21-12-2004 23:17									#1
	Caesar Succession Game: 2.42 team SPOILER Inflate your Upload Space

Someone had to start the 2.42 thread before thursday, so why not me ?

PEOPLE FROM THE MGE TEAM NOT WELCOME TO READ THIS






I know that Elephant (and also the Monk, I hope ) is going to study the hidden specials very thoroughly, so I made it simple:
- build the capital away from the coast (for better protection and minimizing corruption),
- make good use of the river,
- beeline to Monarchy ("3 arrows" strat).

This "simple" start provides 4 cities in 2950 (fourth city to be built where the settler stands) and Monarchy in 2950 or 2900 (ability to switch to Monarchy in 2900).

Attachment: ca_b3000.sav
This has been downloaded 16 time(s).

	22-12-2004 10:25									#2
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La Fayette,

I have your save and will look at it for ideas about "hiddens", etc, as soon as possible. You seem to have done well with your city placement. The other river looks inviting, too. Find and note the plot of a hut (or a previous one??) and I can tell more about where to look for specials.

Point/Question: Since this is conquest, do you want to take the time to 'forest up the Specials' anyway??

Hopefully, Elle will jump in so that you are not on your own. Though, I have every confidence in your effort.

Monk

	24-12-2004 07:13									#3
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Here is my save. At 3000BC I have 4 cities (one was AT), three Settlers about to complete, three Warriors, and am already in Monarchy. About 75% of the coast is explored, one Whale has been found and another is near (map analysis), and three of the cities are ports (including the capital). I am researching Maps to get ships in the water next, if we do not continue with another round of Settlers. Writing would seem wise afterwards, or Horse, to put something on those ships.

Attachment: ca_b3000.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	24-12-2004 14:32									#4
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IMO Elephant's save is better than mine (grace to the lucky AT of course ).
My proposal is to keep it as our common start for the 3000-2000 millenium.

	24-12-2004 21:43									#5
	Increase Your PM Length

I think I had Monarchy before the AT. I'll check my log...

	24-12-2004 23:25									#6
	Remove this text

Guys,

Good starts!! I concur that Elephant has the better one, though I would prefer La Fayette's spacing for that Western most city. One tile from the Capital is a bit tight. I bet you were leaving that wet shield grass tile open in case there was a special hidden there. With the hut location, it is now clear, from Hutfinder, that there are many hidden specials, but not that tile.

Is it possible to PM with an attachment?? If not, I will post a map of the hidden tiles, here. Or Elle can. I will be out of touch for at least the next three days. They are taking me to hospital in about an hour--just tests, nothing critical. Or so I am told. I think it is a substitute for the 'away for the holidays' caregivers, and they don't want me to be alone.

Merry Christmas fellas,

Monk

	25-12-2004 21:36									#7
	Tired of ads?

Merry Christmas to you, Monk

I just played the next millenium, with 3 objectives: grow (to 8/9 cities), explore (we need to know whether LH will be very useful at once or not) and research (Map, Horseback, then Trade).

2850: Empty English caravel in sight
2800: d.Map Making, r. Horseback Riding
2750: PISAE and RAVENNA
2700: HISPALIS
2550: d. H. Riding, r. Bronze W.
2400: VIROCONIUM
2300: d. BW, r. Currency
2250: English chariot close to PISAE will have Code of Laws. We say "yes" = peace with the English.
2100: LONDON (size 7) discovered (should be a nice trading partner)
2050: d. Currency, r. Trade

Summary of situation in 2000BC:
8 cities, land area = 145 000 sq. miles, 30 shields/turn, Trade within 5 turns (18 beakers + 9 gold/turn)

Attachment: ca_b2000lf.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	31-12-2004 20:55									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Hope Monk is doing OK...

What is our "deadline" for the next round?

	05-01-2005 02:44									#9
	Got spare money?

