22-12-2004 22:05									#31
	Got spare money?

Xbox makes chump change compared to MS's other divisions (though it'd still be good money for most other firms).

And you say Office isn't a monopoly? Legally you may be right, but practically -- I have to question whether you work with or on computers in your job. I have never, ever seen any documents emailed back and forth that weren't one of: Word documents, Excel spreadsheets, Powerpoints, or PDFs, and I deal with a lot of different firms as a consulting engineer. Alternatives are simply not in use at the corporate level on any wide scale (or even a narrow one) that I've seen.

	22-12-2004 22:21									#32
	Inflate your Upload Space

Other programs can open those formats. There's really nothing keeping Office popular other than the fact that everything else sucks and Office is pretty good.

	22-12-2004 23:23									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Every day it seems there is some new security exploit for Windows and Redmond does virtually nothing, seeming content to sustain its bloated corpse on users' misery.

This is just silly, though -- your claim they do absolutely nothing. SP2 was absolutely nothing? It stalled all Windows development for a year to develop, it was a more cohesive update than OS X 10.3 was, and was given away for free. Further, they've been patching vulnerabilities as they're discovered.

Apple is the one who is doing "virtually nothing" -- they refuse to release individual security updates (instead waiting for a giant package so you can't install just one of them), they refuse to categorize threat levels (though third-party analysts have labeled the 17 security vulnerabilities found last month as "highly critical").

There are tons of vulnerabilities with every software platform, period. It's a fact of life with software, and especially such complex software as modern operating systems.

The difference is, no one bothers to exploit something with 2% of the marketshare (half of that being educational computers). Why would they?

quote: But as I said, they are being attacked from multiple sides by Google, OSS, etc.

They've always been under attack from multiple sides. They've competed directly with Apple, IBM, all the big names...they keep winning the consumer desktop OS market.

They are under attack, but they have enough brilliant people working for them and enough financial clout to do just about anything they want to to right the ship. Microsoft's going to be around for a long, long time, even if it's not in the businesses they started in.

This whole talk about the browser business is kinda moot. Internet Explorer doesn't really matter to MS anymore -- its purpose was to combat Netscape's threat of the browser becomg a "platform", ultimately replacing Windows. Now that it's not a thread, MS doesn't care so much. They make no money on the browser, remember...

	22-12-2004 23:27									#34
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quote: Originally posted by optimus2861 And you say Office isn't a monopoly? Legally you may be right, but practically -- I have to question whether you work with or on computers in your job. I have never, ever seen any documents emailed back and forth that weren't one of: Word documents, Excel spreadsheets, Powerpoints, or PDFs, and I deal with a lot of different firms as a consulting engineer. Alternatives are simply not in use at the corporate level on any wide scale (or even a narrow one) that I've seen.

We don't use MS Office at work, and we have no issues. We use the Lotus Office suite.

Customers send us .DOC files and .XLS files and .PPT files and we have no issues with them.

The official correspondance method with external people is PDF.

	22-12-2004 23:31									#35
	Put an end to popups!

And saying that Longhorn is like a service pack to Windows XP with prettier graphics is funny on several levels. First of all, Longhorn is a substantial update -- it replaces Win32 with WinFX (and win32 has been around since Win95...), it adds the Indigo services mechanism, it adds the Avalon presentation engine, it uses NT kernel 6.0 instead of 5.1 (Win2K was 5.0), which is a substantial update in performance and stability, etc.

The reason you may think it's only about a Service Pack is because MS' free Service Packs do offer a lot of features for free, so they have high-standards.

	23-12-2004 00:47									#36
	Inflate your Upload Space

did we mention that the service packs were free, and not $119?

	23-12-2004 00:56									#37
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Btw, how are the use of PDF files proof of an Office monopoly? Was Adobe recently acquired by MS and no one bothered to tell me?

	23-12-2004 01:14									#38
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Quiet, Imran, he was on a roll. It's like when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor...

	23-12-2004 02:24									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Btw, how are the use of PDF files proof of an Office monopoly? Was Adobe recently acquired by MS and no one bothered to tell me?

Since I brought it up...

I only mentioned PDF because it's effectively the only non-MS-exclusive document file format I ever send/receive (aside from AutoCAD stuff, which has nothing to do with MS, other than that AutoCAD used to develop cross-platform but went Windows-only some years ago). Even then, the PDF is usually just a Word/Excel document converted to PDF because either the receiver doesn't have Word/Excel (rare) or you want to send the document read-only.

Might be an IBM ego thing that keeps them off MS Office .

	23-12-2004 02:57									#43
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: This is just silly, though -- your claim they do absolutely nothing. SP2 was absolutely nothing? It stalled all Windows development for a year to develop, it was a more cohesive update than OS X 10.3 was, and was given away for free. Further, they've been patching vulnerabilities as they're discovered.

It managed to stall 80,000 NHS computers too IIRC.

And it has done **** all to stop the rot. Presumably the well-known fact that there are no OS X viruses and no known spyware (apart from things like keystroke loggers which can't be automatically installed) would make a tempting target for hackers wanting to make a name for themselves.

Windows is insecure because it's ****, and because the company who markets it had no real incentive to make it work properly, since people were effectively locked in. Now they are worried, but its too late.

And Apple gives away security updates for free, even for older systems.

And I agree, PDFs are indispensable, and supported natively in OS X I might add.

	23-12-2004 04:03									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Microsoft are the ones that should be worried, they're being attacked from multiple sides. I don't think they'll be able to dethrone Google for a start.

And dethroning goolge has exactly what to do with MS's core business? Do you honestly believe anyone is going to break MS's OS monopoly or the MS Office monopoly in the near future? MS makes money hand over first where as Apple's core market (The Mac) just keeps getting smaller and smaller.

