07-01-2005 07:55									#1
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Sorry guys, I had a real bad day at work today. Here is the basic facts and my opinion regarding the wonder & Hypnos.

Hypnos is making 17 shields per turn, with 1 lost to corruption.
Hypnos grows in 1 turn, making (I estimate) 20 shields per turn with 1 lost to corruption (if we play with the lux slider).
We have 6/5 turns left with our GA. Once the GA ends, Hypnos will be making about 11 shields per turn with corruption.
We have stored 173 shields at the beginning of this turn. 189 at the end.

We have the ability to build the following:

Zeus. 200 shields. Expires with Metallurgy. Produces 1 ancient cav every 5 turns, which when disbanded = 3 shields. Metallurgy will be researched on approximately turn 140, meaning we will get 8 units out of Zeus, or 24 shields back. Bad call.

Artemis. 500 shields. Expires with Education. Gives a free temple in every city. Education will be researched on approx turn 155. Minimal benefit at best, and as it will take most of that time to build it…. Waste IMHO.

Great Wall. 300 shields. Expires with Metallurgy. Gives free city walls and double vs. barbs. Taking this would be more of a spoiler against the other civs. A possibility.

Great Library. 400 shields. Expires with Education. Gives free techs that 2 other civs you have contact with have. A spoiler against the other civs. PAL would like us to go with this one, or at least some members.

Oracle. 300 shields. Expires with Theology. Doubles the effectiveness of temples. We have no temples. Waste of time.

FP. 200 shields. Will be produced directly adjacent to our Palace. We need Apolyton, and will not be able to do a palace jump for obvious reasons. I am STRONGLY against this.

Colosseum. 120 shields. Happiness producer. Will waste 69 shields (including this turns). This may be our best option, I am afraid to admit.

Market. 100 shields. Waste of 89 shields. We desperately need the gold, but we waste even more shields if we go this route. I would prefer a colosseum instead.

These would take some research:

Sun Tzu. 600 shields. Barracks in every city. This would be a good one. PAL is currently researching it, and it would be available for construction on about turn 107. It is an expensive, and would keep Hypnos out of production for 35 turns. I don’t like it, but it is acceptable.

Hanging Gardens. 300 shields. We would have to abandon our current research, and would loose 18 turns (lack of GA) of research. This would be close, if we slowed down the current production. It would be nice, but is not a great wonder. Also, the lose of research time would hurt us significantly, and would upset PAL. Although I would rank this on the top if we already had the tech, without having it I say it is unacceptable.

Kights templar. 300 shields. We would have to divert and research a tech we were planning on skipping, and this provides even less benefit than the HG. No thanks.

Michelangelo’s. Too far out, not possible to research in time.

Conclusions

So, for all purposes, lets just poll on the following: Zeus, G.Wall, G.Library, Colosseum, Sun Tzu. Nothing else makes sense. I am voting for Colosseum I regret to say. Please post as well as voting, that way we can come up with a second and third choice. Poll will last 3 days.

Edit by conmcb25: Note there is a lot of Wonder discussion in this thread if you want to take a peek: Wonders

Last edited by conmcb25 on 07-01-2005 at 19:08

	07-01-2005 18:53									#2
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Well not having the tech for HG really makes that suck

600 sheilds for Sun Tzu sucks

Zeus definately sucks

Losing 69 sheilds for Colosseum sucks

The Great Library sucks because we have a tech advantage and the advantage it will give to the other Civ's is minimal since Education is not that far off.

The Great Wall sucks because even though its lasts most of the Middle Ages after the barbs are cleared we really dont need it anyway because by the time the other continent is ready to invade us it will in all likelyhood be expired. And if PAL has hidden plans for our demise I doubt if city walls will stop them once we demobilize.

Boy Plan B is really looking like it sucks no matter what we do

Im leaning towards Sun Tzu then colosseum (since HG is unfortunately out of the question) but Im holding my vote for a couple of days until I see somemore input.