A little late, but here is my 4000-3000BC log:

4000bc: Warrior west- no reveal? click reveals! strange....
...move 1st Set to river, 2nd on Silk
4000bc? found ANTIUM (2 cities lost!), switch to Silk
...Roading Silk
CHINESE START PYRAMIDS!
3950bc: 52g,8b,11t@2b/22b
...PRB 1r 16g
ZULUS START LEOS (got Invention!)
3900bc: 38g,10b,11t
3850bc: 40g,12b,11t
...Road on Silk done: 8t@3b
3800bc: 42g,15b,8t
3750bc: 44g,18b,8t
...Whale to SE! reveals some patterns, but not seed
3700bc: 46g,21b,8t
...RB Size1Settler 41g, delay 2nd city
CER BURIAL; start CodeLaws
3650bc: 7g,0b,11t@3b/33b
...Size1Sett founds CUMAE; 2nd Sett founds NEAPOLIS
3600bc: 11g,7b,5t
...reorg workers 6t@6b
3550bc: 14g,13b,5t@6b/30b
3500bc: 17g,19b,5t
...PRB 1r ***,NEAP 16g
3450bc: 4g,25b,5t
CODE LAWS; start Monarchy
3400bc: 7g,0b,7t@6b/40b
...found a hut! finishes pattern seed
3350bc: 10g,6b,7t
...Hut(18,44): POMPEII
...PRB 1r ANT 8g
3300bc: 6g,13b,6t
...ANTIUM FBF
Tacitus MOST ADVANCED: #7=Romans
3250bc: 10g,20b,6t
...ANT size 2, chg to Silk
3200bc: 15g,29b,5t@9b
3150bc: 20g,38b,5t
...chg 6.0.4 8t@5b
...***,NEAP FBF
MONARCHY; start Maps
POP>100K
3100bc: 29g,4b,10t@6b/55b
...CUMAE&NAEAPOLIS size 2, reorg workers
...chg 4.0.6 7t@9b
REVOLT
Egyptians start Pyramids
MONARCHY 3.0.7 5t@12b
3050bc: 29g,4b,5t
3000bc: 34g,16b,5t

I was trying to do LF's 3 Arrow strategy using the river and the Silk, with as fast an ICS as I could justify if conditions did not look threatening. After I figured out the specials pattern I looked at hidden ones, but I'm thinking leave that for when we need to develop more shield production. After Monarchy I aimed for Maps to start ship production, but when I did the next leg I realized I could have put that off a bit in favor of Bronze or Horse or Writing, which would help the PRBing more.

	05-01-2005 02:54									#10
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Map of home island hidden specials (marked as Fur or MuskOx):

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=21954_CaesarHome.jpg

	05-01-2005 03:08									#11
	Full PM-box? Change here!

For my next leg, I wanted to continue the ICS, do a little exploring around the island, and start toward Trade. Seeing a few other civs in the neighborhood changed my priorities toward better defenses, exploring and diplomacy. I figured one advantage we have over the MGE team is better and more consistent potential relations with AI civs, so why not exploit that until we decide to switch over to nasty? As it turned out, I got Navigation from the English, peace with them, the Mongols and the Zulus, 11 cities and 2/3 of the way to Trade. One city has started on a Wonder (Lighthouse, but we can change later), and my three ships are Caravels. I suspect the Mongols and Zulus have some advanced techs like Magnetism and Ironworking, but they were unwilling to trade. I did get their maps, however - but the English refused to divulge. They seem to be southeast of us, and at least two cities have been on and off the TOP5 list. Happiness has been a problem, too, due to number of cities. I was hoping one of the AI civs might have Pottery but no luck (despite the English having Seafaring). A bit of time and another gift might get something out of the western neighbors.