	23-12-2004 05:00									#45
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Apple is OK for the foreseeable future. Microsoft are the ones that should be worried, they're being attacked from multiple sides. I don't think they'll be able to dethrone Google for a start. More bad news for them is that even my mother uses Firefox now (and was pleasantly surprised that internet browsing didn't have to be ****). It's hard to say just yet, but if Firefox becomes viral, that is the end of MS browser domination, no matter what they do – they're too far behind now.

again I don't understand.

Browsers are free. How does it matter which browser people use?

How can microsoft make a profit on something that is free?

	23-12-2004 05:08									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident How can microsoft make a profit on something that is free?

They can't, but a monopoly in a free product/service can be used to promote another paid product/service into monopoly status (or to help keep a paid product/service at monopoly status).

	23-12-2004 06:03									#47
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quote: And dethroning goolge has exactly what to do with MS's core business? Do you honestly believe anyone is going to break MS's OS monopoly or the MS Office monopoly in the near future?

Yep. The future of computing will probably not be like it is now. Much more web based. That puts companies like Google in the hot seat.

	23-12-2004 06:58									#48
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Aggie,

Be nice.

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Office isn't a monopoly. There are plenty of other systems that work on Windows, and can read Word files.

Guess what? That's one of the complaints against MS, that their applications group have access to the operating systems group, thus giving them an advantage. Thus one of the things the DoJ sought was to level the playing field, i.e. a "bamboo wall" between the OS group and the applications group. In fact, Judge Penfield ordered MS to be broken up that way in the original verdict.

	23-12-2004 07:01									#49
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quote: Aggie, Be nice.

I wasn't aware I was being horrible.

	23-12-2004 07:06									#50
	Increase the size of your Attachments

OK, aggie. If anyone breaks MS's monopoly in the next 5 years I will buy you a shiny new Apolyton mouse pad. What will you give me when google doesn't amount to shite other then yet another portal. True, they're a big portal but they have nothing to do with OSes nor will they ever be.

Linux just won't pick up much market share outside of the "experts" in computers it already appeals to and MOC is going to continue to lose market share. So who's going to come up with the monopoly breaking OS?

Last edited by Oerdin on 23-12-2004 at 08:25

	23-12-2004 07:11									#51
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Five years is a long time, so be careful what you bet Oerdin.

	23-12-2004 07:13									#52
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Asher Further, they've been patching vulnerabilities as they're discovered.

You know that's futile, because Windows has fundamental design flaws. Some of the security vulnerabilities are never going to be fixed, even Microsoft openly acknowledges that. Until they completely redesign the OS from the ground up.

	23-12-2004 07:16									#53
	Tired of ads?

quote: OK, aggie. If anyone breaks MS's monopoly in the next 5 years I will buy you a shiny new Apolyton mouse pad.

Big spender, aren't you?

Linux will pick up market share in businesses first. It's cheaper for a start. You would think that medium sized businesses would avoid Linux like the plague. You'd be wrong; it's now being considered, and will only get better and become a more attractive option. The EU has shown that it is prepared to stand up to Microsoft, and whether Americans like it or not, the EU will get its way. Add to that emerging markets, where people can't afford the outrageous price of proprietary software and it looks pretty good. Microsoft can't keep on giving stuff away for free.

Home users, gamers, etc. will be the last to switch, if they ever do. I thought that was extremely unlikely until I saw how good desktop Linux has become in the last couple of years.

I think you're wrong about Google. They've jumped into email, blogging, digital photography desktop search and now online libraries. It looks to me as though they are well positioned for the time when most applications become web apps.

	23-12-2004 07:19									#54
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Linux just won't pick up much market share outside of the "experts" in computers it already appeals to and MOC is going to continue to lose market share.

That's not true. Many countries, including France, Germany, the UK, the PRC, Japan, and RoK, are switching or have switched to Linux. Some on a nationwide level, some city by city. They reasoned - correctly from my PoV, that they are not going to trust proprietary software, especially when it comes to something as fundamental as an operating system, because they have no idea what's going on behind their backs.

Also, some research firm (IDC IIRC) reckons that Linux will be running 7% of the desktop computers worldwide (less in the US, ~4%). It's not a big number, sure, but it's a giant leap from a rounding error.

	23-12-2004 07:21									#55
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Home users, gamers, etc. will be the last to switch, if they ever do. I thought that was extremely unlikely until I saw how good desktop Linux has become in the last couple of years.

ATI and nVidia are coming out with Linux drivers for their graphics cards. That should make it much easier to port games.

	23-12-2004 07:24									#56
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Free software is just that. The point that appeals to large businesses and governments is not so much the cost as the freedom to fix it or modify it to suit themselves, and to hire whomsoever they want to do that.

It's about control.

	23-12-2004 07:25									#57
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quote: ATI and nVidia are coming out with Linux drivers for their graphics cards. That should make it much easier to port games.

I didn't know that. I still think that business will jump first.

	23-12-2004 07:30									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: ATI and nVidia are coming out with Linux drivers for their graphics cards. That should make it much easier to port games. I didn't know that. I still think that business will jump first.

Here's the Anandtech article.

	23-12-2004 07:31									#59
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Cheers. I always enjoy reading him. His article on OS X was really interesting.

	23-12-2004 07:45									#60
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Guess what? That's one of the complaints against MS, that their applications group have access to the operating systems group, thus giving them an advantage. Thus one of the things the DoJ sought was to level the playing field, i.e. a "bamboo wall" between the OS group and the applications group. In fact, Judge Penfield ordered MS to be broken up that way in the original verdict.

Guess what? That had zero to do with what I said.