01-2005 at 00:17

	27-01-2005 00:41									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk This strategy using Frigates is so beautiful. I can't believe it hasn't come up before...at least in my recollection. Everyone knows about Super Ironclads but Frigates carrying troops pack a mean punch, too.

One difference here was that Peaster gifted key techs like Nav, Mag, and Inv to different AI civs. Once we got hold of Nav and Mag we exploited them much earlier than a regular game could have. More often by the time Mag is developed someone is researching Guns, or it's just a short hop to more powerful Ironclads.

quote: Also, I was very impressed by your usage of 40% Lux rather than wasting time and money on building martial law units...very lean.

In conjunction with HG Lux makes more sense, especially when the cities start piling up and black faces appear. The problem I often faced was lack of trade arrows in cities for Lux to work on. Elvis was the solution then, while the city slowly built Pikes to carry the martial law burden. I reserved most gold for rushbuying Crusaders.

quote: It is probably evident to those who have actually played the game as contrasted with my relatively superficial involvement, so please excuse this question if it is silly. I was wondering about the English Trade Experiment. How valuable was it?? How much in gold and beakers did it bring in, and did this prove to be a good trade-off rather than building attack units in place of those camels?? Why did you wipe them out so early rather than keep them around for the bonuses?? Monk

LF and I both made a Trireme chain to the English. I found the beakers almost as useful as the gold to speed the way to Philosophy and MonoTheism. After that I was thinking of Physics and Steam, but the payoffs were less after taking Nav for Magellans and I did not feel the diversion of resources was worth it.

I would put SunTzu, Magellan and MarcoPolo as the three key wonders. MPE gave us access to the key advanced techs and filler techs we needed from the AI, as well as helping track down the restarted civs quickly. The SunTzu effect on ships was very important to the invincibility of Frigates, and Magellans helped in moving them around, although most times I was leaving them in captured ports or shuttling them between the Zulu north shore and the Mongol south shore. Getting to the Egyptians was the longest haul, but aside from taking down Thebes most of that battle was inland.

	27-01-2005 01:46									#70
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Nice job, Elephant! Congratulations again to Team 2.42 on an excellent game. It seems awfully hard to slow you human types down much .

	27-01-2005 03:37									#71
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All right x 2!

I've read the above logs, so I won't play & post for score; I was wondering, though about a hint that Smash used -- founding cities to a) forestall restarts and b) provide close locations for quick unit rushes.

Do early conquesters use that tactic? Although an after thought -- such cities might also help attract our good friends the barbarians, who are famous for ending itty bitty civs.

	27-01-2005 21:36									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Old n Slow I've read the above logs, so I won't play & post for score; I was wondering, though about a hint that Smash used -- founding cities to a) forestall restarts and b) provide close locations for quick unit rushes.

1) I posted too soon and that stopped you. I feel sorry.

2) Founding cities doesn't forestall restarts: it makes the AI restart somewhere else, away from cities.
IMO the best strategy is to keep an area unbuilt, hoping that the restarts will occur there, and have a number of units close by, ready to kill the new settlers as soon as they appear (this is in fact what Elephant and I did, almost unwillingly, in this game, where almost all restarts were concentrated on the Northern island).

	28-01-2005 03:15									#73
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Elephant...the also Great!!

Excellent wind up, Elle. I did not mean to slight you with my post about La Fayette's ending save. You and he played a terrific game, both contributing to the finish. Too bad about all the restarts or you would have succeeded in posting a better time, something I thought might be possible by you. He just posted sooner.

About Frigates...the thing that impressed me was how effective they were in taking down coastal cities, ala Ironclads. They are cheaper, and in many of my earlier games I have been so far ahead of AI Civs in Science that the Musk problem you noted would not have been a concern. Just never really thought about using them that way before. In fact, I seldom built Frigates, so this was quite a nice surprise.

Nice game, fellows!!

Monk

	28-01-2005 03:35									#74
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And thanks for your gentle reminder to duncehead here that a Warrior can capture an empty city right off the boat. I was loading Horses and Crusaders for drop-and-take operations when I could have been saving shields and protecting the cities better with Pikes. A Frigate is a fine coastal assault unit, especially when it's movement is augmented by Magellans and SunTzu automatically makes it a Vet. I often found it necessary to recuperate in just-captured cities, and one time lost a city that was protected solely by a wounded Frigate.

I think the next tournament designer will be more careful in giving Magnetism to anyone in order to obsolete the LightHouse...

And why Frigates were not made dependent on Gunpowder escapes me - their attack strength is based on cannon, not throwing rocks. But I can live with it...

	28-01-2005 11:49									#75
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The Monk has been a learned advisor: Thank you, Monk!
OnS joined us somewhat late, but we were really happy that he did: Thank you, OnS!
Elephant and I had almost the same view on the general strategy. That made our robust constructive discussions very efficient: thank you, Elephant!

... not to forget Peaster who provided an interesting challenge: thank you, Peaster!

	05-02-2005 01:27									#76
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I want to echo La Fayette's thanks and include him with the appropriate smiles and back pats.