Here's the log:
Chinese near Pyramids
1st Settler CUMAE
2950bc: 25g,25b,7t/55b
Pyramids in Beijing; Egypt abandon
Settlers ANTIUM
2900bc: 29g,33b,7t
...found PISAE on river
...POMPEII FBF
Settlers NEAPOLIS
2850bc: 34g,43b,6t
...POMPEII size 2
...unladen English Caravel off south coast! (English have Nav?)
(move Warrior into Neapolis, recall 3rd)
Caravel moves east...
2800bc: 39g,53b,6t
...RB Warrior PISAE 13g
...RB 1r ANTIUM 13g
MAP MAKING; start Writing (vs Bro/Hor/Mas/Myst/Pot/War)
2750bc: 18g,8b,7t@10b/66b
...found RAVENNA with Whale
...RB 1r CUMAE 4g, 1r NEAP 13g
...ANTIUM, NEAPOLIS FBF
Egypt start HangGardens! (drat)
VIKINGS DESTROYED BY MONGOLS!!!
2700bc: 8g,25b,4t@17b
...ANT,NEAP size 2
...CUMAE FBF
English start Colossus! (hmmm)
2650bc: 15g,43b,4t
...CUMAE size 2
...PRB 1r RAV 8g
2600bc: 14g,61b,5t/78b
...PRB 1r PISAE 8g
Settlers POMPEII
WRITING; start Bronze (vs Hor/Lit/Mas/Myst/POT/War)
2550bc: 13g,0b,6t/105b
...found HISALIS (2x black Whales)
Empty Mongol Trireme north of ANTIUM!
2500bc: 20g,19b,6t
English Chariot greets POMP Settler: Receptive King Henry:
6Sp,dem Wri(no),peace,Recep,exch Wri for BRONZE,CoL for NAVIGATION (also got Hor/Myst/Sea/Wheel-but not Pot?), maps?no,bye
restart Currency (vs Hor/Lit/Mas/Myst/Pot/War)
ships upgraded
Mongol Tri goes northward
2450bc: 27g,38b,8t/135b INADEQUATE
...found VIRCONIUM by Whale
...RB 1r POMPEII,HISPALIS 13g ea
...POMPEII FBF
(no "remove troops"?)
2400bc: 9g,61b,6t@23b
...1st Caravel from ANTIUM goes westward along coast
...Cord Eng: 6Sp,withdraw?yes
...RAVENNA FBF
POP>200K
2350bc: 17g,84b,6t
...both Whales for HISPALIS revealed
English chariot still on SE knob: city there?
Settlers CUMAE
2300bc: 25g,105b,7t
...Hastings on SE island (hut-AT)
Mongols start Colossus; empty Tri north of POMPEII
2250bc: 35g,127b,7t
...CUMAE FBF
Mongol Trireme attacks POMPEII- Warrior wins
Settlers RAVENNA
CURRENCY; start Trade (vs Hor/Lit/Mas/Myst/Pot/War)
2200bc: 36g,13?b,8t@22b/170b
...found LUGDUNUM on Whale
...discovered Bokhara! Warrior ashore: Icy Emp Ghengis,4Sp,dem Nav
for peace,Neut;exch?no,gift Mon,Cur,Wri,CoL to Worsh,sh maps,end
(WOW: Zulus south of Mong, Trondheim westward!)
(6 cities; hmmm: Mongols have Horse&Galleon?)
...Cord Eng: 6Sp,dem Cur(no),gift Cur to Worsh,NOMORE!(want map)
Settler in PISAE
2150bc: 45g,35b,8t
...some RBing
...Enth Eng: 6Sp,sh maps?no,end
...PISAE FBF, start on Wonder
2100bc: 35g,60b,7t@25b
...found LUTETIA on southern canal spot
...VIRCON FBF
loaded Mongol Frigate approaches north coast!
2050bc: 14g,86b,7t
...Warrior ashore, Uncoop Queen Zulu: 3Sp,war Mong?no,dem Nav for
peace,Neut,exch?no,gift Wri,Cur to Worsh,sh maps,end
(6 cities,Legion+Pike,Trireme)
...ANTIUM(oops),HISPALIS FBF
2000bc: 17g,113b,6t@27b
...found BYZANTIUM
...RAVENNA FBF

And the save:

Attachment: ca_b2000.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

Last edited by Elephant on 05-01-2005 at 03:16

	05-01-2005 20:44									#12
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Well done Elephant ! and a nice log too (BTW what does FBF mean?).

