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Shogun Gunner
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Potomac Falls, Virginia
Oct 2000
time: 00:31
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Well, I just finished reading the full entry for the "Winter War" and the "Continuation War". Its fantastic reading...I guess I was aware of most of the details of Finland's declaration of independence in 1917, to the building tensions with the Soviet Union. I found the wikipedia entry covering the Battle of Suomussalmi very interesting. What struck me as the most interesting was the details of the Finnish diplomacy in the 30's through the 50's. It sounds like a struggle to just survive and feed the citizens in the late 30's.
Some facts I didn't know:
1. Finland attempted to form a "nordic defense pact" with Denmark, Sweden and Norway which was made obsolete with the German invasion of Denmark and Norway.
2. One of the major reasons Russia agitated prior to 1941 against Finland was to obtain access to a lucrative Canadian-owned nickel mine.
3. Finland lost 12% of it's best farmland to Russia in the "Winter War"; regained it in 1941, lost it again in the Russian offensive of 1944.
4. The UK declared war, and even bombed Finland, in 1941
5. The United States refused to declare war on Finland.
6. Finnish volunteers were permitted to travel to Germany which formed a Waffen SS military unit serving in the Caucasus and Ukraine before being disbanded in 1944. This was done to appease Germany who expected a great deal more in Finnish support.
7. Finnish citizens of Jewish descent served in the Finnish army.
8. There was a field hospital/synagogue operating in support of the Finnish forces throughout the Continuation war.
9. Several Finnish soldiers. of Jewish descent, were awarded the German Iron Cross, but refused to accept the Germany war medal.
10. Helsinki, Moscow and London were the only European capitals not occupied by foreign forces of countries actively fighting in WW2.
11. Once a seperate peace was signed with Russia in 1944, Finland asked the German troops to leave, and they refused. Finland was forced to fight the German troops who were their allies prior to the peace treaty with Russia.
12. One of the concession Finland made to Russia was to allow a naval base, for 50 years, on a piece of land right next to Helsinki. However, this was returned to Finland in 1956.
In fact, Wikipedia's entries seem to suggest that Finland had few options in avoiding conflict, performed better on the battlefield than they did in diplomacy, and survived WW2 better than most European countries. It's a very interesting historical read.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:31
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Azazel, what's wrong in that? I mean, they were citizens....so they were also fighting like other ones as well.. ?? If we were to ever battle again, Jews would fight like everyone else, so I don't see any problems in that.
But it makes an interesting detail, there were several cases, where Jews of Finnish people would command German troops. Now that is certainly mindboggling. I remember reading there are no records of any German ever refusing to be ordered by a Jew in here. What a strange situation. Often times they were proven to be very good officers and fighters, to extent that they were given those high medals too, but they refused the German medals for obvious reasons. So this was a place where Jews and Germans cooperated, maybe reluctantly, but they did and no one made it a bigger deal than it had to be. But must of been akward, no doubt. Have to also remember, than the word about holocaust in its full truth wasn't known for a long time.
Also another weird situation was when we had a very skilled Jewish field doctor right up there in the heated battles, he would also perform emergency surgeries on Germans, saving their lives. Must of been a pretty mindboggling to go under his knife, being a German, and vice versa too. But he did what his job was, save lives no matter who it was under the knife.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:31
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Yes, but they didn't think it like that, like we don't share that view either. We don't think about fighting for Hitler, or even with Hitler. We fought SU, plain cold, period. Hitler had his own crap. He had his own things. He fought SU too. That was his war. We had our war. Two different things for us. You might see it as collective effort, we see it as separate effort. HItler attacked, we defended. We had no choice, where as Hitler wanted to destroy SU. Little countries don't really have the playing chips in their hands, and we were stuck with shitty cards. You play with what you have.
It is as if Osama would now come out and say we must fight Iraq, and suddenly the US became Osama's ally. Oh but they fight ont he same side.. Must be, must be....
Not from our view. And they shared the same view. And that is why they have said and stills ay to be happy to given the chance to fight for their own country.
