24-12-2004 08:28									#121
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quote: Again, you assume that everyone cares about this. Most people do not upgrade their computers, just as they don't upgrade their cars. So your point is moot.

you say this, which is why your argument this:

quote: Perhaps they should have put more memory in them, like I did. There was a noticeable performance boost.

is moot.

quote: Sure, you can do that on a mac, but that has nothing to do with my point, which was about maintenance. Nice try at changing the subject though.

actually, i didn't change the subject. your point was something about how maintenance on windows boxes was difficult. and it's not. my point is how your example of how "easy" it is to log into one computer and yada-yada-yada bs is moot when we're dealing with mass deployments, and your purported benefit and ease of mac maintenance is moot.

quote: Well, shut up then.

then stop putting words in my mouth.

quote: What it does take is beyond most people. I know this from my own experience.

and i've found that most people, when told what to do, do the basic minimum to keep their computers locked down. at the uni, for all people entering the dorms, we give them a checklist. lo and behold, we've had a marked drop-off in infection rates.

agathon, your rabid hatred of windows is amazing. quite frankly, it blinds you.

as is asher's rabid hatred of mac. then again, it's always the case with you fanatic partisans. bush v kerry, left v right, windows v mac....

	24-12-2004 08:33									#122
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quote: It appears not, since you are incapable of grasping basic problems.

And quite frankly, it appears that you can't understand that some computers are inherently not worth the extra $400 cost due to your blind hatred of Windows.

i mean, seriously. if your argument is that people buying the emac aren't getting stuck with windows... then why charge them $400 more when OS X itself only costs $200 at most, and the hardware it runs on is worth less than $500? sell the emac for $600 or less, and maybe then i'll consider even remotely recommending it, rather than being correct in how worthless it is?

	24-12-2004 08:45									#123
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quote: i mean, seriously. if your argument is that people buying the emac aren't getting stuck with windows... then why charge them $400 more when OS X itself only costs $200 at most, and the hardware it runs on is worth less than $500? sell the emac for $600 or less, and maybe then i'll consider even remotely recommending it, rather than being correct in how worthless it is?

Obviously because you can't run OS X on another machine.

If you want to defend Windows, go ahead. I've seen enough horror stories. I am a former Windows user after all. I'd rather pay extra and not have to worry, so I suspect would many other people if they knew anything about it.

Perhaps when desktop Linux gets better, there will be another option. For now there really isn't.

The emac is fine for an office machine. No more, no less. It works, I've used one. Sure you can get a cheapo Dell for less, but I don't care. Apple's OS is worth more than the difference to me. So is being free of virus worries.

	24-12-2004 08:49									#124
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i'm well aware of the PPC/x86 issue with OS X. i still don't think it justifies the $400 extra.

and our experience has shown that giving a user a checklist on how to lock their computer down--which is educating the user on what to do properly, is a minimal added cost to a cheapo dell.

which is why i can't and won't recommend an emac to anyone.

	24-12-2004 08:53									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed i'm well aware of the PPC/x86 issue with OS X. i still don't think it justifies the $400 extra. and our experience has shown that giving a user a checklist on how to lock their computer down--which is educating the user on what to do properly, is a minimal added cost to a cheapo dell. which is why i can't and won't recommend an emac to anyone.

There's such a thing as total cost of ownership (TCO), which includes time wasted in getting rid of all forms of malware (viruses, spyware, etc.)

	24-12-2004 08:56									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed And quite frankly, it appears that you can't understand that some computers are inherently not worth the extra $400 cost due to your blind hatred of Windows.

I don't think hatred of Windows is blind, it's just that people got fed up with all its problems, in addition to people got fed up with Microsoft.

	24-12-2004 09:07									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Sure you can get a cheapo Dell for less, but I don't care. Apple's OS is worth more than the difference to me. So is being free of virus worries.

Um, exactly. You may spend more money on a Mac in the short run, but in the long run you'll save money from not having to buy extra software to keep thing running at it's optimum.

With a PC it's the other way around.

	24-12-2004 09:12									#128
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quote: and our experience has shown that giving a user a checklist on how to lock their computer down--which is educating the user on what to do properly, is a minimal added cost to a cheapo dell.