Just a word of wisdom, sometimes in life you have to choose the lesser of all evils. I think this is one of those times for us..................

Nice analysis and summary BTW GK

Last edited by conmcb25 on 07-01-2005 at 18:59

	07-01-2005 20:53									#3
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18 turns tech loss for monarchy for HG

I was thinking with Zeus, we'd keep the Ancient Calvary and scrape weaker units instead. This would decrease the sheilds we get back even more. We'd effectively have 8 3/2/2 units. Yup, below threshold.

Knights Templar doesn't expire until the Industrial era, and produce a 4/3/1 unit. We'd still keep the Cruisers and scrape weaker units. Not particularly attractive.

Artemis & Oracle are both a pure waste of time

Great Walls has some value. It keeps a civ on the other contienant from having a defensive advantage, which is important because a civ with this is less likely to be eliminated.


We're beeling towards GL + PAL is the only contact we know capiable of actually researching. -> useless.

Buildings waste a bunch of shields. 'nough said.

Summary, every choice is pretty bad, but the least bad in my book is Great Walls. Hoping that both someone on the far contient actually wanted to build it and that we indeed beat them to it. It is also the same price as HG, so if a miricle occurs and we somehow get Monarchy before it's built, we can switch it easily.

	07-01-2005 21:47									#4
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Knights Templar doesn't expire until the Industrial era, and produce a 4/3/1 unit. We'd still keep the Cruisers and scrape weaker units. Not particularly attractive.

The Crusader is a 5/3/1 unit which is a powerful unit in this age. Still this wonder is not that attractive. I'm not sure what wonder we should persue yet. I will be giving this some thought.

	07-01-2005 22:03									#5
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I would argue against building the Great Wall as it expires with Metallurgy. We are unlikely to mount an invasion until after we get this tech. Therefore it would not be a spoiler.

I am leaning toward wasting the extra shields and building a colosseum. It is painful but then we can get a marketplace almost built during our remaining GA. This combination would allow Hypnos to grow large and become a powerful happy city.

The Great Library would be my only other option as a spoiler. However, I do not think the other civs will go for this wonder anyway. The size of their cities and scores suggest to me that they are not at war and may also have an alliance. Therefore they are likely not too far behind in tech. The fact that China was able to build the Mausolleum also might support the no war theory. Since we don't have contact we can't confirm this but it seems resonable.

The Great Library would also tie up Hypnos for some time.

Instead of wasting anymore shields we should suck it up and build the colosseum followed with a marketplace.

	07-01-2005 23:11									#6
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Sun Tzu appears to be the only palatable option for a wonder, but I can see the argument for Colluseum and suck it up. It's about 3 turns of wasted production.

I'm going go vote for Sun Tzu, as I'd like to see us build a wonder, and it would help us cut costs by disbanding our barracks now.

--Togas

	08-01-2005 00:56									#7
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Just an idea : Which of Zeus, GW, GL, and Sun TZu are tourist attractions and if we go with each of those options, about how many turns in the future would we start drawing cash from each?

(every 4 gold = 1 shield when rushing.)

	08-01-2005 01:48									#8
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Zues is

GW is

GL is

Sun Tzu is not

I dont remember how it works with the tourist attraction. Isn't it like a thousand years or something before that kicks in????? And how much is it? One of you PhD candidates around here must know that one off the top of your head

	08-01-2005 01:51									#9
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It appears that all the ancient wonders are and only about a third of the middle age wonders........

Hmmmmmm

	08-01-2005 01:57									#10
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Only Sun Tzu is not a tourist attraction.
A wonder becomes a tourist attraction 1000 years after it is completed. This means around 100 turns because after 250 BC the turn length will be 10 years.

I have voted for the Great Wall. It seems the only useful wonder. It will be useful at least in the next 20-30 turns until we settle the island and remove the treat. I don't think it will be useful against PAL. This is already clear for everyone in this team.