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Comrade Tassadar
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaakko
The Nazis would've needed to invade Finland to get at Finnish Jews, pretty much. Compared to an irate Stalin purging half of Finland's population, that was a distant worry. |
I'm sure if they were able to annex the Soviet Union, Finland would not pose ANY trouble for the Nazis.
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:31
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quote:
Azazel, or they could have choose to die if Stalin had had his ways. |
Stalin had his ways in Russia, and most people have survived his terrible reign. Had Hitler won, The disaster would have been ten-fold, and would spell a catastrophy for the entire world, and of course, them as well.
quote:
The Nazis would've needed to invade Finland to get at Finnish Jews, pretty much. Compared to an irate Stalin purging half of Finland's population, that was a distant worry.
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Had the Nazis won the war against the SU, Finland wouldn't be much of a problem, cut off completely.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:31
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What many people need to learn is how the whole process came up. It was, again complicated, yet it explains a lot.
First of all, Hitler saw the opportunity in us after Winter War. He saw, that since we are likely to battle with the common enemy, he would benefit from our help. That would be, to fight SU.
Let's NOT forget about the past deals, between Hitler and Stalin etc. OK, so it's not like Hitler was really fond of us, he was totally cool that we would belong to SU first. It became a problem later on, as Hitler didn't respect the deal with SU anyway.
So, some help was promised even in Winter War, but since it was going down surprisingly well for us, it played against us since the international help became non-available. Everyone thought we'd be able to handle SU. Which wasn't the case of course. It was all an illusion. Yes, in individual battles we were very succesful, but in the big scheme of things, we'd get it in the butt and hard eventually, but international community saw 'hey they can handle themselves', so the big help never arrived, which we relied on. We relied on fighting until the help comes and then keep on fighting with the help. So it was kind of a ... catch 22.
Now, became peace. Far from peace really, but guns silenced for a while. We both saw, it would be a battle, eventually, and most likely soon. Hitler saw it too. It didn't actually take a rocket scientist to see it coming.
So, he wanted to take advantage and give food and guns, yes, food and guns and also commit troops in here. We did like the food and guns. We were kind of hmmhmm with the troops, as it would make us in different position. However, SU is going to attack any day now, forget about the last battles, this time it's for real, they learned, they won't do it like last time and we don't have anything to left to defend ourselves, what are you going to do? Surrender and die, or die fighting? Last option became more evident.
So, the process of how the help came is also complex. President Risto Ryti knew he had to make a decision. He KNEW, that if he would take this case to the parliament and all the proper instances to vote on it, to negotiate and to weigh Hitler's proposition, what ever came out of that would not be good. Should we accept, we would truly become an ally of Hitler. Should we not accept, we would be yesterdays news in the first weeks, and get it in the butt. Hard.
So he was in a TOUGH spot. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. So he made a plan. He would sign a SECRET pact with Hitler. Now this plan is GENIOUS from our part. You prolly have not read about it. But this is how it went down, the talks about there was no official pact between us, thus we're not allies.. yeah yeah.. true.. but then again not true.. and this is the genious part.
He travelled to Germany to make to deal, however NOT advicing anyone about it. He would make the deal by himself, on his own name as the president. Not informing proper instances about it. However, according to our laws, he could not sign that kind of a pact on his own, not consulting about it first. But this was the only way.. so he hang himself with this. he would take the responsibility. Now the help would come, food, guns and troops, there was a secret pact. Yet if allied forces OR Hitler would rely on this pact, it was an illegal pact you see... so in a way he fooled Hitler. We still wouldn't be allied with Hitler, because he can't make a decision like that and how it went down. But yet he did. On his own accord. And that's why after the war he was sent to jail. He did not love the situation or like the deal, but he saw this the only way to get help, basically for free without signing anything that actually would hold in any courts etc, as .. he couldn't have done it in the first place, so it was like an emtpy cheque. But he had to keep it a secret, because if people would know about it, it would hold weight. So he sacrificed himself in the same stroke of pen at the same time hanging himself with it.
Quite genious strategic move. And at the end.. it worked.
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12-01-2005 00:28
you too 
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