12-01-2005 14:45									#61
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Incidently, old man Khadar died in a shoot out with Pakistani police. His youngest son was on the scene and was shot in the spine. There was some outrage among the Khadr's when Canadians expressed anger at mom Khadar and young, shot, son returning here for free healthcare.

This is really ****ed up.

	12-01-2005 14:51									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Then we should apologize, drop him on a battlefield and blast him.

Or, you could go a step further as the Macedonian Government did, shoot some illegal immigrants from Pakistan, dress their coprses up as "terrorists" and film the bodies to curry favour with the USA.

	12-01-2005 14:56									#63
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Yep. There's absolutely no possibility that someone looking for 'traditional' education in Pakistan could ever be any threat to US or Austrailian security. Nope. None at all.

Wanna bet this loon gets his own detail on return to down under?

	12-01-2005 15:05									#64
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Generally it is not nice to hold people without a trail but I can't think of a single example of an unlawful combatant recieving a nonmilitary trail in the history of the world. Traditionally, if you were a combatant who was caught not wearing a military uniform then you were simply shot as a spy or sabateur.

	12-01-2005 15:07									#65
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That's about right.

	12-01-2005 15:09									#66
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But these guys were picked up in Pakistan, not Afghanistan.

	12-01-2005 15:11									#67
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Some were picked up in Pakistan, yes. The Al Qaeda family you linked to was involved in a shoot out with the Pakistani military if I am not mistaken.

That sounds like being a combatant to me.

	12-01-2005 15:15									#68
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it's a truely ****ed up situation. We have a famliy claiming Canadian citizenship after a shoot out with Pakistani police.

The mother and a 14 year-old boy with a serious wound are expeditted back to Canada.That required issuing of emergency papers. What happened to their original Canadian passports, btw?

Then other sons turn up and tune us into what the family is all about, as if the mother telling the CBC that she did not want her sons to grow up in the West because she did not want them to become homosexuals was not enough.

My question would be what is protecting the wounded youngest one from being turned gay by the lurking Ashers?

	12-01-2005 15:17									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Some were picked up in Pakistan, yes. The Al Qaeda family you linked to was involved in a shoot out with the Pakistani military if I am not mistaken. That sounds like being a combatant to me.

By that measure, Timothy McVeigh(sp) was a combatant, and not simply a not so common criminal.

	12-01-2005 15:27									#70
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That's an interesting point, however, I think there is a critical difference. Islamic militants form a realistic, wide spread, and creditable threat to the existance of the Pakistani state while two nutters in Oklahoma didn't. Islamists have dedicated themselves to armed insurection in Pakistan (and other places) and they have assassinated or attempted to assassinate numerous government officials.

In short Pakistan could realistically describe the Islamists as rebels in a civil war while the same cannot be said of McVeigh.

	12-01-2005 15:41									#71
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I think McVeigh (or his friends) would have described themselves more closely to the rebels in a civil war than you would wish.

Basic point is they were not apprehended in a war zone, unless the GoPakistan has radically changed their position. So execution of combatants out of uniform does not apply, yes?

	12-01-2005 15:42									#72
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Of course, it does to those grabbed in Afghanistan and now in Iraq. Do the GC fanatics realise this?

	12-01-2005 16:48									#73
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quote: Generally it is not nice to hold people without a trail but I can't think of a single example of an unlawful combatant recieving a nonmilitary trail in the history of the world. Traditionally, if you were a combatant who was caught not wearing a military uniform then you were simply shot as a spy or sabateur.

I can't think of any situation like this because "unlawful combatants" (or those alleged to be which still hasn't been established) are supposed to receive a preliminary hearing which hasn't happened .

	12-01-2005 18:13									#74
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I don't suppose it's possible to imprison people without the torture, since we don't get much intel from them anyways? Just a thought.

	12-01-2005 18:26									#75
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Of course, it does to those grabbed in Afghanistan and now in Iraq. Do the GC fanatics realise this?

Depending on the individual case,yes.

	12-01-2005 18:28									#76
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The uniform doesn't have to be there, BTW. Spontanteous resistors to an invading force who don't have time to get a uniform are to be treated as PoW.

