23-12-2004 22:12									#91
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc All right but the cops might not like it when you start violating the "Thou shalt not murder" commandment.

Right, because there is absolutely no secular, rational basis to otherwise prohibit murder as a crime.

	23-12-2004 22:12									#92
	Get a bigger avatar today!

We've been over that ground already.

-Arrian

	23-12-2004 22:13									#93
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

ACLU founded by a communist?

Given their anti-Christian agenda, I would almost believe this.

	23-12-2004 22:15									#94
	Suffering from ads?

Ned returns!

The ALCU is the boogieman for the Jesuslanders, I see.

-Arrian

	23-12-2004 22:19									#95
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Ned The problem, Berz, is that the Second Amendment does not apply to the states.

quote: No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;

	23-12-2004 22:22									#96
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Ned returns! The ALCU is the boogieman for the Jesuslanders, I see. -Arrian

I live in Jesusland? Kalifornia?

	23-12-2004 22:27									#97
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Kuci, without getting into the Privileges and Immunities clause, I hardly think the Supremes would resort to this clause to protect Second Amendment rights. That Amendment was intended to protect the right of the States to raise militias. I would assume that the corollary is States have the right to ban militias in their own borders if they want. That is effectively what gun control laws do.

	23-12-2004 22:30									#98
	Support Apolyton

quote: Kuci, without getting into the Privileges and Immunities clause, I hardly think the Supremes would resort to this clause to protect Second Amendment rights. That Amendment was intended to protect the right of the States to raise militias. I would assume that the corollary is States have the right to ban militias in their own borders if they want. That is effectively what gun control laws do.

Just because SCOTUS interprets the constitution a certain way doesn't mean it's the correct interpretation. I'm obviously arguing AGAINST their interpretation!

	23-12-2004 22:36									#99
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Kuci, the problem you have with your interpretation is that it flies in the face of historical facts. Only the most "liberal" of jurists would ignore the purpose for the Second Amendment in interpreting it as giving the people an unfettered right to bear arms against State action.

	23-12-2004 22:51									#100
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Ned I live in Jesusland? Kalifornia?

It's a state of mind

-Arrian

	23-12-2004 23:13									#101
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Arrian It's a state of mind -Arrian

Arrian, well my own state is that of agnosticism, as I have often stated. You simply assume I am a Jesus freak because I defend religion.

	23-12-2004 23:18									#102
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Actually, so does the ALCU.

I don't think the ALCU is a bunch of "Jesus Freaks."

You, while agnostic w/regard to belief in "God," certainly display dogmatic thinking here on these boards (Republicans are keepers of the TRUTH, Liberals are Socialists are Communists, Communists are behind everything, etc). Given that, in the context of this thread, I did forget your agnosticism.

-Arrian

	23-12-2004 23:29									#103
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Actually, so does the ALCU. I don't think the ALCU is a bunch of "Jesus Freaks." You, while agnostic w/regard to belief in "God," certainly display dogmatic thinking here on these boards (Republicans are keepers of the TRUTH, Liberals are Socialists are Communists, Communists are behind everything, etc). Given that, in the context of this thread, I did forget your agnosticism. -Arrian

Arrian, where have I said that Republicans are keepers of the TRUTH? That would require monolistic thinking. The Republicans are a party of the "big tent," where people of opposing views are welcome. Liberal Republicans like Schwarzenegger and me are part of the party as well as the likes of Bush and McCain.

In contrast, anyone who does not believe in the liberal orthodoxy seems to be ostracized in the Democrat Party. Abortion is a key example of what I mean. Name one prominent pro-life Democrat.

	23-12-2004 23:32									#104
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Arrian, the ACLU has a very extreme position on religion. It wants to ban Christianity from the public consistent with its views that the first amendment reads "separation of church and state" instead of what it actually reads.

	23-12-2004 23:33									#105
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Ned Arrian, where have I said that Republicans are keepers of the TRUTH? That would require monolistic thinking. The Republicans are a party of the "big tent," where people of opposing views are welcome. Liberal Republicans like Schwarzenegger and me are part of the party as well as the likes of Bush and McCain. In contrast, anyone who does not believe in the liberal orthodoxy seems to be ostracized in the Democrat Party. Abortion is a key example of what I mean. Name one prominent pro-life Democrat.

You JUST DID IT, and you don't even realize it (or you're playing dumb).

