31-12-2004 06:58									#1
	Firaxis Site UPDATED with CIV IV!!! Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

http://firaxis.com/games/game_detail.php?gameid=6

Ok, so no details or screens yet, but it's a start!!!

	31-12-2004 12:49									#3
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I expect (much (?)) info in january!

	31-12-2004 13:40									#4
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It's been there ever since the new look came.

	31-12-2004 13:44									#5
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And a news item on Apolyton a week ago.

	31-12-2004 15:03									#6
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Soren's powerpoint has a bit more detail about what we can expect...

	31-12-2004 17:02									#7
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Yeah, it's old news. But it's been updated like 10 days ago. I think I've read somewhere that we could expect info on cIV in early 2005. January, tell us everything

	31-12-2004 18:57									#8
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Shhht CyberShy, don't say such things. Your predictions have the tendency to not come true

	31-12-2004 19:48									#9
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I seen the screenies in PC-Gamer and I didn't find them to be too bad.

That said - Just about 99% of the whole thing will change before Nov-2005.

	31-12-2004 19:51									#10
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"Firaxis Games recently announced the development of Sid Meier's Civilization IV - the next iteration of the greatest strategy game on the planet! Sid Meier's Civilization IV takes the game to a whole new level with stunning 3D graphics, advanced multiplayer gameplay, full player-created scenario (mods) support, and cool new civilizations, technologies, and units!"

I hope this includes the ability to easily change the graphics of civ4 units/titles like we could very easily change the civ2 graphics.

The fact that civ4 is 3D might make this harder but it is not impossible, there is a free light version of MAX3D(forgot name) that is specially designed to allow players to adapt 3D game graphics so I hope civ4 it's graphics shall be compatible with this tool. If they have a licence could they even include that program in the main civ4 install I believe.

Also having easy to use OFFICIAL tools to place cities, units and civilizations is essentional for the developement of a big scenario making community. FTW had all those things and that is one of the big reasons civ2 has so many scenario's in my opinion. Everyone with an IQ above 80 could make civ2 scenario's.

	31-12-2004 19:57									#11
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If games like Morrowind can indulge the (ever-growing) home-grown 3D creators;

Then I cannot see why CIV4 would ignore this valuable source of modding.

Perhaps this CIV will have a long-term modder community like CIV2.

Only this time with 3D!

	31-12-2004 20:10									#12
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But when reading that stuff, always remember that some of it is PR, and that PR is partially BS. No, it really looks like Civ4 will be very moddable - all data contained in XML files, AI scripts written in editable Python files, as well as the ability to use Python for mod scripts, that's great. It looks to be at least as moddable as CtP. However, somewhere it said "Civ3 already had great mod support, and we want to enhance that". Now, that is BS - it was not until the expansions that many things made it to the editor, and even then, much remained hardcoded, and no scripting available - which is less moddable than Civ2 or SMAC, in fact.

	31-12-2004 21:03									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Solver "Civ3 already had great mod support, and we want to enhance that"

I never saw that. Source please?

	31-12-2004 21:11									#14
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Can't remember it, but I'm positive I saw it around the same time that Firaxis site was updates with Civ4.

	31-12-2004 21:16									#15
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Ahh, my mistake, it's a quote from CFC Civ4 factlist:

quote: Civilization III was extremely modable, so, why shouldn’t Civilization IV be just as modable or even more so? It will be. Our moders will be able to do anything from creating new worlds, units, technologies, and historical events (something they have been able to do in the past), to controlling the AI, something that they could not be able to do in previous Civ games. Basically, it provides full mod support

Since the factlist also contains some wuotes that are directly taken from people of Firaxis, I must have remembered this one as being said by Firaxis, too, which is not the case.

	31-12-2004 21:26									#16
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That is one more reason why you should visit Apolyton and not CFC Our fact list only contains facts

	31-12-2004 21:41									#17
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I went there during the hours when Apolyton was down .

	31-12-2004 22:02									#18
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Excuses, schmexcuses

	31-12-2004 22:59									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Shhht CyberShy, don't say such things. Your predictions have the tendency to not come true

The year isn't over yet, thgey still have time to release Civ4 (or maybe not )

	01-01-2005 00:31									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Solver But when reading that stuff, always remember that some of it is PR, and that PR is partially BS. No, it really looks like Civ4 will be very moddable - all data contained in XML files, AI scripts written in editable Python files, as well as the ability to use Python for mod scripts, that's great. It looks to be at least as moddable as CtP.

AT LEAST?

You don't have some buggy SLIC here, this is a full-fledged programming language. This is going to be w00tly moddable.

	01-01-2005 00:32									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Solver However, somewhere it said "Civ3 already had great mod support, and we want to enhance that". Now, that is BS - it was not until the expansions that many things made it to the editor, and even then, much remained hardcoded, and no scripting available - which is less moddable than Civ2 or SMAC, in fact.

C3 had FAR more moddability than C2 or SMAC. FAR more was hardcoded in C2 or SMAC. You're the one spewing BS.

	01-01-2005 01:05									#22
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Kuci, buggy SLIC? Exactly how many mods did you make for CtP? And exactly how many mods have you played for Civ3 that not only add new units and techs, but also introduce entirely new gameplay feautures, as well as absolutely change the AI? Even with my limited exposure to Civ2, I know very well it had scripts for scenarios... scripts that could create complex situations. Civ3 couldn't even have fixed alliances without expansions - made WW2, a basic scenario, impossible. Where's AI/event scripting in Civ3?

