14-04-2005 21:25									#61
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Almost forgot. Ecostats.

MY 2165

Morgan:
minerals: 95 (+32 support=127) Decrease= -6+2=-4
credits: 222
labs: 30
production: 25 rows

Sparta:
minerals: 150 (+31 support=181) Increase= 3+1=4
credits: -2
labs: 33.6
production: 16 rows (+3 MM)


MY 2166

Morgan:
minerals: 92 (+36=128) Increase= -3+4=1
credits: 250
labs: 3
production: 19 rows

Sparta:
minerals: 143 (+36=179) Decrease= -7+5=-2
credits: -4
labs: 32.8
production: 26 rows (+6 MM)


With "production" I mean what's the worth in mineral rows of all the stuff we'll finish the year after. Eg for us that'll be extraordinary well: six crawlers, some aircraft etc... Advantage of this measurement is that it corrects for the SE Industry bonus, takes into account energy hurrying etc, instead of having to measure them seperately. Drawback is that there's a lots of variance in this value, making it harder to compare the size of our economies. For example in '64 we produced 5 rows, in '62 40...

with "MM" I mean Maniac Manoeuvre/Method, ie the cash in crawler, and retire unit design method. You have to count that seperately, else you'd be counting crawlers built for that purpose twice in your production value.


Oh yeah, as you can see, due to our war production,our support costs are taking up a bigger and bigger portion of our total mineral production which is hardly growing. (So let's popboom to solve that )

	25-04-2005 04:26									#62
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well, it looks as though that IoD steered away from the DV - see pic below - we survived unscathed, so now can take a peek at GeoMatrix to see how good their probe defences are

Attachment: 2168 - discovolante.gif
This has been downloaded 45 time(s).

Last edited by Googlie on 25-04-2005 at 04:33

	25-04-2005 12:24									#63
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Wow, good news there. I thought that was almost impossible to happen.

	30-04-2005 03:46									#64
	Ecostats MY 2168 Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

MY 2168

Morgan:
minerals: 83 (+38=121) Increase= 0+0=0
credits: 246
labs: 3
production: 12 rows (but minus 12 rows crawler-hurrying)

Sparta:
minerals: 148 (+40=188) Increase= -3+1=-2
credits: -4
labs: 35.2
production: 26 rows (+6 MM)

	03-05-2005 21:44									#65
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Through indirect infiltration info via Zakharov, it appears Lal already has DAP and is now researching "NONE"... IIRC he was still two years away from researching it last year, so I can only assume the Angels gave it to them after they acquired it themselves.

But what's worse: Zakharov also already has Doctine: Air Power!!
How's that possible?
Right now I can think of two ways:

1) Lal gave it him.
Does anyone know how likely this is? Lal's turn is after ours and before the Angels. Can AIs talk to each other while it's not their turn?
Even if they did, would Lal give DAP to Zak, having in mind Lal's not submissive to Zak?

2) The Angels gave or traded DAP to Zak. If that would be the case, it's very worrysome. It means the Angels would be ignoring our request not to trade with Zak without our supervision. Also that they could get Cyberethics from him next year too.

Therefore I'm wondering, should we send an urgent message to the Angels asking if they might know something more about this?

If it should turn out they in fact contacted Zak, should we ask Zak to declare war on the Angels to prevent further contact? (Is that possible while we're at peace with the Angels?)

	03-05-2005 22:05									#66
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Infiltrated Lal (see 2189 turn thread)

Morgan has been busy, making sure that everyone has Doc Air:

Attachment: 2169 - docair proliferates.gif
This has been downloaded 35 time(s).

	04-05-2005 00:09									#67
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The Angels seem to be feeling too safe...


A general idea. We have the means to make a very fast secret project build. Do we also have the ability to insta-probe any of the real contenders? By that I mean the Hive, Morgan, and the Angels.

	04-05-2005 02:21									#68
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OK - here's my sleuthwork:

Angels last turn lacked NLM. PolySoft, DocInit and DAP that we had.

This turn they lack only DocInit

I'm surmising that Morgan gave Doc Air to the Gaians, and Angels got it via their techshare - 3 other infiltrated factions being Hive, Gaians and, worrisome, either Morgan or ourselves

Angels traded it to Lal for NLM

Lal sent it on to Zak as a benevolent gesture

But I haven't seen any credits change hands last turn to this.

eg Hive: last turn reserves of 177, plus 30, netting this turn 188 - that's consistent with 19 being used to rush a unit

PK's - last year 328, plus 31, and this year 358 - that's consistent. And all his builds are just 1 turn nearer completion. His sole probe was in HQ last turn and now is in Commerce committee, the base closest to Iaci (we'll have to watch that one)

Uni had 63 last turn, plus 14, and has 77 this turn - consistent

Angels reserves grew from 77 to 130 (running DEM, Planned, wealth)

Gaian reserves grew from 112 to 115, running frontier/planned/wealth

But still strange goings-on

	06-05-2005 20:04									#69
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Interesting info.


Here the MY 2169 ecostats btw.

