09-01-2005 10:31									#1
	Unorthodox Units Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Is there any way I can make a ground unit that can "run out of fuel" the way an airplane does? (is destroyed if not in city/airbase at end of x turns).

Failing that, can I make a ground unit that loses hit points every turn it stays outside a city like a helicopter?

Failing that, is there any way I can make a helicopter crash when it runs out of hit points?

Last edited by valmont on 12-01-2005 at 02:13

	09-01-2005 11:04									#2
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No, no, and no. Sorry. There's a tip on Scenario League site about mixing unit abilities. It'll tell you pretty much what is and isn't possible.

	09-01-2005 11:51									#3
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Tech's right on all accounts. What kind of unit are you trying to make. I'm sure something can be worked out. Remember, there is a "can attack air" option for civ2 units.

	10-01-2005 04:23									#4
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Heh, well I figured that if it were possible then I'd have seen it in someone's scenario by now, but one can always hope....

To learn the basics of scenario design, I'm making a very small, simple, silly mini-scenario. It's called "Happy Hour". There is no research, diplomacy or trade. The player's Civ only has one movable unit, a car. The only goal is to get the car from one corner of the map (your place of employment) to the other (your favorite micro-brewery) in 60 turns.

The road winds a bit, but following it is faster than heading straight for the goal since you get the movement multiplier, and the rest of the terrain is slow-moving, jungles and swamps. Plus you want to avoid the rampaging zombies and dinosaurs.

To make things a bit more interesting I thought it would be fun if the car had to stop for fuel periodically, and the fueling stations would be placed so you have to go a little bit out of your way.

So I have to decide whether to keep the car a ground unit that gets the road movement bonus but doesn't need to stop for fuel, or to make it an air unit that doesn't get the road multiplier (in fact, isn't obliged to follow the road at all), but does have to worry about refueling. A problem with air units is not being able to capture cities, and capturing the city ("entering the brewery") would be the event that wins the scenario.

If an air unit can be made to carry a ground unit, then when you get to the bar you could wake up your "office drone" unit and take the city that way.

A helicopter has the ability to capture a city, but like a ground unit doesn't need to re-fuel, and unlike a ground unit doesn't benefit from roads. The appeal of helicopter is the loss of hit points, and maybe if there are enough rampaging zombies and dinosaurs it would be worth stopping at an airbase everty few turns.

So that's my dilemma. I doubt I'll encounter many problems like this in the Medici scenario, but I'm sure to in the one I want to do after that.

	10-01-2005 06:29									#5
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You mean like tanks running out of gas?

	10-01-2005 08:16									#6
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Here's an impractical idea, but maybe it'll trigger a better one from someone else. Home the car to a city that'll be eliminated in x turns. To survive, the car must rehome before then. Use cities as "Gas Stations" (oops! Petrol stations? Filling stations? Paycheck-sucking stations?). Place them a little off the optimum route so there's some tension in the decision about when and where to stop for gas (i.e. rehome).

quote: The road winds a bit, but following it is faster than heading straight for the goal since you get the movement multiplier, and the rest of the terrain is slow-moving, jungles and swamps. Plus you want to avoid the rampaging zombies and dinosaurs.

That's a helluva commute. Must be good beer.

	10-01-2005 17:51									#7
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How about having all sorts of "obstacles" on the road between those gas stations (well, you already said you did, with those zombies and dinosaurs). Or maybe you can even add "potholes" or game crossing the road, invisible units with a tiny attack.

Give the car plenty of defense strength and hit points to comfortably survive each attack, but little enough so that it will have problems getting all the way alive.

Then make those "gas stations" allied cities. That way your car can gain hit points again by "stopping by".

It's like what FavouredFlight did in his Fellowship of the Ring scenario with the Athelas.

Edit: oh, and another thing that might be used... When a unit captures an enemy city, he'll gain back his full strength. You could use that idea for some extra beneficial gas stations (say, a truck stop with a motel and repair shop ).

Those enemy gas stations would have to be of a civ unable to build any units and allied to all the other "nature" civs to make sure they will remain empty.

Naturally, those should probably be way off the main road, so the player has the dilemma of going for full recovery with a detour, or a more dangerous trip without the detour.

Last edited by Mercator on 10-01-2005 at 18:00

	10-01-2005 20:40									#8
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I would just make the car unit a ground unit and provide enough zombies and dinosaurs to make it worthwhile to stop for a "tuneup" or some "bodywork" on the way. The running out of gas idea is great, but I can only see this working if you made the "car" was an air unit or a helicopter unit or a trireme sea unit. Problem is that then terrain becomes moot.

	10-01-2005 20:56									#9
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unless you make the car an trieme unit and the water as pavement,

	10-01-2005 21:00									#10
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Apart from the zombies and dinosaurs... I've thought about the obstacles I mentioned in my last post a bit more.

You could have things like road blocks, potholes and construction works or something. They'd all simply be weak enemy units that block the road.