Remember that out of the box Civ3 had ridicilous editability. No starting points for map editing, many basic values missing from the editor... bah.

	01-01-2005 01:41									#23
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I don't think CtP's SLIC was buggy at all. What could be buggy was the C++ code called behind (SLIC, or python for cIV, is only a way to call the innards of the game - these matter and these are the complex thing, creating a scripting language is not as hard).

	01-01-2005 05:05									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker You don't have some buggy SLIC here, this is a full-fledged programming language. This is going to be w00tly moddable.

1. You're in no position to judge how buggy SLIC may or may not be. If you were, I would know.

2. How well Civ4 will do in terms of moddability all hinges entirely on the implementation. XML and Python are the nice and popular buzzwords of the moment, but in and off themselves these buzzwords are meaningless. Just because you use 'kewl' technology doesn't mean you can't royally screw it up. It entirely depends on how well the XML and Python functionality is hooked into the core game engine. If Fixaris does a good job on this, they can exceed the CtP series by a long shot. But if they do a poor job (and they do have a track record in this respect), then in spite of the fact that XML and Python sound far more impressive than AIP and SLIC, Civ4 would still fall miles short of CtP.

I have faith in Soren and the rest of the team and remain optimistic for the time being, but you can't make any assumptions in advance how well Civ4's moddability will compare to CtP's.

3. If you want to compare Python and SLIC as languages, I know both languages fairly well (which for SLIC is a severe understatement) and I can tell you that IMO SLIC is the superior one to use in the context of a Civ game. As far as the syntax, contextual constraints and semantics are concerned, Python is intended for power users while SLIC is far more newbie-friendly (which does not mean you can't do powerful things with it as well). And most of the people who will be using Python for Civ4 will be newbies.

Also, exactly because Python is a "full-fledged programming language" as you want to call it, I can see some serious problems arising: if people can program anything they want with it, it may open up Pandora's box for cheaters. Also, nefarious individuals could incorporate viruses, trojans and other malicious software into their mods and scenarios. Nothing kills a modding community faster than that, I can assure you...

	01-01-2005 05:35									#25
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quote: 1. You're in no position to judge how buggy SLIC may or may not be. If you were, I would know.

I read the CtP2 Source code project forum. Specifically, I've noticed LOTS of comments about bugs with SLIC functions.

	01-01-2005 05:37									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I read the CtP2 Source code project forum. Specifically, I've noticed LOTS of comments about bugs with SLIC functions.

Yes, that's because there's no point in discussing the 99% of SLIC that does work

	01-01-2005 05:41									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Remember that out of the box Civ3 had ridicilous editability. No starting points for map editing, many basic values missing from the editor... bah.

Starting points are for scenario editing, not modding. And there were workarounds made quickly. It was pretty simple, in fact.

Even considering the values that weren't unlocked in the editor, C3 had far more modability than C2. C2 had dozens of weird things hardcoded about individual units. There were entire guides devoted to listing these things (such as Musketmen obsolescing all other infantry automatically) that had been found out through painful experimentation. You could change the cost, upkeep, and required tech for an improvement in C2, that was basically it. You can add, remove, and wildly edit the effects of wonders and improvements in C3. NOTHING about the units, improvements, governments, or civilization advances is hardcoded, except maybe the different era graphics for Workers (I never quite figured out how it works). In C2, you could barely do anything. In C3, you can radically change the game.

	01-01-2005 05:44									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Even considering the values that weren't unlocked in the editor, C3 had far more modability than C2.

In Civ3, could you display a 'Hello world'?

I rest my case...

	01-01-2005 06:02									#29
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With that comment, you clearly show ignorance. First, it's logical that the comments are about the broken parts, not the working ones. Second, most comments about SLIC there are suggestions of improving certain SLIC functions or implementing new ones, not existing ones behaving wrongly. Third, with that "buggy" SLIC CtP has many mods that change/add much more to the game than any Civ3 or Civ2 mod could ever hope.

And reading the forum is nothing. You can not judge SLIC as buggy unless you develop some SLIC scripts for the game, which you have not done.

quote: I can tell you that IMO SLIC is the superior one to use in the context of a Civ game. As far as the syntax, contextual constraints and semantics are concerned, Python is intended for power users while SLIC is far more newbie-friendly (which does not mean you can't do powerful things with it as well). And most of the people who will be using Python for Civ4 will be newbies.

The great thing about SLIC is that it has a C-like syntax. Meaning that the learning curve for those who know C/C++ is very low. Python does not have a syntax that similar to C.

And indeed, the power of a scripting language in a game depends directly on how much stuff is exposed to objects available through scripting. As Locutus says, SLIC is not a fully-fledged programming language, yet most stuff in CtP is exposed via SLIC, making it very, very powerful.

	01-01-2005 06:07									#30
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quote: In C3, you can radically change the game.

Changes to units and buildings is not radically changing the game. Give me a new feauture. Implement units that you or another civ may or may not gain when a tech is discovered. Implement a new option when taking cities that would be to enslave population, adding the population in your other cities. Implement a migration model. Implement free defenders with each city founded.

You can not do any of those things in Civ3, because it does not have any scripting, and is poor for modding. Changing some game rules/numbers is not real modding. And all of those things can be done and have been done for CtP, which is radical changes - you can't do that in Civ3, period. Neither you can in Civ2, but at least it had some scripts.