Yet I prefer my own save at 2000BC, mostly because Navigation is a trade killer.

If we choose my save, we could build a shipchain between Viroconium and London while we finish researching Trade (5 turns), and also finish linking all our cities by road.
Then my calculations tell me that the Base Bonus of any delivery to London should be better than 20.
With 3 multipliers (foreign = 2, island = 2, early = 2), this would mean a bonus higher than 160 for delivery of any UNDEMANDED good to London (very close to the 200 science cap).

Dear partners, Elephant, Bloody Monk, Skrobism, please let me know what you think.

	05-01-2005 21:34									#13
	Support Apolyton

Jeepers, I thought this is a Conquest game...

I was not thinking about bonus payoffs, I was thinking about getting better ships (which negates the need for Lighthouse and carry 50% more) and opening up the possibility of doing Magellans as our second Wonder (after MarcoPolo). It also allowed earlier contact with the Mongols and the Zulus, who seem to have even better techs (I saw Galleons and Frigates from the Mongols). The down side of my save is that I probably overbuilt on cities - I was spending more time building and juggling martial law units that anything else at the end.

One unintended benefit of the parallel path method of play is that one player can learn things about the map and AI that is unrevealed in the chosen starting point, permitting future actions based on that knowledge even though it is still "black". Interesting possibilities...

I'll take a closer look at your save this evening.

BTW, "FBF" is shorthand for "FoodBoxFull" - the city will grow next turn, which was a big problem toward the end there. I wish F4 would put a star or something next to those cities...

	06-01-2005 01:45									#14
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"grace to the lucky AT " - and what is "AT"?

	06-01-2005 01:57									#15
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Advanced Tribe - when a Hut pops into a city. Since the huts and specials are fixed in relation to each other, it is rarely a site with decent specials, but at least this one had ocean access and some nearby rivers. Given a choice, I would have rather had a Nomad, which I would have planted on the river next-door. But huts never yield Nomads on Grass or Plains unless the surrounding terrain is really bad.

	06-01-2005 13:31									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Elephant Jeepers, I thought this is a Conquest game... .

It is !
but a tech lead and a war treasury can happen to be the right path to winning early (remember SlowThinker's victory in the "Holydays" tournament).

I fully agree that Navigation is (will be) very nice to have, but IMO it's a question of timing: without Nav we can research 1 tech/turn and acquire more than 200g/turn during quite a few turns. We are sure to be able to acquire Navigation from the English when we really need it, 12 or 15 turns later (buy it or swap it or steal it...).

	08-01-2005 01:51									#17
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Looking at LF's save, 5 of the Settlers being built will have finished before we get Trade, with a possible 6th (Trade is 4-5 turns away). Two Settlers were just finished as well, so we could have 15 cities or 10-12 cities with some roads and irrigation. With Trade we will have access to 3 Wonders: Colossus, Lighthouse, and MarcoPolo. We know where the Mongols, Zulus and Vikings are from my run (I assume the Vikings were not wiped out by the Mongols in your save). We could do a quick set of caravan trades for gold and tech, grab some extra techs and maps from MarcoPolo, and switch right over to PT and a war footing by 1500BC. Next options for techs are Mas, Mys, Pot, PT, War, Whe, Wri. I think we need Writing soon for Diplomats, but what about Pottery for HG? Did Egypt start working on it during your run? And did you sight any Mongol ships?

It would be nice if Bloody Monk were to check in and contribute an opinion as well...

	08-01-2005 14:18									#18
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Elephant We could do a quick set of caravan trades for gold and tech, grab some extra techs and maps from MarcoPolo, and switch right over to PT and a war footing by 1500BC.

I agree: this is exactly the way to go IMO
(though 1500BC is probably optimistic: I would rather guess 1200BC, since our first caravan could hardly be delivered to London before 1600BC).

