27-12-2004 00:09									#1
	AU Mod: Mythic Hero Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Should a level be put in between Emperor and Demi-God? Vote away.

	27-12-2004 00:11									#2
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You have 96 hours to vote.

	27-12-2004 00:32									#3
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No we have enough levels now. There is not much room to make the level unique as many of the values are either the same or close.

	27-12-2004 01:05									#4
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No.

	27-12-2004 04:12									#5
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Yes...

Just kidding! I voted no.

	27-12-2004 07:35									#6
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It seems to me that this poll is premature since the issue is still under discussion. I'm about to present a piece of hard evidence, and at this point, seven votes have been cast without seeing it. (My vote is the eighth, but since I'm presenting the evidence, I've obviously already seen it. )

	27-12-2004 08:05									#7
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I was a yes... go Mythic Hero, go!!

(New argument: If nothing else, Firaxis needs to understand this for Civ4)

	27-12-2004 09:50									#8
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If this is meant to be some offical AU poll for the mod or community, disread my vote. I do not want to impact the choice. I thought it was just a what if type of poll.

	27-12-2004 10:25									#9
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 If this is meant to be some offical AU poll for the mod or community, disread my vote. I do not want to impact the choice. I thought it was just a what if type of poll.

Why? Your opinion is as important and valid as anyone else's.

	27-12-2004 10:30									#10
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay It seems to me that this poll is premature since the issue is still under discussion. I'm about to present a piece of hard evidence.

Hard evidence that Mythic is conducive to better learning? I'm not seeing it. One form of "hard evidence" that I would accept is an actual AU course where Emperor-level players try their hand at Mythic and report how challenging/interesting they thought it was, and what they learned from it that they did not know from playing Emperor. Of course, such an exercise would be fraught with bias, but it's the best thing that I can think of at the moment.

	27-12-2004 13:32									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear Why? Your opinion is as important and valid as anyone else's.

One of the dangers of a democratic system is that a majority that has no significant vested interest in an issue can outvote a minority that has a much stronger vested interest in the opposite direction. I view vmxa1's attitude (if I'm reading it correctly) of, "From a personal perspective, I'd rather not have the change, but I don't want to get in the way of it if others do want it," as a perfectly reasonable response to that danger.

	27-12-2004 20:01									#12
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Well, I voted 'yes', and here's why, if anyone's interested. Though I couldn't read every post in the discussion thread in its entirety (especially as a fair bulk of it was between Christmas Eve and Boxing Day), I did atleast get a sense of most of it. All in all, I find Dominae's argument more compelling in all aspects except one. This is the 'tyranny' argument, where I agree with NAthan. Essentially, I feel why not add this level. Who does it hurt? People who think that Mythic Hero is a crutch, etc., don't have to use it. The rest of us can. There is nothing to lose here, really, provided no one is playing Chieftain anyway, or cares about their score. BTW, I think you guys need to define terms in your debate, as you seem to arguing 'tyranny' in two different ways . I wouldn't have said Dom was being tyrannical, but, in the most literal sense of the word, I believe Nathan to be correct here. Oh, and one thing I wasn't sure was mentioned was World Size. An extra Settler on a Tiny map is huge advantage compared to a Huge map, where it is a tiny advantage . The primary idea behind playing higher levels with your deficit is that you can outsmart and catch up to the AI. This is easier when the OCN is ~16 and you start with one city instead of two than when the OCN is ~5. Oh, and I don't know if this poll is just a general vote towards whether there should be a level between Emperor and DG or if it includes a specific concept of 'Mythic Hero', but I still maintain that the new level should mirror Deity in every way minus one Settler, as opposed to mirroring DG.

	27-12-2004 21:45									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear Why? Your opinion is as important and valid as anyone else's.

Basically it as Nathan said. I have no vested interest in the outcome, so let those that do make the determination.

Since I am loathed to mod my games, it matters not what others decide to add. Well I do enjoy seeing the mods that players come up with.

By the way I also enjoy the debates that take place.

	27-12-2004 22:36									#14
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Fine. It's 6-3.