Morgan:
minerals: 88 (+40=128) Increase= 5+2=+7
credits: 248
labs: 4
production: 22 rows

Sparta:
minerals: 132 (+62=194) Increase= -16+22=+6
credits: 11
labs: 53
production: 10 rows (+3 MM)

Our energy production rose, our mineral production decreased, as expected. On the plus side, sanctions will be lifted next year, and our population will grow from 54 to 59, so we should get a boost next year.

	09-05-2005 10:02									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Infiltrated Lal (see 2189 turn thread) Morgan has been busy, making sure that everyone has Doc Air:

there goes our air superiority

	09-05-2005 12:28									#71
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quote: Originally posted by wuy3 there goes our air superiority

We could keep it, and still be attacking Morgan if we wanted to. The problem is, this would cost us resources and hamper our growth, allowing the Angels to become really dangerous. So it was decided to slow down conquest to build and grow for a while.

	11-05-2005 09:42									#72
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OK - the case for The Planetary Datalinks

Lal, the Angels and the gaiuans all have neural Grafting

If we instabuild the PDL, then we'll get it when we get our next tech (Planetary Economics, in 2 turns)

I'll follow maniac's suggestion re SC2 - (a fungal gin, upgraded crawler and 2 regular crawlers), so we'll open 2172 with the PDL, then get Plan Econ from our own reserach efforts, then get Neural grafting via the PDL, then cahs in that AA for yet another tech

That's the plan anyway

	11-05-2005 11:43									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie If we instabuild the PDL, then we'll get it when we get our next tech (Planetary Economics, in 2 turns) I'll follow maniac's suggestion re SC2 - (a fungal gin, upgraded crawler and 2 regular crawlers), so we'll open 2172 with the PDL, then get Plan Econ from our own reserach efforts, then get Neural grafting via the PDL, then cahs in that AA for yet another tech That's the plan anyway

Good plan.

	11-05-2005 21:07									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie If we instabuild the PDL, then we'll get it when we get our next tech (Planetary Economics, in 2 turns)

Are you sure? AFAIK there's some confusion about the exact effect of the Planetary Datalinks and the Angels tech infiltration ability. Some say a tech is only acquired if three parties gain it AFTER the PDL is built (or for the Angels infiltration is achieved). Meaning we wouldn't get neural grafting as the PKS, the Angels and the Gaians already have it. Though of course if they traded it to the Corporation after we built the PDL, we'd get it after all.


Btw, Zak has apparently giving Cyberethics to Lal. So I assume it won't be long before the Angels trade it with the PKs. Fortunately IIRC the Angels for some reason only have some 70 credits right now, so it won't be for next turn.

Seeing the Angels might acquire Cyberethics soon anyway, and since (if the assumption hereabove about the PDL is true) it's not 100% sure we might get Neural Grafting immediately after building the PDL, how about we suggest the following deal to the Angels:

• We give them Cyberethics. (meaning the Angels don't have to give cash to the PKs to get it)
  
• They give us Neural Grafting.
  
• They allow us to build the Ascetic Virtues. (with their -1 Police SE it's not as useful for the Angels anyway)
  
• We promise to call the council to sign a global trade pact as soon as we research Planetary Economics (since the Angels are treatied or pacted with everyone on Chiron except Yang, they'd gain most from a global trade pact)

	11-05-2005 21:11									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac We give them Cyberethics. (meaning the Angels don't have to give cash to the PKs to get it) They give us Neural Grafting. They allow us to build the Ascetic Virtues. (with their -1 Police SE it's not as useful for the Angels anyway) We promise to call the council to sign a global trade pact as soon as we research Planetary Economics (since the Angels are treatied or pacted with everyone on Chiron except Yang, they'd gain most from a global trade pact)

Since they would have it soon anyway, why do you think they will trade a tech and the "rights" to a secret project for it? Other than that, the idea seems good enough to me.

	11-05-2005 21:18									#76
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They save some cash, and there's of course the global trade pact. Don't know if they'd accept. It of course all depends on how important they consider the Ascetic Virtues themselves. And if they'd be shrewd enough to think "They really want the AV so we can ask more."

	11-05-2005 21:56									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac They save some cash, and there's of course the global trade pact. Don't know if they'd accept. It of course all depends on how important they consider the Ascetic Virtues themselves. And if they'd be shrewd enough to think "They really want the AV so we can ask more."

Well, we know the answer to that, do we not? Showing it to them next turn... in a Spartan base.

I think we should propose it as is, and see what they answer.

	11-05-2005 22:07									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Are you sure? AFAIK there's some confusion about the exact effect of the Planetary Datalinks and the Angels tech infiltration ability. Some say a tech is only acquired if three parties gain it AFTER the PDL is built (or for the Angels infiltration is achieved). Meaning we wouldn't get neural grafting as the PKS, the Angels and the Gaians already have it. Though of course if they traded it to the Corporation after we built the PDL, we'd get it after all.

I believe that the #TECHS mechanism cycles only when we or another faction discover a fresh tech - thus we'll build the PDL, say, in 2171, and nothing happens until we research our next texh, say Plan Econ, in 2175. then the cycle recalculates in 2175 and we get any tech then held by 3 others.