Your questions:
1) I would choose PT first (not willing to build any pachyderm, but in order to be able to face any kind of nasty surprise such as a heavy Barb or sneak attack).
2) Writing is nice to have (especially for buying the third row of shields)
3) Marco and the Gardens : of course yes, if we manage to grab them both. The Lighthouse won't be much use + I suppose it is already obsolete (haven't you sighted a frigate?).

	09-01-2005 11:20									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Egyptians were building HG in my run; they may be the only ones with Pottery (I'm pretty sure English did not, despite having Seafaring). With HG, it's nice to have in your SSC but if we're not building one then let someone else build it and take it away - hopefully before the happiness issues get nasty.

I was a bit puzzled to see the star next to Lighthouse, till I saw that Mongol Galleon. Which brings up another thought: a small fleet of Frigates could do a lot of damage to AI coastal cities. Perhaps trade techs with the Mongols for Magnetism and skip Nav?

If we're going to spend some time shipping caravans to England for big delivery bonuses, we definitely need Writing for Diplomats. I'd go there first (you can always bribe Barbs), maybe Pottery second?, then PT.

	09-01-2005 13:51									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

1) HG and LH
I agree: if we don't build HG, we take it
No LH in this game: it will probably be wise to build Magellan.

2) Frigates
O yes! Anyone knows that ironclads are stronger, but why wait? Frigates do the job against any kind of defender pre-gunpowder.

3) Writing, PT and Pottery
Writing first is OK for me. No need to spend hours choosing the right order after that, since we should be able to get 1 tech/turn as soon as we start deliveries to London.

4) My mistake
BTW I notice that I wrote something wrong about trade multipliers: there is no "foreign" multiplier (there is an "internal trade" divider instead). This means that we should try to deliver DEMANDED commodities to London instead of undemanded goods, as I wrongly mentioned.

	11-01-2005 00:38									#21
	Full PM-box? Change here!

So - deliver demanded caravans to London (expecting our first delivery will probably change the demand list anyway, so say we can get something like Silk/Wine/Silver/Cloth first, then Dye/Copper/Hides second), and save undemanded caravans for MarcoPolo. Build up the treasury, swap for maps, see if we can get Writing, PolyTheism and Magnetism via tech trades, and start building Frigates and Elephants. Sounds like a worthwhile plan.

Shall we try it with your 2000 save this week?

	11-01-2005 13:32									#22
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Elephant Dye/Copper/Hides second), Shall we try it with your 2000 save this week?

Repeated Hides?: that would suit us

We must play before thursday.
Therefore I play today.

	11-01-2005 23:21									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

OTOH, do we really need all those Settlers? If we turned them all to ships we'd have a pretty good chain. My run started getting into trouble with happiness after the 9th city.

	11-01-2005 23:45									#24
	Suffering from ads?

Just played until 1000BC.

Situation at 1000BC:
We are allied with the English and the Mongols.
We are at war with the Zulus (and our high priority is to take Zimbabwe ASAP, because of the Gardens).
We have 2 frigates sailing towards Zimbabwe (2 more frigates next turn).
Magellan will be completed in Viroconium within 3 turns.
Our 4 frigates will be offshore Zimbabwe within 6 turns.

Attachment: ca_b1000lf.sav
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).

	13-01-2005 19:55									#25
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Here is my rough log of 2000-1000BC using LF's 2000BC save:

researching Trade/108b at 18b/t=6t
next want Write, then Mag or PT?
build Marco ASAP
Pyramids lost?
Power Moderate, English Neutral, peace
why keep the NONE Warrior up north?