The player can drive around them, but that will require going off-road a bit and that's especially costly if those obstacles have a ZOC.

The alternative is to "crash" through them (i.e. kill them and continue on the road). That will also slow you down, but not as much. It costs you some hit points though, so that will require you to stop at gas stations to replenish the HP.

The trick then is to make sure that there are so many obstacles that the player can't reach the end in time if he drives around all the obstacles.

	10-01-2005 21:11									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Broken_Erika unless you make the car an trieme unit and the water as pavement,

Well yeah, like I said, but still you can only deal with the ocean terrain.

	10-01-2005 22:33									#12
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true, but it might keep the player from cutting across the map
but it would be difficult to design the ocean terrain layout

	11-01-2005 03:41									#13
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Just use impassible terrain. Oh, wait....

	11-01-2005 06:49									#14
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Thanks for the ideas, everyone! This stuff is gold. You guys rock!

quote: That's a helluva commute. Must be good beer.

Heh, did I mention there is a semi-autobiographical basis for the scenario? There's a minute suburb of Kansas City named Parkville. Someone built a micro-brewery there, in the building that once housed the electric works, and called it The Power Plant. It's always packed between 5 and 7.

Mercator, love the contstruction site and repair shop ideas, will definitely use!

For the morbidly curious, I've attached the map along with the terrain files and unit file. The new terrain include asphalt, concrete, dirt, and cornfields, and river has been replaced with a 2-lane highway.

	12-01-2005 02:11									#15
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To give the player an added incentive to visit those out-of-the-way auto shops:

Suppose I put Leo's Workshop in the player's city. Then sometimes when the car captures an auto shop, an event goes off granting a tech that will "upgrade" the car to something with more movement, higher defense, etc.

The player would then see a text message with something like "The mechanic installed new spark plugs!"

I can't think of any reason this wouldn't work, but in my own games I rarely build Leo's so I may be overlooking something about the way it upgrades.

	12-01-2005 04:46									#16
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What do you think of these road construction units?

Attachment: roadblocks.gif
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	12-01-2005 06:12									#17
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quote: Originally posted by valmont The player would then see a text message with something like "The mechanic installed new spark plugs!"

Could also have a few nasty operators, "water leached into gas", which actually slow down your road warrior.

Units are nize!

	12-01-2005 22:55									#18
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Here are city designs for the gas station and auto repair shop. The gas stations were originally called "Quik-Stop", then I changed the name to "Pit Stop". I wanted to give the garage a clever name, but I couldn't think of one. "Mercury's Heel" wouldn't fit on the sign.

Edit: do you think the canopy over the gas pumps should be higher?

Attachment: garages.gif
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Last edited by valmont on 13-01-2005 at 10:53

	12-01-2005 23:00									#19
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feel free to use these
mabe you could have angry driver units that you have to avoid,

Attachment: carwork.gif
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	13-01-2005 11:19									#20
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Thanks, BE.

Boco, nice idea but mean! You already lose your vet status when you upgrade.

Here's my ideas for the various upgrades you can get for the car.

Honda 1: Player starts with this car. Basically a Musketeer (3a,3d,2h,1f) with added pikeman defense bonus & 2 space visibility (But maybe it should start with higher defense, maybe 5 or 6?)
Honda 2: Honda 1, plus +1a, +1d
Honda 3: Honda 2, plus +1 movement
Honda 4: Honda 3, plus +1a, +1d, plus ignores zone of control
Honda 5: Honda 4, plus +1a, +1d, plus AEGIS defense bonus
Honda 6: Honda 5, plus +1hp, plus alpine ability ("all-terrain vehicle")

Do you think this is a logical progression? I don't think it will be possible for the player to get all 5 upgrades in a single game, so I tried to spread out the benefits evenly.

	13-01-2005 22:25									#21
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Well, some ideas:

*Snag ("kill") drinking-buddy passengers en route for a future tech bonus (+5 score).

*Combine Leonardo with the opportunity to build Darwin's Voyage at some point, and a fundamentalist gov't. with no research, to limit expansion to a few customized options. E.g., make a tech tree of a Basic car, which can change to car A or car B (Musketeer slot). Car A then goes through a similar branch via the Knight slot (I think that works, maybe SL veterans can help you here), or Car B can be super-advanced to yet another type. Because you're only given two research options per game, you have to choose one of three paths of upgrade and stick with it. You might be able to work out something more with the Philosophy slot, or add non-unit bonuses via some other techs (discover mysticism, get extra spending money via temples in every pit stop, or else discover another tech that gives you some minor wonder, or grant another unit/bonus by events when a tech is discovered).

*The car is a naval unit, which carries a passenger air unit. The car is faster and tougher but only moves on roads, while the passenger can handle any terrain as a helicopter. If the car gets wrecked you can buy taxis to replace it, but they take support and aren't as strong or fast. With a "naval" car you can take advantage of Nuclear Fission, Lighthouse and Magellan.