	08-01-2005 03:37									#11
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Based on some information from PAL, I have done a quick study on our FP placement. It appears that although not optimal, we will get the benifit immediatly, and it would only start to be a negative in the industrial age if we switched to our FP. Our benifit would be an increase of about 38% in efficiency, while on our original site it would be about 42%. Our empire is small, and that 4.6% difference would balance out somtime around 130 turns from now. Guys, this may be the way to go, as we hope the game will be over by then anyways. Hmmmm, forgot to include any commercial aspects into those numbers, but proportionally it should be the same. Anyways, I will change my vote from Colloseum to FP. We can redo the poll if people suggest.

I sometimes get so cought up in the "perfection" attitude that sometimes the bigger picture gets lost. That is what happened to me here I am afraid.

	08-01-2005 04:53									#12
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Of all the options presented, Sun Tzu sounds most palatable at the moment, and that isn't ny much. I think it gives us the best permanent advantage, and is a good spoiler effect should we need to invade another continent.

That said, GodKing's FP data doesn't look too bad, the only black mark being that it hurts us in the industrial age. I know it's an elimination game, but with a mentality that insists that the game will be short, I think we may get in trouble over the long run, especially if the other two teams have formed an alliance.

	08-01-2005 05:47									#13
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In light of GK latest observation,
I'd like to change my vote:
off Great Wall
on Forbidden Palace

If the game lasts until the Industrial Age and looks like it's going much farther, we can consider a palace jump then.

	08-01-2005 06:01									#14
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing Based on some information from PAL, I have done a quick study on our FP placement. It appears that although not optimal, we will get the benifit immediatly, and it would only start to be a negative in the industrial age if we switched to our FP. Our benifit would be an increase of about 38% in efficiency, while on our original site it would be about 42%. Our empire is small, and that 4.6% difference would balance out somtime around 130 turns from now. Guys, this may be the way to go, as we hope the game will be over by then anyways. Hmmmm, forgot to include any commercial aspects into those numbers, but proportionally it should be the same. Anyways, I will change my vote from Colloseum to FP. We can redo the poll if people suggest. I sometimes get so cought up in the "perfection" attitude that sometimes the bigger picture gets lost. That is what happened to me here I am afraid.

Ya it was those dam evil PAL guys suggesting this. Those *******s trying to help us out

I say we redo the poll and add that option.

	08-01-2005 06:05									#15
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I'm going with FP as well. Tying up the city for 35 turns seems like a waste for Sun. We'd be able to build some settlers in this city which will result in numerous benefits such as increased unit support and more production centers with our new cities. I'm not sure GK weighed these potential benefits in his calculations. Ultimately having more cities is better than a perfect FP position.

My vote is for: Forbidden Palace

	08-01-2005 06:34									#16
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Should I just redo the poll?

	08-01-2005 06:40									#17
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No, don't bother con. We will just kill anybody who disagrees with our opinion.

	08-01-2005 07:38									#18
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing Our benifit would be an increase of about 38% in efficiency, while on our original site it would be about 42%.

That's quite startling! This efficiency boost will benefit only a few cities around Hypnos already, of course, so the cities to come nearer the PAL border would be quite useless, except perhaps as worker pumps, I presume?

Unless.... that boost is for our existing cities only, correct? Or does it consider the as-yet-unsettled cities' boost from locating the FP where we originally planned it?

We need to look at what the boost would be NOW compared to what it would be if we built the FP in the original position AND had settled all those other cities.

I have too many questions ATM to vote one way or another, but I REALLY don't want to see us waste shields on a Colosseum.

	08-01-2005 08:01									#19
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It will be a universal boost to all of our cities.

quote: in theory fp still gives a second core, it's just that the second core ain't worth - blip corruption by distance is still reset according to fp location. ie corruption due to distance is calculated based on the nearest corruption reducing wonder. There are three of these - palace, fp and sphq. corruption due to city rank is not reset by proximity to fp. ie - city rank is calculated purely according to distance from the palace. this is the major difference with c3c. corruption is capped anyway. so reducing distance corruption in a city with high rank has no real effect. the cities surrounding fp get no benefit unless they are in the unusual situation of having high distance but low rank.