Ravenna FBF
Egypt changes from HG to Colossus
Settlers Pisae
1950bc: 108g,~20+19b,7t/126b INADEQUATE
...Pisae FBF
Settlers NEAPOLIS,ANTIUM
1900bc: 117g,60b,7t
...NEAP,POMP FBF
Settlers Hispalis
1850bc: 100g,80b,6t@21b
...Hispalis FBF
1800bc: 70g,100b,6t
Egyptians near Colossus
TRADE; start Writing
1750bc: 20g,0b,7t@23b/150b
...Hut(29,37): NOMADS

London(#1,size8)=Dye/Cop/Hides
Nott(#5,size5)=Dye/Wine/Hides
ANT,NEAP,Hisp,Viroc supply Hides; ALL 8 supply Dye; Hisp supplies Copper; no Wine supply

...shift 7.0.3 for RB gold: 22g, 17t@9b
...Recep Eng: 5Sp,gift Tra to Cordial, withdraw?OK,end
COLOSSUS IN THEBES! English abandon
ENGLISH START MARCO POLO!
Gibbon LARGEST: #2=English, #5=Romans
1700bc: 31g,9b,17t
1650bc: 37g,18b,17t
Dye in CUMAE
1600bc: 32g,27b,17t
Hides NEAPOLIS
1550bc: 28g,36b,17t
Dye Pisae, POMPEII
1500bc: 48g,45b,17t
Hides ANTIUM
1450bc: 42g,54b,17t
...drop camel,Enthus English(4Sp) offer alliance, decline
1400bc: 34g,63b,17t
...found LUGDUNUM on west coast(offshore Whale),start Warrior
...NEAPOLIS Hides to Nott(5/Cop/Wine/Hide): 96g/b,+1TR
Nott now Hide/Wine/Silver (POMPEII)
WRITING: start PolyTheism
Hides Hispalis
1350bc: 118g,10b,15t@11b/165b
...chg 3.0.7 7t@26b
...start MarcoPolo in Hispalis, 4x caravans
MARCO POLO IN HISPALIS! ENGLISH CHANGE TO MAGELLANS!
1300bc: 80g,38b,6t@28b
======================
MARCO POLO MANIPULATION
-----------------------
Uncoop Zulu: Mon,167g,7C(Leos),11T(5white),war Mongols
Neut Vikes: Desp,128g,1C,6T(2white),war Mongols
Icy Egypt: Mon,370g,5C,19T!!!(9white!),war Mongols
Icy Persia: Mon,32g,1C,8T(2white),no contacts
Enthus English: Mon,163g,6C(Magel),14T(5white),peace Romans
Icy Mongols: Mon,373g,6C,13T(6white),war Zulu,Vike,Egypt
-----------------------
Zulu have Inv,Iro,Mas,Pot,War; res Myst (war Mong)
Vike have Mag,Myst(NO MAP); res Pot (war Mong)
Egyp have Cst,Iro,Mas,Math,Myst,PT,Pot,War,Whe; res Lit (war Mong)
Pers have Cst,PT; res Bro (no contact)
Engl have Myst,Nav,Sea,War,Whe; res Feud (peace Rome)
Mong have Cst,Iron,Math,Myst,War,Whe; res Eng (war Zul,Vik,Egypt)
-----------------------
Romans want PT(Egypt,Pers),Mag(Vikes),Pot(Zulu,Egypt),Myst(Vik
,
Egypt,English,Mong), ALL MAPS
Rom got Alp/Bro/Cer/CoL/Cur/Hor/Map/Mon/Tra/Wri; res PT
-----------------------
...Icy Pers: 0Sp,dem Bro,gift Wri,Tra to Enthus,exch Cur for
POLYTHEISM,share maps,bye
(Persia northwest, cont#5, on Ocean, 1 Settler, no defender?)
...Neut Viks: 1Sp,exch Maps for MAGNETISM,Tra for MYSTICISM, dem
Mon for peace,Cordial;sh maps,bye
(Vikes midway west/east,cont#5,on Ocean,1 Settler,Mongol Horse)
...Uncoop Zulu: 5Sp,exch Myst for POTTERY,dem Hor for peace,Neut,
gift Write to Cordial,sh maps,bye
(Zulu south of Mong,cont#25,4 Settlers,Zimbabwe walled)
...Enth Eng: 4Sp,decline ally,dem Wri to Worsh,exch?busy Magel,
sh maps,bye
(English 3 islands SE, 1 Settler, loaded caravel eastward)
...Icy Egypt: 6Sp,dem 50g for peace,Neut; gift Mag to Recep,maps?
no,end
...Icy Mong: 3Sp,war Egypt?no,dem Mag?no,WAR
-----------------------
Got all maps but Egypt and Mong (know where Mong are, so Egypt
nearby), PT,Mag,Myst,Pott, lost 50g
=======================
...CUMAE Dye to London(8/Cop/Dye/Silk): 192g/b,+2TR
London now Silk/Copper/Hides (Hispalis)
...Vircon FBF
restart Literacy
1250bc: 138g,258b,10t@28b/270b
English-Vikings at war!
Hides Vircon
LITERACY; start Philosophy
Dye NEAP, Hides CUMAE
1200bc: 73g,28b,10t@31b/288b
...ANTIUM,Pisae FBF
Dye Pisae,Silver POMPEII
POP>300K
1150bc: 37g,59b,10t
...Ravenna FBF
Hides ANTIUM
1100bc: 19g,90b,8t@31b/240b MODERATE
...Cord Egypt: 6Sp,dem Lit(no),sh maps,bye
(Egypt NW of Mongols cont#5,2 Settlers,1 Elephant, Tri out)
...Enth Eng: 4Sp,dem Lit,sh maps,bye
(wounded Chariot SW of Trond; laden Caravel(Settler?) sailing)
Zulus dev Cst, chg Leos to HG! HG IN ZIMBABWE!!! (walled!)
Mongols dev Engineering
1050bc: 18g,121b,8t
...NEAP Dye to York(4/Dye/Cop/Hide): 96g/b,+1TR
York now Hide/Cop/Gem
...Pis Dye to Canter(4/Dye/Cop/Hide): 112g/b,+1TR
Canter now Hide/Silk/Silv
...LUGDUN FBF
...Enth Eng: 4Sp,won't exchange
Mongols start KingRich
Hides LUGDUN
PHILOSOPHY: freebie MONOTHEISM; start WarCode
Gems Ravenna
1000bc: 198g,21b,11t@33b/360b

