02-01-2005 04:30									#1
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We have 1 prebuild in place now. Our original plan was to build zeus. This, in my opinion, is now obsolete. We can switch to the Mausoleum, which is what I like. Or we can go for The Great Wall, Temple of artimius, Great Library, or we slow things down and hope to get Leos, Michaels (sistine) Place, Knights templar, or one of the other early middle age techs.

I vote strongly for the Mausoleum, which will allow this city to become large in size and highly productive.

The Great Library & Great Wall will be useless, but will prevent one of our enemies from getting it.

Voice your opinion here, and we will vote on it shortly (the choice must be made within the next 3 turns else we loose shields).

Last edited by conmcb25 on 07-01-2005 at 19:07

	02-01-2005 07:54									#2
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Mausoleum sounds good to me.

	02-01-2005 14:56									#3
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Mausoleum

--Togas

	02-01-2005 17:42									#4
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Alright. Suits me.

* MrWhereItsAt shrugs

	03-01-2005 01:07									#5
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Voting for Mausleum; not least because I think that PAL wouldn't like it if we built Zeus in the near future.

	03-01-2005 10:34									#6
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The only thing that scares me though, is if PAL gets Zeus and decides to get rid of us. I guess they could get rid of us with or without, so it all comes down to trust.

	03-01-2005 12:08									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear The only thing that scares me though, is if PAL gets Zeus and decides to get rid of us. I guess they could get rid of us with or without, so it all comes down to trust.

Indeed. I really do get the distinct impression from the PAL leaders at the Banana-Cookie exchange that they are in this for the long haul though. Paranoid thoughts can't help us now at all, and, as you say, they could smite us without the SoZ should they wish to. BUT, if this thought occurs to them they will realise we aren't stupid, and wouldn't be the pushover that CDG was. It's in their best interests to work with us.

	05-01-2005 23:41									#8
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The germans have completed the mausoleum!

Currently we can switch to these wonders:
- the great library (completed in 17 turns)
- the oracle (completed in 10 turns)
- the great wall (completed in 10 turns)
- the templae of artemis (23 turns)
- the statue of zeus (3 turns)

The numbers are from 510 BC (turn 103). Hypnos will grow in 2 turns but we will need to increase the lux slider or that wf will go as a specialist. The GA will end after 6 turns which means we will get 6 less shields (currently there are 15 useful and one wasted).

The other possible wonders and the estimated build times are:
- sun tzu's art of war (30 turns)
- leonardo's workshop (30 turns)
- knights templar (10 turns)
- sistine chapel (30 turns)

We will research monotheism 19 more turns.
PAL are planning to build the Great Lighthouse (in 12 turns) and the Leonardo's Workshop (in 22 turns). Funny, I can't remember a discussion about that wonder, it was just mentioned once or twice.

quote: Pal's future research plan: Feudalism 5 turns (Hopefully done in turn 107) Invetion turn 113-114 Gundpowder turn 120-122(end of GA during research) Chemistry 128-130 Metallurgy 138-142 Military Tradition 148-154

That is all information I know.

Personally I prefer Sun Tzu or Sistine but this means 30 more turns not building anything in Hypnos. And the sistine is available only after theology which should be researched by us. IMO this will not happen for less than 30 turns. Our cities will grow but our GA will end after 6 turns.

	06-01-2005 00:08									#9
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The only one that is usefull is the oracle. The others are too far out tech wise IMHO. B@stards. I want them D E A D Dead. Hanging gardens is also an option, but DAM.

	06-01-2005 01:02									#10
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Oracle is a waste of shields at this point.

Any possiblity of researching the Monarchy tech in time to switch to Hanging Gardens without wasting shields?

It would function as the Mussieum in the city it's built + help with happiness everywhere.

	06-01-2005 01:50									#11
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The problem is tha Leos, Michaels, and Sun Tzu's will all go up to 50 turns from now when our GA ends. That is a total of about 80 turns that one of our MOST PRODUCTIVE CITIES WILL BE SITTING ON ITS ASS DOING NOTHING. Half of the game will be spent with nothing accomplished. I would rather have the city pump out settlers than just sit there that long. This really SUCKS. That was the one tech that was worth anything.