-Arrian

	24-12-2004 00:20									#106
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: I was just having a little fun if it wasn't obvious. I'll stop now

Yes, stop . God does not want you to have fun!

quote: Arrian, the ACLU has a very extreme position on religion. It wants to ban Christianity from the public consistent with its views that the first amendment reads "separation of church and state" instead of what it actually reads.

Putting aside what the Establishment Clause means, can you at least realize that the ACLU acts the same way towards other religions as it does Christianity? Hell, it has defended Christian Churchs, like the case I linked to where the city wanted to shut down a church and the ACLU said, no way, that violates the 1st Amendment.

	24-12-2004 00:24									#107
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Imran

people like Ned who can't see past their own ignorance about the ACLU

	24-12-2004 06:25									#108
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Odin -

quote: the Constitution gives the Federal and State governments the power to tax, and since the Constitution was amended to allow income taxes, you have no argument.

While the Constitution gives Congress the power to tax, it limits that power by defining what Congress can spend money on. You are reading the power to tax and ignoring why Congress was given the power to tax - to perform specific functions laid out in the Constitution. And nowhere in that Constitution will you find a federal power to spend money on whatever Congress wants nor will you find a power to create a welfare state via wealth re-distribution. The ACLU is left wing, the Constitution is a right wing document.

Ned -

quote: The problem, Berz, is that the Second Amendment does not apply to the states.

And yet several other amendments do apply to the states, including the establishment clause (and that has been defined more broadly than it deserves). The ACLU says the 1st Amendment applies to the states because of the 14th Amendment, but then they say the 2nd Amendment can not only be ignored by the states, the ACLU doesn't challenge federal gun laws.

quote: Kuci, without getting into the Privileges and Immunities clause, I hardly think the Supremes would resort to this clause to protect Second Amendment rights. That Amendment was intended to protect the right of the States to raise militias. I would assume that the corollary is States have the right to ban militias in their own borders if they want. That is effectively what gun control laws do.

There is only one RIGHT in the 2nd Amendment to the BILL OF RIGHTS. And that one RIGHT belongs to the people, not the states. You're confusing the Framers' admonition to the states that they will need well regulated militias to remain free with the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

quote: Kuci, the problem you have with your interpretation is that it flies in the face of historical facts. Only the most "liberal" of jurists would ignore the purpose for the Second Amendment in interpreting it as giving the people an unfettered right to bear arms against State action.

The purpose of the 2nd Amendment was not to give the states a right to have militias, they already had that power under both the Constitution and Articles of Confederation. Read what the Founders said about the importance of having an armed populace and why the 2nd Amendment was ratified. It had very little to do with state militias and was all about you and me being the ultimate arbiters of our security as opposed to letting some government take from us this right.

	24-12-2004 06:31									#109
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I am christian and I like the ALCU

a lot better than the Republican partty, about all I like about it is that it 'says' that it will end abortion

Jon Miller

	24-12-2004 07:27									#110
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Berz, but you ignore that the purpose for the Second Amendment was to protect the States' Right to have a Militia against a Federal LAW banning the possession of arms by the people.

This Amendment was all about STATES RIGHTS.

It proscribes only Federal POWER.

It has never been extended to restrict States Rights through the 14th Amendment. To do so, would be to turn the Amendment's very purpose of protecting States Rights on its head.

	24-12-2004 07:31									#111
	Remove this text

Sava, I am not completely ignorant about the ACLU. I once was a member until I realized that it was on the wrong side on the issue of a Religion and State, effectively turning the Establishment Clause into a weapon against the Freedom of Exercise Clause.

Also, the ACLU is focused solely on Christianity. This focus makes its very motives suspect.

	24-12-2004 07:51									#112
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Berz, but you ignore that the purpose for the Second Amendment was to protect the States' Right to have a Militia against a Federal LAW banning the possession of arms by the people. This Amendment was all about STATES RIGHTS. It proscribes only Federal POWER. It has never been extended to restrict States Rights through the 14th Amendment. To do so, would be to turn the Amendment's very purpose of protecting States Rights on its head.

Ned, where in the 2nd Amendment have you found the words "state's right" or "right of the states"? In the 2nd Amendment to the Bill of Rights (not Bill of Additional government powers) there is only 1 right mentioned - the right of the people to keep and bear arms. Dis-allowing the states to ban guns does not negate the states' power to have militias. And I'm not ignoring the militia clause of the 2nd Amendment, I've explained it's purpose.