I got MarcoPolo in 1300, missed getting HangingGardens by a hair, and got MonoTheism in 1000. I delivered 4 caravans, punted on alliance with the English, got Magnetism from the Vikings, and all maps but the Mongols (got most of theirs from the others, though). I'll take a look at yours next.

And the save:

Attachment: ca_b1000.sav
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).

	13-01-2005 23:52									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

LF - looks like we followed very similar paths. I took Pottery to try for HG; you took Iron (perhaps HG was built by then?). After Phi-MT I chose WarCode (intending to swap for it from one of the others) to set up Feud for SunTzu; you chose Mas (which we can also swap for). You allied with the English and Mongols and p***ed off the Zulus; I declined several requests from the English for an alliance but p***ed off the Mongols. I see you have not gotten Nav yet; when I asked the English for a trade they refused saying "too busy with Magellans". So I left them to build it for me, focusing on Mikes and SunTzu instead.

You have two frigates done, but nothing to put on them yet. Now that we have MT we can build Crusaders - what say we rush a few and send them off? On the other hand, we can build Mikes and forget about the urgency of HG. According to Peaster, we should plan our expedition to the Egyptians first (they are the furthest - see my save) and prepare a second wave for the closer civs. Persia and Vikings should be simple; Zulus may be the next hardest to take out. Leave the English for our last wave (and milk the trade in the meantime).

One other thing I did was mine for the 4 hidden Silks. Might make my save worth considering, even if I'm a little behind in getting Frigates out.

	14-01-2005 04:56									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I agree that we followed very similar paths (but it is not surprising since we discussed strategy before playing).

1) About frigates
You wrote:
"You have two frigates done, but nothing to put on them yet."
What is required onboard when attacking a coastal city with frigates is a warrior, no more. My plan is to have a warrior (or a horseman) onboard each of the 2 frigates to be completed next turn, which should allow us to take Zimbabwe (and the Gardens inside) about 6 turns from now, and also take Ulundi about 2 turns later.