Hanging Gardens would be much better than the oricle, but we would have to go back to research the tech, which will be a dead end tech, as it will only serve us for the Oricle. Also, we would need a large number of temples to make it worth wild, and temples are expensive compared to libraries, which is what I planned on using for our culture.

ONE STINKING TURN. Well, 2 turns. But still. AAAAaaaargh. I want to rip their heads off and urinate on the stump.

I think we need to poll on this now. We go with Zeus, and disband the horses in cities to funnel shields, we go with the Oricle, which is almost worthless, but the next best thing, or we wait and go for Leos or Sun Tzu's (Actually, I think PAL wants Leo's, and as Michaels requires Cathedrals, Sun Tzu's is probably the best).

	06-01-2005 03:51									#12
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Remind me, when does Zeus expire?

We may want the Great Library. Sure, it doesn't give us anything worth a damn, but it keeps the other side from getting it.

Other than that, we should choose a wonder that will assist us in our ultimate role. It appears that PAL will build the uber-powerful growth and military wonders. Yay. Perhaps we oughta just focus on the scientific and commercial wonders?

I don't think we should detour our tech for Gardens. Going for Sistine is nice, but it really won't help us very much. Perhaps we should take the Library away from the competition, and then build libaries/markets/courthouses and become a peaceful republic?

But, um, yeah. This sucks. We don't really have a good "Plan B".

--Togas

	06-01-2005 05:22									#13
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I say Great Library.

	06-01-2005 09:43									#14
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I know the downside of a research path to monarchy but Hanging Gardens gets us 3 happy faces in the city that builds it and 1 happy face everywhere else and doesn't expire till steam power. And hopefully by then we would be close if not complete with a late middle age build up to kickass at the other continent.

Zues expires sometime mid middle ages I think.

Bad thing is the unit is pretty much obsolete now and its non upgradable. Free sheilds yes, but it aint a whole lot in compensation.

It maybe worth a short delay research wise to get hanging Gardens.

GK what do you think? Can we do it, is it REALLY going to screw us up?

Can those extra happy folks quickly make up for a detour in research?

I was thinking Temple of Artemis as well for the free temples but it expires with education, thats the problem so mnay of the available ones are too far out tech wise or will expire right after we get em, thats what got me thinking og HG.

I say we poll it.

And poll only what is realistic. If we are thirty turns from getting the tech for sistine and the palce will be built in 12 turns well then thats not an option. Thats an example off the top of my head, therefore not indicitive of reality.

	06-01-2005 09:49									#15
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I looked it up

Zeus expires with Metallurgy, the tech right before cavalry (Mil Tradition), and thats the path PAL is on.

GL is an option not because it will get us diddly squat but because we deny it to the other continent.

I dunno, but I would like to research the HG gambit.

GK can you run some numbers?

	06-01-2005 19:24									#16
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Ya, I will run the numbers tonight.

Gut reaction, Hanging Gardens or GL or Sun Tzu (PAL will research up to Sun Tzu, and once we get out of our GA, palace prebuild will work out, but we will have to switch early as Sun Tzu costs more than a palace).

	06-01-2005 20:28									#17
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I don't think we have to worry about denying GL over there; it's pretty useless over there with human oppoents.

Possibiilty 1 is that like our land mass, 2 civs ally take out 1. That makes the GL useless until we all meet each other, and in the mean time, one of the two allies bee-lines down the PAL path and the other takes the optional techs.

Possibility 2 is that the 3 civs stay at peace. In that case, anyone building GL causes the other 2 civs to both initally beeline to Education, merely granting the GL player Education & the direct prereqs to it.

	06-01-2005 21:15									#18
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I like HG better than Sun Tzu, give me happiness and watch my population bloom and be productive.