The confusion, I think, arises 'cos if 3 others alrady hold Plan Econ, we don't get it thru the PDL. leading players to believe that they only get future techs via the PDL.

But in this case, if we get the PDL when we open the 2172 turn, and then get plan Econ that same year, the cycle runs and the game engine sees that we are missing NG, so will also give us that tech (That's why it's counter productive to change to Knowledge this year - if we wanted to - 'cos that would give us Plan econ the year before we got the PDL, so would need to wait for the next faction to get a tech before the cycle resets.)

quote: Seeing the Angels might acquire Cyberethics soon anyway, and since (if the assumption hereabove about the PDL is true) it's not 100% sure we might get Neural Grafting immediately after building the PDL, how about we suggest the following deal to the Angels: We give them Cyberethics. (meaning the Angels don't have to give cash to the PKs to get it) They give us Neural Grafting. They allow us to build the Ascetic Virtues. (with their -1 Police SE it's not as useful for the Angels anyway) We promise to call the council to sign a global trade pact as soon as we research Planetary Economics (since the Angels are treatied or pacted with everyone on Chiron except Yang, they'd gain most from a global trade pact)

While i think I'm right, there's no harm in trying for a deal with the Angels.

We did, btw, agree not tobuild the AV in exchange for the whole Int int deal and their (and the Gaians, in exchange for their getting ecol eng) agreeing not to build the CDF

	11-05-2005 23:05									#79
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We should do a simulation to see if Googlie is right. If so I see no reason to request NG in that trade, it just gives them a stronger bargaining position ...

Unless they're planning to build the AV I'm sure they'll agree to the trade outlined by Maniac minus giving us NG.

	11-05-2005 23:12									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen We should do a simulation to see if Googlie is right. If so I see no reason to request NG in that trade, it just gives them a stronger bargaining position ...

Trades proposed by Maniac:

Cyberethics <-> Neural Grafting
Council vote <-> Secret Project "rights"

Granted they can get Cyberethics anyway. But still, leaving Neural Grafting out, we would be the ones paying through the nose. I think it would be reasonable of them to ask for some credits in addition, if they do agree to leave the project to us. If we leave Neural Grafting out, they should pay us.

	11-05-2005 23:55									#81
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Suggested post in the Angels-Spartan Embassy:

quote: To our Friends, the Data Angels: We note that you will shortly be obtaining Cyberethics, and likewise we will shortly be obtaining Neural Grafting. Might we suggest a mutually beneficial trade between our 2 factions? Cyberethics for Neural Grafting? And, as well, since we changed from Fundamentalism to Democracy we have lost some of the effectivenss of our garrison police units, and would like to revisit the agreement we had that we would desist from building the Ascetic Virtues SP. In exchange for your agreeing to waive that prohibition, we would be willing to sponsor a Council motion on a Global Trade pact. This would greatly benefit the Data Angels due to your friendly relations with all other factions and your choice of Social Engineering settings. Are the Data Angels interested in such an arrangement?

	12-05-2005 00:00									#82
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Looks good.

	12-05-2005 00:18									#83
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message posted in the Embassy

	12-05-2005 00:30									#84
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I think I'm still confused. Why do we want to give something useful (Cyberethics) in exchange for something (NG) which we will be obtaining for free when we've built the PD?

	12-05-2005 00:43									#85
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To sow confusion, maybe? The Angels would get Cyberethics soon anyway (from Lal). The real deal here is getting them to cede the "rights" to the Ascetic Virtues. We are not loosing much by the tech trade, so I see no problem there. I doubt they will take the deal, but if they do, we gain much more.

	12-05-2005 01:38									#86
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To sow confusion? I don't see how we're confusing them much, or to what ends, I would like to see some kind of elaboration on that point

I don't think receiving Cyberethics right now is worthless to them, so it is a bargaining chip not to be thrown away on something which is worthless to us. I would sooner have seen us offer Cyberethics for the rights to build the AV, which as you say of course is the only important thing they can give us.

My guess is that such a deal would have been more likely to be accepted by the Angels.

EDIT: This is of course assuming that we receive NG on completion of the PD or shortly following that, which kind of makes sense from a lazy programmers perspective

	12-05-2005 02:19									#87
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message looks good, but I don't think the DA's will bite the bait.

	12-05-2005 15:06									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie (That's why it's counter productive to change to Knowledge this year - if we wanted to - 'cos that would give us Plan econ the year before we got the PDL, so would need to wait for the next faction to get a tech before the cycle resets.)

Don't we get Plan Econ in two years no matter whether we're running Knowledge or not?

	12-05-2005 18:22									#89
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Ah, yes indeed. I had tinkered with the sliders to allocate more to research now that our commerce income is restored. (but reset them for the gamesave)

So .... do we want to change to knowledge this turn (+ 1 Efficiency, +2 Research but - 2 Probe)

Our Crypteia generally return to veteran status (with a couple of exceptions where they have run successful nissions and 1 is Commando and one Elite)

	12-05-2005 19:27									#90
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Our probes have already lost their extra morale due to the switch away from Fundamentalism. So the only negative of going Knowledge would now be that our units are half as cheap to mind control. Which isn't that big of a drawback I think compared to the benefits.