Actually the low cost Dells are a bit of BS really. I went to Dell's site and tried to add the software to make it like the emac, and that pushed the price way up. Going for XP Pro which is the equivalent of OS X I suppose increases the price quite a bit, so does adding in the multimedia stuff.

I tried building an imac equivalent and it ended up costing about $1000 more than an imac. I'm sure I did something wrong, but it's made me think that the new imac is quite reasonable.

	24-12-2004 09:16									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger There's such a thing as total cost of ownership (TCO), which includes time wasted in getting rid of all forms of malware (viruses, spyware, etc.)

As well as porting all of the applications from Windows to Linux, employing your own programmers to enable device support, etc. Which is why the TCO is generally higher to switch to Linux from Windows, too much work to do...too many people to hire...no guarantees.

	24-12-2004 09:18									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy Um, exactly. You may spend more money on a Mac in the short run, but in the long run you'll save money from not having to buy extra software to keep thing running at it's optimum. With a PC it's the other way around.

You don't have to buy any software if you know what you're doing.

All antivirus programs do is prevent stupidity.

I don't run any antivirus programs, and I've never had a virus.

That's what I get for not opening "virus.exe", I guess. People like you should download free virus scanners like AVG, then, and either way it's still free...

	24-12-2004 09:18									#131
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I dunno, Walmart are selling a Linspire notebook for $498. I guess that criminals will buy them, since it's the computer equivalent of a prepaid cellphone.

	24-12-2004 09:22									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Actually the low cost Dells are a bit of BS really. I went to Dell's site and tried to add the software to make it like the emac, and that pushed the price way up. Going for XP Pro which is the equivalent of OS X I suppose increases the price quite a bit, so does adding in the multimedia stuff. I tried building an imac equivalent and it ended up costing about $1000 more than an imac. I'm sure I did something wrong, but it's made me think that the new imac is quite reasonable.

You have to be shitting me. You don't need to upgrade WinXP Home to Pro unless you've got a dual-proc machine and need something like the encrypting filesystem.

Hell, even OS X doesn't support the encrypting filesystem.

Try it again, and provide details this time so I can debunk it. A 3.2GHz PC is not equivalent to a 1.5GHz G4, BTW.

	24-12-2004 09:23									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I dunno, Walmart are selling a Linspire notebook for $498. I guess that criminals will buy them, since it's the computer equivalent of a prepaid cellphone.

Linspire has a subscription software model.

It's the fine print that gets you.

	24-12-2004 09:42									#134
	Suffering from ads?

The time of open war on the Wintel world is just around the New Year's bend!

	24-12-2004 09:44									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy The time of open war on the Wintel world is just around the New Year's bend!

The open war began with Lisa.

The war's been over for a long time now. What Apple and Linux are fighting for are scraps.

	24-12-2004 09:52									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The open war began with Lisa. The war's been over for a long time now. What Apple and Linux are fighting for are scraps.

Um no, the first war was lost by Apple. Platform War II is going to start very soon (a 3-way War between Apple, Linux and M$!!!); right now the troops are just warming up. . .
























and then. . .


























BANG!!!

	24-12-2004 09:53									#137
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...

I'm sure this is supposed to coincide with a certain other fictional second coming, right?

	24-12-2004 10:14									#138
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I would get a Mac, but It seems all the software I find at stores in my area are made for playing on Windows, I very rarely see software sold for Macs; I have never seen software sold for use on Linux.

	24-12-2004 10:17									#139
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Try the Internet, Odin. It's the futuristic place to shop.

	24-12-2004 10:23									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy Try the Internet, Odin. It's the futuristic place to shop.

Unfortunatly, I don't have a credit card.

	24-12-2004 10:27									#141
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I guess you're still stuck in the past then. Too bad.

	24-12-2004 16:39									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: Better for them to learn how to use the computers that industry will want them to know after they graduate. If that's graphic design, or video production or anything that is actually creative and not just punching numbers on a keyboard (which any monkey can do), then it looks like macs must become compulsory.

Macs have been losing out in audio / video to wintels for several years now. They are still strong in education (bought by the same people that bring you the world's least effective education system on a per dollar basis) and in desktop publishing / graphic design.