And like NYE again said recently population is everything

	06-01-2005 21:26									#19
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I would like to have the Sun Tzu but this means 41 more turns

What happened to the idea for moving our palace? We can build forbidden palace in Hypnos and disband Apolyton

	06-01-2005 22:52									#20
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I would say HG but I'd rather not research Monarchy. Sun Tzu would take too long (600 shields). The Forbidden Palace might be an option. I'm never been up on knowing where to build it but isn't building it now better than waiting?

	06-01-2005 22:53									#21
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quote: author=alski We have decided not to pursue Sun Tzu if you decide to go for it. We were considering going for Leo's, great lighthouse and sun Tzu's but would be more than happy to let you have it. How many turns could you complete it in? We could do it in approximately 30 turns but the people are split 50/50 on whether or not it would be worthwhile. We are 100% set on leo's and the great lighthouse.... Note:Sumer is also building a wonder - some have suggested it could well be the hanging gardens due to the GA trigger...

From alski at bananacookieexchange, interesting intell that may have bearing on the discussion.

Good point on the F-P Sir O.

GK, comments?

	06-01-2005 23:06									#22
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Next to the Palace is always one of the worst possible FP locations unless it's followed up by relocating the Palace. That placement only gets the increased OCN, and does not significantly take advantage of reduced distance based corruption for the nearby cities.

quote: Originally posted by SirOsis I would say HG but I'd rather not research Monarchy. Sun Tzu would take too long (600 shields). The Forbidden Palace might be an option. I'm never been up on knowing where to build it but isn't building it now better than waiting?

	06-01-2005 23:09									#23
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Perhaps we could ask PAL if they would object to us building the Statue of Zeus if it's likely we would be beat out to Hanging Gardens?

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 From alski at bananacookieexchange, interesting intell that may have bearing on the discussion. Good point on the F-P Sir O. GK, comments?

	06-01-2005 23:42									#24
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FP - Not in that location, unless we abandon poly and do a Palace jump. I like poly though. Also, it would move the center away from our iron, which would not be good.

I lean towards either the GL as a block, Sun Tzu, or abandoning it for a coloseaum (and loosing lots of shields). I have to go to a planning commission meeting tonight for work, and if I do not get home too late, I will do a full comparison and set up a poll, with only reasonable alternatives.

	07-01-2005 00:17									#25
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I'm not in favor of abandoning and losing the shields. Let's pick a backup wonder, and perhaps have Zeus as the back up.

Con makes a good point about the HG, but with Sumer possibly building it, will we be beat out of another wonder??

If we have a decent shot at it and it won't screw up our research to go for Monarchy, let's do HG, as it gives us the most benefits of any wonder out there. Sun perhaps would be second best. GL for spoiler. Zeus as our backup.

--Togas

	07-01-2005 01:47									#26
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What about the Knights Templar? Just throwing it out there. Not that exciting really but it is a possibility. Too bad we'd need Chivalry.

I agree that HG is the best followed by Sun.

	07-01-2005 01:47									#27
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Zeus costs less than all the other wonders and in fact we have only one or two turns before it would start wasting shields if we switch from another wonder to it; so it's not a good backup choice.

	07-01-2005 01:49									#28
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If we have a resonable shot at HG, lets go for it, with Knights Templar as a possible backup plan.

If we don't have a resonable shot at HG, then go for Zeus.

In any case, the decision needs made before the palace reaches 200 shields.

	07-01-2005 02:01									#29
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What we really need is a scientific leader. Are they on in this game?

	07-01-2005 02:23									#30
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Yes they are an wouldn't it be nice if the "scientific civ" got one.

I really hate the monarchy detour for HG, as much as the rest of you do, and another consideration is with 4 lux's and markets in the larger towns will we really need it despite it being the most utilitarian wonder we have left?

Thats assuming we can get markets built fairly easily which should be true with the commercial trait, correct? 50% cost?

Im just trying to throw up all the pros and cons of each as we discuss.

Last edited by conmcb25 on 07-01-2005 at 03:27