	27-12-2004 23:03									#15
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 Oh, and one thing I wasn't sure was mentioned was World Size. An extra Settler on a Tiny map is huge advantage compared to a Huge map, where it is a tiny advantage

Actually, it's more a matter of civilization density than of world size. Since the maximum number of civs goes up with world size, the difference in the impact of the extra settler is not nearly as great as world size alone might seem to indicate as long as players play with the maximum number of civs for their world size. Still, even with the maximum number of civs for the world size, there is somewhat more room per civ on larger maps. And if players don't play with the maximum number of civs, the amount of room per civ gets even larger.

quote: but I still maintain that the new level should mirror Deity in every way minus one Settler, as opposed to mirroring DG.

My experiment watching AIs REX on Mythic Hero and the surrounding levels seems to indicate that somewhere in the general neighborhood of half the REXing advantage AIs get on Demigod comes from the other bonuses, not from the extra settler. If that result is typical, a difficulty level that is essentially Deity without the extra settler would be about as bad as Demigod in terms of AI REXing advantages, and would be worse than Demigod in other respects. In contrast, having the intermediate level be like Demigod except for the extra settler seems to split the difference between Emperor and Demigod reasonably evenly.

	28-12-2004 00:16									#16
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 There is nothing to lose here, really, provided no one is playing Chieftain anyway, or cares about their score.

My latest implementation idea would not require eliminating Chieftain, and would (presumably) increase scores on Demigod and higher (which no more than a handful of players currently play on in AU games) rather than affecting scores on Emperor and below (where the vast majority of people currently play).

	29-12-2004 02:09									#17
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I was thinking, perhaps a better poll would be: "Would you play the new Mythic difficulty level?"

This way we can verify Nathan's argument that there is significant interest in this new difficulty, and that it is not just something Nathan and Theseus want. We also make the votes of players like vmxa1 more meaningful, because in the current poll players who are too good or not good enough to play Mythic are in an awkward position to decide for those that have a vested/play interest. Finally (Nathan, you will like this one most of all), we avoid "tyranny" by those players who would not play Mythic but nonetheless do not think it is a good idea for AU. The final say would be left to the tyranny of the panel, hopefully based on the results of this new poll.

(I remember, now, why the panel was created: to completely avoid situations like this. I guess Nathan's problem with my "attitude", or at least his externalization of it, would disappear if I were on the panel.)

Let me know what you all think.

	29-12-2004 02:13									#18
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That sounds like a good idea, Dominae. Are we to consider these polls official, or is the AU Mod: Panel going to vote on it anyway, and just use these polls as indicators from the populous?

	29-12-2004 02:14									#19
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By the way, this is not simply an attempt to have the results go "my way". I do honestly think that this second poll I just proposed above is the one that would allow the panel to make the most informed decision possible.

	29-12-2004 02:17									#20
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At this point in time, "your way" is tied, or winning if you count VMXA1's vote.

	29-12-2004 02:17									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear That sounds like a good idea, Dominae. Are we to consider these polls official, or is the AU Mod: Panel going to vote on it anyway, and just use these polls as indicators from the populous?

They are official indicators from the populous.

The way the panel was set up, the panelists would have the final say on what to include or not include in the mod, but they would rely heavily on the community's input to make their decisions. So the polls, while necessary, would not make policy. This has worked out well so far, because never have the panelists gone against the majority's wishes.

	29-12-2004 02:34									#22
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Proper procedure would be for the panel to make the final decision. The polls would merely provide input for the panel to consider.

I would suggest that the new poll be desiigned along the lines of the following:

Question: If we offered a "Mythic Hero" difficulty level in between Emperor and Demigod, would you be likely to use it?

Choices:

1) I would not use Mythic Hero because I am already beyond that level.
2) I would start using Mythic Hero immediately in at least some games.
3) I am not currently ready for Mythic Hero, but would be likely to use it in the future when and if I get good enough.
4) I would probably stay on Emperor until I am ready for Demigod even if Mythic Hero were available.
5) I'm not sure what I would do when and if I get good enough to play on a level above Emperor.