So, with this being the case, and considering our realitivly small civ size, the FP makes sense in this city now. Sure, it would be better to have it over by pumpkin, but who needs perfict in this game? We just have to survive, and to do so, we need to kiss PAL's ass and to kill off others fast. This, we can do.

	08-01-2005 08:56									#20
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Ok, if we are talking about possibly tying up a productive city for a long time, what about Leo's?

In MP, Leo's is, I believe, the most powerful wonder in the game. Made even more powerful with the increase in upgrade costs (3 gold for every shield of upgrade cut in half is 1.5 gold per shield. Look how effective Leo's was in the Great Bobian war for GOW).

	08-01-2005 11:33									#21
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PAL are going to build it and we will need around 35-40 to complete it. The same case as Sun Tzu

	09-01-2005 02:27									#22
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Unless.... that boost is for our existing cities only, correct? Or does it consider the as-yet-unsettled cities' boost from locating the FP where we originally planned it?

The benefit with an FP is that it becomes essentially a wonder that provides the effect of courthouses hence the nickname "supercourthouse effect.

What GK is saying is that since the cities near the original FP location are some of the last cities we will settle, its there rank corruption that will really take precedence. Yes building the FP near will help distance corruption but the rank corruption is so high that it wont make a hell of a lot of difference.

Rough calcs that GK was playing with yesterday indicate that we will be better off for at least 130 turns just building the FP right now with the palce prebuild.

Thats basically the next 25% of the game. After that it would be better to have the FP near Pumpkin but the benefit would be minimal. And if its a big concern at that time, and we think the game may go on for a while longer then we can just move the FP again but at a time when we have more infrastructure and about the time will be enetering the industrial age so we will have more options to boost production (factories) and its wouldn't take so long to build.

I myself am thinking we build the FP, we need the commerce boost NOW, and as our new cities come on line they will be more productive.

The other option of course is build the FP elsewhere the hard way and the last estimate I saw is that it would take 50 turns.

I would rather have that 50 turns of benefit NOW to ensure:

1. We maintain the tech lead with PAL.
2, The cities we settle get productive asap.
3. So we can kick the other continents a$$.


Its going to be hard to anything but approximate the effect because of the commercial benefit where we get +2 coomerce at size 7 plus and +3 commerce at 12 plus.

That adds sort of a wildcard to the calcs because you have to compute all the growths as well.

GK did I pretty much sum that up correctly?

	09-01-2005 02:29									#23
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing No, don't bother con. We will just kill anybody who disagrees with our opinion.

Im with you my brother

	09-01-2005 03:26									#24
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I also change my vote to FP in light of the new data.

--Togas

	09-01-2005 04:47									#25
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 ...we can just move the FP again but at a time when we have more infrastructure and about the time will be enetering the industrial age so we will have more options to boost production (factories) and its wouldn't take so long to build.

I think moving the FP is rather easier said than done, to say the least. However, seeing as the only decent land we will have to the east is near CDG you later (and not north of there), the FP would be better placed perhaps closer to Hypnos than further.

I guess, if the other half ends up as more productive, we could investigate PALACE jumping. A difficult proposition, but possible, particularly given the work on this from the PTW ISDG.

	09-01-2005 06:09									#26
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Palace jump isn't what it used to be

And jumping a place into a group of high rank cities pretty much negates what you are trying to gain.

I agree on moving the FP.

I said if it becomes a consideration we can look at that in the future.

I never said it would be easy.

	09-01-2005 22:16									#27
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Ya, that is a good summary Con. Now, Just do what Con and I say.

	10-01-2005 00:23									#28
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In an elimination, an approxation is good enough.

There is a noticeable additional improvement for cities near the FP, but it's too long in the future for this game, particlarly an elimination one.