13-01-2005 15:46									#31
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quote: On a related note , this is why I support taking sections of the desert , or uninhabited islands , or some such , and converting them into "exile colonies" . This neatly circumvents all the moral questions associated with the death penalty and life imprisonment . Have crimes calssified on four levels - and have a colony for each level . Every month , send in enough food to sustain the persons inside . There is to be no interaction between the people inside and the people outside . I mean none . No laws , no rules , just what the inmates can build up . Only water and food ( and , if necesary , medicine ) to be supplied inside .

That plan only works until the President's plane crashes into one of them, and we have to send in Snake to get him out alive...

	13-01-2005 16:37									#32
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quote: This completely circumvents any question of moral debate - the state does not punish at all , just that the person is let loose amond others of his/her own kind . Also , to prevent escapees , have then tattooed ( under anasthesia , or course , so that they undergo no pain and the state is not implicable ) in five places - their forehead and the area just back of the neck , the tips of all their fingers , the back of the palm , and the chin.

Actually it doesn't, you've only provided a very ad hoc utilitarian approach, completely ignoring the Kantian objections, which very loosely speaking, amount to the measures relevance in justice, which I might add is sorely lacking. Put simply, unless they can escape from such a colony, the state is responsible for their upkeep and accordingly any deaths that may occur.. so if you dont want them to escape you need a prison, and furthermore their preservation for it not to constitute murder.

quote: Kill this sick 12 year old . Then find out why he did it , and kill the person who abused him ( assuming he was abused ) .

Which will solve absolutely nothing. You don't solve a problem by either the person in whom it manifests, or killing abusers. It's such an endemic problem that it needs to be addressed on a far more pragmatic level. Unless you're seeking the genocide of a significant fraction of your population of course.

But of course more fundamentally, I don't think you have a clue about the subject and the people and the nature of the problem .

To understand it requires looking at it in the context of someones life... you can't just interrogate someone finding out on a very shallow level why they did it, and then send them off to ol' sparky.

	13-01-2005 17:07									#33
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raping toddlers is bad mkay

	13-01-2005 17:29									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly That plan only works until the President's plane crashes into one of them, and we have to send in Snake to get him out alive...

And besides, how many Australias can the world take?

	13-01-2005 17:30									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf raping toddlers is bad mkay

Wow, you've really given me a lot to think about. I have learned a great lesson here today!

	13-01-2005 17:54									#36
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The victim wasn't a baby
The victim wasn't a toddler
The victim was 3 years old.

This only drops the heinousness from a level 10 to a level 9.5 in my book, but its important to pay attention to the facts of the case and not allow passions and emotions to be inflamed due to mischaracterizations and exagerrations.

	13-01-2005 18:33									#38
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The death was caused by blunt force to the head. I seriously doubt there are any 12-year-olds who don't know kick, punch, or club someone in the head. Incidentally, it doesn't seem clear that there was an intent to kill.

	13-01-2005 18:56									#39
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I do know one thing - the quick killing or permanent exile of child molestors will make people not do it .

	13-01-2005 19:00									#40
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You know that based on what? Child molestors aren't exactly well-known for reacting rationally to threats ...

	13-01-2005 19:18									#41
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I'm almost as sickened by the reactions of some of the people here as by the crime itself. Do you people understand what a 12-year-old is??? Can you really believe that this shows he is irrevocably an evil person?? It's absurd to destroy someone's life because they had some sick, confused ideas as a kid. Now if it turns out that he seems to be psychological uncurable, sure, he can spend the rest of his life in a mental hospital, but that's quite a conclusion to jump to.

	13-01-2005 19:26									#42
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Verto, how exactly does making a thread about this incident enhance our experience at Apolyton?

	13-01-2005 20:22									#43
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I would say locked away for life

and yes, I think that even a 12 yearold can be a irrevocably evil person

I mean, how could you ever get pass that?

if I did that, I wouldn't want to live

JM

	13-01-2005 20:48									#44
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I think for some people here it's been too long since they were 12. 12 year olds are not naive infants, and by that stage can be quite vicious. At the age of 12 they can act rationally for the most part, and usually know the difference been right and wrong. A 12 year also would have been around long enough that he may have heard of prison in some context. For middle schoolers it is cool to be as violent and as vulgar as possible, and so he may have heard it from one of his classmates. It's possible this was done to him, it's just that at age 12 that isn't nessecarily the case. And even it is was done to him, that does not excuse murder, and it's nessecary for the protection of society that (persuming this kid isn't actually insane), this kid be locked away for life.

	13-01-2005 20:48									#45
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quote: Originally posted by civman2000 I'm almost as sickened by the reactions of some of the people here as by the crime itself. Do you people understand what a 12-year-old is??? Can you really believe that this shows he is irrevocably an evil person?? It's absurd to destroy someone's life because they had some sick, confused ideas as a kid. Now if it turns out that he seems to be psychological uncurable, sure, he can spend the rest of his life in a mental hospital, but that's quite a conclusion to jump to.