	24-12-2004 17:07									#143
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I've never had a virus either, on any of the three wintel machines I've had since getting on the internet 8 years ago. I use AVG on my laptop (it's free and easy) which is the machine that I use the most for the web, and nothing ever has been found. The vast majority of security issues are easily avoided by simply being a wise user.

	24-12-2004 19:45									#144
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quote: I've never had a virus either, on any of the three wintel machines I've had since getting on the internet 8 years ago. I use AVG on my laptop (it's free and easy) which is the machine that I use the most for the web, and nothing ever has been found. The vast majority of security issues are easily avoided by simply being a wise user.

Sorry, but that's not good enough.

Most people are not that well informed and just want a computer that works without any hassles. The security problems that Windows has are a disgrace. The sad thing is that people think they have to put up with this crap as a price of using a computer.

You must be in the minority then, or your ISP must be pretty good at stopping viruses. My mother's PC was getting five or six virus laden emails a week when I was fixing it. Even though she has NAV and keeps up with the definitions some have still got through.

It's a disgrace and it's Microsoft's fault for being tardy about it. They are making noises about doing something now, but it's too little too late.

quote: Macs have been losing out in audio / video to wintels for several years now. They are still strong in education (bought by the same people that bring you the world's least effective education system on a per dollar basis) and in desktop publishing / graphic design.

I would have said the opposite (excepting graphic design).

	24-12-2004 21:13									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy Um no, the first war was lost by Apple. Platform War II is going to start very soon (a 3-way War between Apple, Linux and M$!!!); right now the troops are just warming up. . .

First off you have one defect with your argument. Microsoft DOES NOT CONTROL the PC market, it controls a majority portion of the OS market. Secondly, the AMD/Intel based market is diverse and is very fierce. It develops faster. It has more innovation. The Apple market lacks in development and innovation, and relies on antiquated, obsolete chipsets. Thirdly, Apple has a mere 2% of the market and cannot compete with the dozen of manufacturers who put together PCs, and will face issues with a lot of people who build computers at home. Fourthly, you will not argue with me on this point... but... AMD 64 based machines ARE SO MUCH FASTER THEN ANYTHING WITH A G5. The speed differences are so substantial it would just be common sense to buy a computer with an AMD 64 processor in it.

	24-12-2004 22:24									#146
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quote: There's such a thing as total cost of ownership (TCO), which includes time wasted in getting rid of all forms of malware (viruses, spyware, etc.)

give 'em a howto checklist, and watch how they lock their own computers down to a basic minimum.

quote: Actually the low cost Dells are a bit of BS really. I went to Dell's site and tried to add the software to make it like the emac, and that pushed the price way up. Going for XP Pro which is the equivalent of OS X I suppose increases the price quite a bit, so does adding in the multimedia stuff.

software that is prevented from being bundled by microsoft, because apparently that's anti-competitive. i don't quite consider that fair.

	24-12-2004 23:01									#147
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I guess Apple must be close to dead, what with the top performing stock in the S&P 500, being up nearly 200% over the year.

Doomed they are... doooooommmeddddd!!!

	24-12-2004 23:26									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon You must be in the minority then, or your ISP must be pretty good at stopping viruses. My mother's PC was getting five or six virus laden emails a week when I was fixing it. Even though she has NAV and keeps up with the definitions some have still got through.

It's not a flaw of the OS if the user downloads and runs virus.exe from an email.

	25-12-2004 02:53									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I guess Apple must be close to dead, what with the top performing stock in the S&P 500, being up nearly 200% over the year. Doomed they are... doooooommmeddddd!!!

Considering this reflects the strides in the personal music player industry rather then the personal computer industry, your statement is misleading at best. Apple is doing fine in the music player industry with its Ipod. It is doing extremely poorly in the computer market.

	25-12-2004 05:49									#150
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Just got back from a party where an ex-Windows user confessed his sins.

Summary:

"I used to hate macs, but I got so sick of Windows and viruses and **** that I decided to try one. I was wrong. I can't believe it's so much better, I'll never go back to MS crapware."



I must have heard that story so many times recently...