Edit: I added "in at least some games" to the second choice to reflect the fact that some people play on different levels at different times - especially in AU games, where some courses are designed to be easier than others.

Last edited by nbarclay on 29-12-2004 at 02:54

	29-12-2004 02:46									#23
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Should we wait until this poll is done to start a new one?

	29-12-2004 02:53									#24
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I don't see a need to wait untiil this poll is over, but I'd like to allow at least some time for possible discussion of what the contents of the new poll should be.

	29-12-2004 03:06									#25
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Why not just go straight to the point and ask: "I would use Mythic because I find Emperor too easy and Demigod too difficult and/or not to my liking?"

Introducing choices for all the other types of AU players makes for a cluttered poll and excess data.

	29-12-2004 04:00									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Why not just go straight to the point and ask: "I would use Mythic because I find Emperor too easy and Demigod too difficult and/or not to my liking?"

Because skill levels are not static. What if Theseus and I are the only ones, or very nearly the only ones, who would use Mythic Hero now, but a few others would find it useful in the future as their skill levels increase? Keep in mind that Mythic Hero has potential value not just for players who would stay on it more or less indefinitely, but also as an extra stepping stone on the path of players who do eventually want to get to Demigod and perhaps above. Just asking how many people would use the level at one particular point in time would miss significant chunks of the picture.

For that matter, are you so sure you wouldn't have used Mythic Hero yourself if it had been available at the point in your development where it would have been a good fit?

	29-12-2004 06:27									#27
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You are asking people to vote based on what they may or may not think the usefulness of Mythic would be to them once they "graduate" to Emperor. I hardly think such players are qualified to judge if the Emperor-Demigod jump is too big, seeing as they have never experienced it. Your argument that you are "not alone" in feeling this way about Emperor implies that the other people feel this way about Emperor know what Emperor is all about.

Once you ask non-Emperor players if they think that Mythic is "a good idea", we are back to our old poll, which we already agreed is a bad idea (because people without a vested/play interest skew the votes).

All the panel needs to make its decision is knowledge of what percentage of Emperor-level players think Demigod is too big of a jump (thus, we should have a two-part poll); Monarch and lower-level players, it is assumed, will feel the same way about Emperor when they reach it in about the same proportion. With this information, the panel can decide whether the AU mod should or should not cater to this select group.

Might I point out that Monarch/Emperor players account for most of our player base, with about an even split between the two (according to recent DARs).

	29-12-2004 06:37									#28
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay For that matter, are you so sure you wouldn't have used Mythic Hero yourself if it had been available at the point in your development where it would have been a good fit?

It was never a good fit in my development; the existing difficulty levels were good enough for me. Pre-Conquests, there was such outcry about Emperor-Deity that Demigod was created, and I agreed with this decision. But I do not agree with Mythic for reasons I have already (tyranically) enumerated. Primarily, I do not think that a player should go up a difficulty level and still be as competitive in the early-game; Civ3 was not designed like this (notice that no efforts were ever made to make the late-game more "challenging" in the numerous patches), although it perhaps should have. This is my own opinion, and I am aware that others do not share it.

	29-12-2004 09:57									#29
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How about this:

Question: If a "Mythic Hero" difficulty level in between Emperor and Demigod were available, would you use it in the near future?

Answers:

1) Yes, I'm at or soon will be at a point where Emperor is easier than I want but Demigod is harder than I want.
2) No, I'm past the point where it would be useful now, but I probably would have found it useful previously if it were available.
3) No, I've played both Emperor and Demigod and prefer a jump directly from Emperor to Demigod.
4) No, I won't be ready to move beyond Emperor for a while.
5) Other (Please explain in the thread.)

That way we keep players who aren't at least close to ready to move beyond Emperor separate both from players who would use Mythic Hero (or would have used it in the past if it had been available) and from players who have played both Emperor and Demigod and think a straight jump is better.

	29-12-2004 19:19									#30
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How about a "I would use it if I still played Single Player games" option?

EDIT: Oh, and would options 1 and 2 be aggregated? What about 3 and 4?