	24-12-2004 07:58									#113
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: I once was a member until I realized that it was on the wrong side on the issue of a Religion and State, effectively turning the Establishment Clause into a weapon against the Freedom of Exercise Clause.

Yes, the one requirement of the establishment clause is "Congress shall make no law". If there is no law, there is no establishment of religion.

quote: Also, the ACLU is focused solely on Christianity. This focus makes its very motives suspect.

Trust me, if Buddhists get control of Congress and start passing Buddhist laws, the ACLU will be there to oppose those laws.

	24-12-2004 08:10									#114
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Ned Arrian, where have I said that Republicans are keepers of the TRUTH? That would require monolistic thinking. The Republicans are a party of the "big tent," where people of opposing views are welcome. Liberal Republicans like Schwarzenegger and me are part of the party as well as the likes of Bush and McCain. In contrast, anyone who does not believe in the liberal orthodoxy seems to be ostracized in the Democrat Party. Abortion is a key example of what I mean. Name one prominent pro-life Democrat.

Gov. Warner of Virginia, State Senator V. Goode, and a number of others. I imagine that a significant number of southern Democrats are pro-life.

	24-12-2004 08:32									#115
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy Actually, if someone did that and called themselves Christian, they might get labeled as a terrorist. Berzerker, your point is conceded. Apparently I completely misunderstood the logic in your statement. My bad. But you know, according to statistics coming from thousands of different sources there are millions upon millions of Christians in America. If I had to guesstimate how many Christians are in America, I would put it in the 30-40% range compared 50-65% other religion and 5-10% atheist/agnostic/deist/theist.

Actually I think about 75 to 85% of all Americans call themselves Christians, with only 5 to 10% professing adherence to non-christian religions and 5 to 10% claiming to be atheist or agnostic.

	24-12-2004 11:28									#116
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Ned, where in the 2nd Amendment have you found the words "state's right" or "right of the states"? In the 2nd Amendment to the Bill of Rights (not Bill of Additional government powers) there is only 1 right mentioned - the right of the people to keep and bear arms. Dis-allowing the states to ban guns does not negate the states' power to have militias. And I'm not ignoring the militia clause of the 2nd Amendment, I've explained it's purpose.

Berz, I recommend reading the recent 9th Circuit decision on the Second Amendment. It gives a very good account of why the FF put it in the Bill of Rights and why it was placed there to protect the STATES' RIGHT to form militias. After reading this history, there is no doubt that the proscription was intended, as were all the original Bill of Rights, to restrain only FEDERAL power in this area. There was no intention to restrain STATE power, as the very purpose was to protect STATES RIGHTS.

	24-12-2004 12:02									#117
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy My point is that there are certain rights that we've had in the past and are being taken away.

Like the right to own slaves? I really miss that one.

	24-12-2004 12:02									#118
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Ned Berz, I recommend reading the recent 9th Circuit decision on the Second Amendment. It gives a very good account of why the FF put it in the Bill of Rights and why it was placed there to protect the STATES' RIGHT to form militias. After reading this history, there is no doubt that the proscription was intended, as were all the original Bill of Rights, to restrain only FEDERAL power in this area. There was no intention to restrain STATE power, as the very purpose was to protect STATES RIGHTS.

Why are you so horny over the founding fathers? What makes you think we should care what they may or may not have wanted?

They set up a good framework for a government, but times have changed. We can go beyond what they set forth. Quit treating them like Mohammed. They're just men... very very dead men.

	24-12-2004 12:05									#119
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker 1) The ACLU is nowhere to be found when states/localities want to ban or severely restrict guns,

The 2nd Amendment has a very powerful and well funded organization defending it. It doesn't need the help of the ACLU, which has it's resources spread thin defending the other nine amendments in the BoR.

	24-12-2004 12:09									#120
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: in interpreting it as giving the people an unfettered right to bear arms against State action.

This is complete bullshit. Protect us against state action? Like when? You mean like when this government passed the Patriot Act which took away our freedoms? You mean like when GWB stole the 2000 election? You mean like when this administration illegally invaded Iraq, killing hundreds of thousands of people?

Tell me Ned, where were you and your 2nd amendment toting ilk when we needed you the most?

The point I'm making is that the FFs (since you love them so much) never would have intended citizens to bear arms to protect the country against "state actions" because there will never be consensus over what is just and unjust. Just look at the state of the country today. It would only end in chaos if people took up arms against whatever they thought was the state over stepping its bounds.