*Make the driver a diplomat, so he can only move while OFF the roads but has the ability to bribe the taxis to use them instead of buying at a gas station, or bribe other enemies if he gets desperate. As in, "here, construction crew, take twenty bucks and get the hell out of my way!"

I hope some of those are useful.

	14-01-2005 08:03									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Elok I hope some of those are useful.

Hell yes! You've thought of some really clever, sneaky applications of the game mechanics. Thanks!

Your car upgrading scheme is dazzling!!!

Rats, I was hoping to get away without writing a new tech tree! *starts up note pad*

	14-01-2005 21:43									#23
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You're quite welcome; remember, every legitimate post I make is one post closer to a custom avatar for me, so we both win. I used to work on scenarios myself, but only finished one before I realized that I'm too frigging lazy to put that much effort into a hobby. I might get around to finishing Civ-Battleship, but then that's an absurdly simple scenario. So anybody who wants to cannibalize an idea of mine is welcome.

But I need to make one correction to myself-it's nuclear POWER that gives ships a move bonus, not fission. Fission just lets you build nukes. And don't forget that the lighthouse will also kill any planned trireme-type limit if you still want to integrate that.

And I'm not sure if the knight and musketeer slots will work with non-land units either, so that's a kick in the pants if you're planning on combining my ideas.

	14-01-2005 22:59									#24
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I've pretty firmly decided to use land units for the car in order to take advantage of the ability to charge different move costs for different terrain, and to allow the road/river bonus to be a factor.

Here's my first crack at how movement will work:

Road Multiplier = 2
Highways represented by rivers

Movement costs for terrain:
pavement = 1
dirt road = 2
grass, plains = 3
hill, cornfield = 4
all others = 5

The basic car will get 2 movement, so 4 on highways.

	15-01-2005 07:43									#25
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This looks like it'll be a great scenario!

	15-01-2005 08:05									#26
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OK, here's my first attempt at working out the car upgrade progression and stats for each model (quibbles and suggestions welcome!):

1. Basic car
moves 2 (x 2 = 4 on roads)
att 3
def 3

Choose between upgrade to either Defense or Speed:

2.A Defender:
moves 2 (x 2 = 4 on roads)
att 5
def 7
x2 defense vs. Horse

3.A Speeder:
moves 4 (x 2 = 8 on roads)
att 4
def 5


Defender upgrades to the super defense option:

2.B "the Hulk":
moves 3 (x 2 = 6 on roads)
att 6
def 10
x2 defense vs. Air
x2 defense vs. Horse


Speedy upgrades to either super speed or evasive option:

3.B "Greased Lightning"
moves 6 (x 2 = 12 on roads)
att 4 or 5
def 6
[x2 defense vs. Air (AEGIS)]?

3.C "Phantom"
At first I wanted to give this car invisibility, but then it can't attack ground units. [But then again would that be so bad? The idea of this car is not to attack but to evade. Thoughts?]

moves 4 (x 2 = 8 on roads)
att 6
def 6
see 2 spaces
Ignore Zone of Control
Alpine


Elok, if I understand your idea, Philosophy will let the player select between the first two options. To get the second opportunity to select, they will have to build Darwin's.

If they choose the Hulk then there is no further branching, so I should probably give them something else they can build instead.

quote: discover mysticism, get extra spending money via temples in every pit stop

I don't follow. Are you saying plunder is increased by presence of a temple in captured city?

I love the idea of getting bonus movement with sea units, but since they can't leave the sea then if the player encountered a roadblock he would have no choice but to attack it.

"Civ-Battleship" - as in, "G-4." "You sank my battleship!"?

	15-01-2005 08:11									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley This looks like it'll be a great scenario!

Thanks Smiley! The pros are coming up with great ideas.

Btw, can I use some of your & Curt's city graphics as terrain?

	15-01-2005 15:57									#28
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Totally cool work on those vehicles!

	16-01-2005 05:25									#29
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Can anyone help with the text to accompany the upgrades? All I know about cars is where to insert the fuel and the oil.

	18-01-2005 10:33									#30
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I've tested the givetech event with Philosophy and found that it works slightly differently than when you research Phil. You do not see any message that you have discovered Phil. Instead the window where you select the next tech to research just opens. You select, go on with your turn. Then that tech is received on the following turn. You do not see the "Golden Age" message at all.

This means choosing your upgrade path will be a bit clunky, as you will be able to leave the garage before your car has been upgraded.

My difficulties getting cityTaken to work actually led me to an interesting idea. I was puzzled about how to keep the player on the upgrade path he has chosen, and I think I have a solution. I am going to try a trick where a unit is created that will act as a flag. After the initial selection between speed and defense, a receivedtech event will create a zero-move defender in every garage. These units can never be built, they only appear thru this event. If you choose the Speed upgrades, one type of defender will be created (the "0" state); if you choose Defense, a different type of defender will be created (the "1" state). This way, the next time the player takes a garage, a unitkilled event can give the appropriate tech for the upgrade path the player has chosen. I haven't tested this yet, but I can't see why it shouldn't work.