Indeed.

There is very little in common between me as a twelve-year-old and me as a twenty-one-year-old. Heck, I went through a Libertarian and an Absolute Monarchist stage at fifteen and I wash my hands of those entirely.

	13-01-2005 21:04									#46
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm Kill this sick 12 year old . Then find out why he did it

Um...I don't think that would be a very effective route to finding out why he did it...

	13-01-2005 21:42									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi I think for some people here it's been too long since they were 12. 12 year olds are not naive infants, and by that stage can be quite vicious. At the age of 12 they can act rationally for the most part, and usually know the difference been right and wrong. A 12 year also would have been around long enough that he may have heard of prison in some context. For middle schoolers it is cool to be as violent and as vulgar as possible, and so he may have heard it from one of his classmates. It's possible this was done to him, it's just that at age 12 that isn't nessecarily the case. And even it is was done to him, that does not excuse murder, and it's nessecary for the protection of society that (persuming this kid isn't actually insane), this kid be locked away for life.

"Too long since they were 12"? I'm 14!

	13-01-2005 21:45									#48
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Then you're too immature to have a valid opinion.

	13-01-2005 22:04									#49
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I was about the same since I was 12

except that I play FPSs more now, drink more, and masturbate a tiny bit less

and I don't go to church as often

Jon Miller

	13-01-2005 22:11									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller I would say locked away for life and yes, I think that even a 12 yearold can be a irrevocably evil person I mean, how could you ever get pass that? if I did that, I wouldn't want to live JM

Indeed, nor would I. But what does not being able to get past something have to do with being "irrevocably evil"? Sure, I agree, his life is seriously and possibly irrevocably screwed up. But there's no reason to assume the worst; to the contrary, the most important thing to do is try to salvage what we can of his life.

	14-01-2005 00:20									#51
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We should learn whatever we can from these horrible incidents to better detect and intercept these situations before it's too late.

That is the primary priority..."curing" (if that's even possible) the individual who perputrated this crime comes in at a distant secondary priority.

Yes 12 year olds can be evil. As Jon Miller said, most people are that much different in their personality from 12 on.

	14-01-2005 00:57									#52
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death penalty

at 18 if it makes you bleeding hearts feel better.

	14-01-2005 01:13									#53
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Yeah, 12 yr olds can act rationally, but there are also 12 yr olds who can't. There's no magic age formula that makes someone automatically as rational as an adult.

The nature of this case indicates to me that this kid is seriously ****ed in the head and is in need of immediate, long term menta treatment. He could quite possibly spend the rest of his life institutionalized, which is fine by me.

But "irrevocable evil?" I don't even know how we could determine such a thing, particularly of a 12 yr old.

	14-01-2005 01:14									#54
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quote: But "irrevocable evil?" I don't even know how we could determine such a thing

I think beating and raping a toddler answers any questions about that.

	14-01-2005 01:16									#55
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Not necessarily. That could just mean being insane. It certainly doesn't connote the status being irrevocable.

	14-01-2005 01:17									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Not necessarily. That could just mean being insane. It certainly doesn't connote the status being irrevocable.

I suppose. But insane or not, I think this person should be put to death... at age 18. Let the psychoanalysts study him for 6 years... then stick a needle in his arm. Make him God's problem.

	14-01-2005 01:21									#57
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The nature of the DP is such that it must take into account the state of mind of the victim at the time of the crime. There's no point in waiting until someone is 18 and then killing them. If being a minor or being mentally incapable at the time a crime is committed is a prohibition to the DP, then you can't retroactively institute once the status of the person changes. The only reason I see behind what you say is that you're squeamish executing children. If you think the crime merits the DP, regardless of the age of the perp, then don't be such a ***** about it and say so.

	14-01-2005 01:23									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I suppose. But insane or not, I think this person should be put to death... at age 18. Let the psychoanalysts study him for 6 years... then stick a needle in his arm. Make him God's problem.

Other than a perverse desire to avoid the issue and make it "God's problem", is there any reason he should be put to death??

	14-01-2005 01:25									#59
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To satisfy people's bloodlust, naturally.

	14-01-2005 01:29									#60
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quote: Originally posted by civman2000 Other than a perverse desire to avoid the issue and make it "God's problem", is there any reason he should be put to death??

PUNISHMENT


and a guarantee he won't kill and rape another toddler...

Personally, I think society's resources should be spent helping the weak, the poor, the unfortunate... rather than engaging in a foolish and futile attempt at rehabilitation.

But it's not your toddler that was killed, so it's okay to be all bleeding heart and feel sorry for the killer.