2) About wonders
- IMO, if we take the HG, Mike is a waste.
- IMO, Sun Tzu is also a waste in this game since all capitals except Karakorum are coastal. We should avoid building barracks and hurry up taking Karakorum (before walls). After that, the choice between diplomats and crusaders will be a question of money (how many costly improvements for sale in the cities we are going to conquer).
- IMO, Magellan a high priority. The sooner we get it, the better. This means I would hate waiting for the English to build it. If they refuse to give Navigation, we say No to the alliance and crush them (5 coastal cities close to us should be a piece of cake for our mighty frigates). The HG will solve happiness problems in the meantime and the core of our civ will grow from 8-9 to 13-14 cities midsize.

3) About the other civs:
- Zulus:
I chose to be at war with the Zulus because I love their capital. Once we own Zimbabwe and Ulundi, we need 1 or 2 frigates in the south to take Hlobane and Mpondo (+ 3 inland cities to buy or conquer later on, according to the size of our treasury).
- Mongols:
I would like to stop the alliance, take Samarkand and Bokhara with our 4 frigates coming from Zimbabwe and send about 4 crusaders to Karakorum ASAP. That would leave us with 4 cities to conquer with our 4 crusaders, after a nice rest in Karakorum (perhaps even buy Nishapur, in order to have a coastal city close to Thebes very soon).
- Vikings and Persians
Each of them should be very easy to conquer by 1 or 2 frigates on their way to Egypt.
- Egypt
Almost any unit built on our main island after the 3-4 frigates required to conquer England should be sailing north towards Egypt at full speed (4 frigates offshore Thebes ASAP).
- Respawns
Restarts are on: this means a number of frigates all over the world in the endgame (perhaps about 25-30 turns ahead).

	14-01-2005 19:58									#28
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

A Warrior or Horse can take the city, but holding it may be another matter. Do I remember correctly that cities attacked by ships don't lose citizens?

SunTzu would help the Frigates become vets too, wouldn't it? I agree Magellans is top priority; it may be possible to steal the tech from our "allies" via Dips faster than we can conquer, and that might preserve friendly English slaves for our 3rd expeditionary force. The second one should be heading for Egypt ASAP.

BTW, cancel the alliances early so we don't get the "local forces returned home" problem.

No word from Monk or OldNSlow lately - I'm worried about Monk...

	15-01-2005 04:00									#29
	Increase Your PM Length

1) I grant you that a warrior is a minimum; but usually one or several frigates are wounded and must rest 2-3 turns in the city, thus protecting it while you build the strong defender.

2) Cities attacked by ships don't lose citizens: that's right.

3) Sun Tzu would help the frigates become vet: that's right.

4)"it may be possible to steal the tech from our "allies" via Dips faster than we can conquer": if we are lucky (the English have several "white" techs: when stealing with a diplomat we cannot choose, while we can choose when conquering the city).

5)"I'm worried about Monk...": so am I (I was about to send a private message yesterday, but finally decided to wait a few more days)

	15-01-2005 21:27									#30
	Full PM-box? Change here!

So save the last "move" of the ship to enter the city after conquest. Haven't done that in a while... When Magnetism arrives I am usually fast-teching toward Democracy and Theory of Gravity to complete my SSC.

I had forgotten Dips cannot choose the tech stolen - my recent experience has been with Spies, stealing an off-path tech when I near SpaceFlight. But regarding techs, what is the plan behind researching Masonry - be able to build GW in case anyone starts it?

I had also forgotten to WLTKD before delivering caravans to English. Even so, I like the extra Silks and steps toward SunTzu of my save better than the Frigates in the water of yours. I'm coming around to your "take out the English" idea. Might be nice to sneak a Dip into London and see if they are close to Magellans - taking it away could save us the job of building it. Once we take down the English, though, we lose the quick delivery bonuses.