Unprotected prisoners are those who use their lack of uniform as a disguise to facilitate their operations in enemy controlled territory.

	12-01-2005 18:49									#77
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One of the Brits to be released was in prison in Afghanistan for a visa violation. He was in prison before, during and after the US invasion.

For this he gets 3 years interrogation and torture, without any charges being brought or a trial.

I have no problem with terrorist being held by governments, but I have a massive problem with governments locking anyone up they feel like with no charges or trials.

What if it was you?

The Brits, when returned, will face questioning to see if we are going to charge them. But at least they'll be back in some kind of official legal process.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4163641.stm

One of the most stunning things is that the prisoner's defence representative isn't even allowed to talk about the allegations of torture the prisoner has made?

Also here's one of the brits' letter to the US forces holding them:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3706428.stm


History will view Guantanemo with disgust.

	12-01-2005 18:52									#78
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Of course, it does to those grabbed in Afghanistan and now in Iraq. Do the GC fanatics realise this?

Only if a preliminary hearing dictates that they are enemy combatants.

	12-01-2005 19:18									#79
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One of the Brits was picked up in Pakistan by the CIA (then TAKEN to the war zone), and one was in Zambia.

I'm not even sure what allows them to be arrested and shipped to Gitmo, they can't be 'unlawful combatants' if they aren't even in a combat zone.

This seems to suggest that US intelligence forces can arrest people anywhere in the world, take them to Gitmo, leave them there as long as they want. Terrifying.

	12-01-2005 20:14									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Waahh. Heaven forbid that the US and its WOT allies take enemy combattants prisoner and hold them for a couple of years in less than five star quality accomodation. ---

In the specific case mentioned in the OP, what makes the man:

1) enemy?
2) combattant?

	12-01-2005 21:13									#81
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the brits won't be charged because we can't use the evidence gained by the americans (such as it is) against them in a british court.

it goes without saying that most of the people held by the US are guilty as sin, although there were some rather interesting stories to come out of the whole thing, such as the 'british' man who when picked up on the battlefield, claimed he had travelled there to attend a computer course...if you're going to tell a lie, may as well be a big one!

of course some are still considered to be dangerous and will be have to be watched 24/7 by the police/security services, this bill will run into £100000s annually, your taxes at work folks. personally i think they should have been left to rot.

	12-01-2005 23:28									#82
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Of course, it does to those grabbed in Afghanistan and now in Iraq. Do the GC fanatics realise this?

I'd agree that those nabbed in Pakistan were not captured in a war zone. I also believe the Bushies have a legitimate case for many unlawful combatants but that they have extended the definition to places it doesn't belong.

	12-01-2005 23:50									#83
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I haven't investigated the specific case mentioned in the OP, so I really couldn't tell you. The U.S. authorities must've had reasons to have him handed over from the Pakistanis though, other than that he worked as a cleaner, had kids and was on a bus don't you think?

	12-01-2005 23:53									#84
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As I recall the captured Al Qaeda handbook advised terrorists to always claim they were tortured even if this is a total lie.

	13-01-2005 00:40									#85
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Just like a massive **** like Winston to condone wanton torture and systematic breaches of human rights...

	13-01-2005 01:02									#86
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Where did I do that, and what exactly is your problem?

Do you really think you're gonna win over people with that charming attitude of yours?

	13-01-2005 01:03									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin As I recall the captured Al Qaeda handbook advised terrorists to always claim they were tortured even if this is a total lie.

So, in your eyes, if someone claims they were tortured they're basically admitting to being a terrorist?

	13-01-2005 02:08									#88
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they are in denial

so next time a US citizen gets declared an enemy combatant by whoever and tortured for information I suppose that is okay too?

	13-01-2005 03:13									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Where did I do that, and what exactly is your problem?

you seem to be supporting the idea of Gitmo, so that is my 'problem' - that and your stupidity for asking a question where the answer was so obvious...

	13-01-2005 03:38									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie So, in your eyes, if someone claims they were tortured they're basically admitting to being a terrorist?

No. In my mind it is a baseless accusation until hard evidence proves other wise.