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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:31
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Waahh. Heaven forbid that the US and its WOT allies take enemy combattants prisoner and hold them for a couple of years in less than five star quality accomodation.
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If I were subject to the treatment of the prisoners at Guantanamo, and had the most tenuous means of ending my life, I would surely take it.
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Of course nobody can guarantee that all of them had by their actions merited apprehension, and many have been released (some of them also as "gestures" to allies), but I'm with the US authorities on this, conditions being as they were it was better to be safe than sorry.
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Then shoot them on the battlefield, in combat. When they are prisoners, they are subject to justice which history has shown is the best way of determining guilt or innocence.
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Or would you rather the US and allies hadn't taken any prisoners at all that couldn't be brought before a judge, for reasons of confidentiality/sensitivity or hopes of extracting knowledge of enemy infrastructure etc.?
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Yes. Useless intelligence extracted under torture is not worth sacrificing the only thing that defines your civilisation.
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These guys in Guantanamo aren't wrongfully imprisoned suspects or anything of the sort, they're known enemy combattants.
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Then why are they being released in droves per political pressures? If they're known enemy combatants, why have they not been subject to the preliminary hearing that the Geneva convention requires for that definition (and further to that definition, requires better treatment)?
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Save the massive indignation for a human rights cause that actually generates true sympathy for the victims, not just knee-jerk anti-Bush admin reactions. It's not that there aren't enough to choose from in the world today.
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Save the hystrionic gunslingning attitude to solving problems. Guantanamo bay and it's equivalents in the UK are imo the biggest victims of the WoT because they sacrifice justice, which is what defines a civilisation.
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Ted Striker
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United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Winston
The term torture is being twisted and redefined to suit the average frothing critics' contextual needs. There are varying degrees of pressure, physical or not, that can be used to extract information from a non-cooperative prisoner. Some of them would constitute torture, others wouldn't. You are free to guess which kind I was thinking of.
Enemy combattants don't fall under the Geneva Convention as it is being interpreted by U.S. authorities. Those are prisoners-of-war you're thinking of.
But I do agree that there is cause for monitoring closely the methods that are being applied by democratic governments in the WOT. I also agree that we're in a situation where we're testing the very boundaries of justice and due process, one of the important foundations of our free societies.
I just don't believe, with regard to the Guantanamo detainees, that the U.S. could realistically have handled it much differently, faced as they were with a very unconventional kind of warfare. And I certainly have very little sympathy for the combattants in question, whom I presume at the time of their capture were deemed so hardcore they either had to be killed or held indefinitely. |
That argument is a different one and is complteley irrelevent.
If you want to hold someone in prison, you need a good reason.
The UK, Australia, and Canada have all asked for their citizens back because we took them with NO GOOD REASON. PERIOD.
Enemy combatants my ass. 
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:31
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quote:
And I certainly have very little sympathy for the combattants in question, whom I presume at the time of their capture were deemed so hardcore they either had to be killed or held indefinitely.
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But again why release them, and to my knowledge there have been no problems with those already released. Indeed, research their lives and one sees this "hardcore murderer" thing to be most likely a misconception.
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Enemy combattants don't fall under the Geneva Convention
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No enemy combatants is a term quite distinct, and requires a preliminary hearing to establish that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanta...on_of_prisoners
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The U.S. claims to have classified the prisoners held at Camp Delta and Camp Echo as illegal combatants, but has not held the Article 5 tribunals that would be required by international law for it to do so. This would grant them the rights of the Fourth Geneva Convention (GCIV), as opposed to the more common Third Geneva Convention (GCIII) which deals exclusively with prisoners of war.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_combatant
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The term torture is being twisted and redefined to suit the average frothing critics' contextual needs. There are varying degrees of pressure, physical or not, that can be used to extract information from a non-cooperative prisoner. Some of them would constitute torture, others wouldn't. You are free to guess which kind I was thinking of.
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You would only have it if it was being used in the "inquisition" sense.
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Torture is the infliction of severe physical or psychological pain as a means of cruelty, intimidation, punishment, for the extraction of a confession or information or simply for the entertainment of the perpetrator.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture
The key difference here of course being state-sponsored torture. As I use the definition here, the defintion between psychological and physical is irrelevant, since it renders any confession or intelligence to be useless.
I strongly suggest you fully read Wikipedias "torture" article, including the methods, and then tell me what you think of Guantanamo bay's methods. With special attention to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:31
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Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
I have a feeling at some point many of you will suffer for what is being done in your name - so laugh it up boys.
But hopefully I'll be wrong about that. |
Let me aquaint you with the Khadrs.
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/03/0...da/khadr_040304
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'We are an al-Qaeda family': Khadr son
Last Updated Thu, 04 Mar 2004 19:26:12
TORONTO - A Canadian who was released from Guantanamo Bay in October says he lied about his family's ties with al-Qaeda and that he was trained to become a suicide bomber.
THE NATIONAL DOCUMENTARY: The Khadrs
In a documentary aired Wednesday on CBC's The National, Abdurahman Khadr said his father was old friends with al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden and that his brothers attended terrorist training camps.
Abdurahman Khadr (file photo)
"Until now, everybody says we are an al-Qaeda-connected family but when I say this, just by me saying it, I just admitted we are an al-Qaeda family. We had connections to al-Qaeda," said Abdurahman Khadr.
The family has always disputed claims that its patriarch, Ahmed Said Khadr, was a senior al-Qaeda operative and fundraiser, saying he collected money for charities. He was killed in Pakistan in October 2003.
Abdurahman Khadr says he was sent to Afghanistan by his father "to become an al-Qaeda, was raised to become a suicide bomber, was raised to become a bad person."
In 2001, Abdurahman was captured in Afghanistan and held at the U.S. military detention compound at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. He was freed last fall after agreeing to co-operate with U.S. authorities, he says.
Another brother, Omar Khadr, is believed to be in the same prison.
Abdurahman's mother, Maha, and sister, Zaynab, say the family supported the al-Qaeda cause, but insist it was never an accepted part of the terrorist organization. They say that Ahmed Said Khadr was proud to die as a shaheed, a soldier of Islam.
"We believe that death comes when God had planned it, before He created the humanity, it's planned, so I just accept, [but] it hurt," said Maha.
"We believe dying by the hand of your enemy because you believe in…you're doing it in the way of Allah, that it's the best way to die," said Zaynab. |
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12-01-2005 10:39
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