14-01-2005 02:19									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov The nature of the DP is such that it must take into account the state of mind of the victim at the time of the crime.

I'd say you got your terminology mixed up a little here.

	14-01-2005 02:24									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Sava But it's not your toddler that was killed, so it's okay to be all bleeding heart and feel sorry for the killer.

And it's not your 12 year old kid.

	14-01-2005 02:25									#63
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Winston: Indeed!

	14-01-2005 02:32									#64
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quote: Kill this sick 12 year old . Then find out why he did it , and kill the person who abused him ( assuming he was abused ) .

I've changed my position on issues like this of late....I know people say human reactions are based on emotions so someone personally involved (ie the victim's family) can't make an informed judgement; but if someone raped and murdered my kid, however old they were, I would tear them apart. **** the state, vigilante style justice is sometimes the answer.

	14-01-2005 02:40									#65
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Verres: The post you cited didn't appear to be advocating vigilantism that I can see. I gathered he meant killing the kid in an official capacity.

But your post lacks logical connection: what about this case makes vigilanteism the answer? Why would that be preferable over the state handling this case? Would you feel, were you accused of a crime, that vigilanteism would be acceptable?

If vigilanteism is unacceptable in some cases, it's unacceptable in all cases. If you make exceptions, then you're destroying the very notion that punishment for crimes is the domain of society.

What happens when the vigilante mob kills an innocent by mistake? Or kills someone accused of a not-so-heinous crime?

That just seems to be a pretty poorly thoughtout position.

	14-01-2005 02:53									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Verres: The post you cited didn't appear to be advocating vigilantism that I can see. I gathered he meant killing the kid in an official capacity.

I too gathered this, then went on to develop my own, slightly different view, rather than simply repeating what had already been said. The point about capital punishment was simply a starting point.

quote: But your post lacks logical connection: what about this case makes vigilanteism the answer? Why would that be preferable over the state handling this case? Would you feel, were you accused of a crime, that vigilanteism would be acceptable?

The connection seemed logical enough to me. You may not agree with it, but I'd prefer it if you destroyed my arguments rather than attacking the way I expressed myself - I clearly do not spend enough time perfecting my debating skills to fit in here
I suspected that i would be accused of advocating vigilanteism if I said the family of the victim should be allowed to chose the killer's punishment, so I thought I would save you the trouble and say it myself.

quote: That just seems to be a pretty poorly thoughtout position.

On the contrary, I've thought about it at some length. I am well aware that vigilanteism calls into question who is ultimately responsible for law and order etc, but I do not think that is necessarily a bad thing.

	14-01-2005 04:28									#67
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This reminds me of a famous child murder case that occurred in Chicago twenty years ago. A 10 year old boy shoved an 18 month old child out of a window. The toddler died, the 10 year old was arraigned and released into the custody of his mother. Less than a week later "Yummy's" repeatedly stabbed body was found underneath a bridge. Is that what you had in mind?

While in this case the perpetrator may have been molested bear in mind that kids that age often engage in same sex experimentation regardless of their true orientation. Combine that with exposure to sex and violence, and even sexual violence via the media, then it's easy to see that even a kid who hadn't been sexually abused might perpetrate such a crime.

	14-01-2005 05:29									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Verres The connection seemed logical enough to me. You may not agree with it, but I'd prefer it if you destroyed my arguments rather than attacking the way I expressed myself

Um, I was addressing your arguments, not how you expressed yourself. The arguments were not logical.

quote: I suspected that i would be accused of advocating vigilanteism if I said the family of the victim should be allowed to chose the killer's punishment, so I thought I would save you the trouble and say it myself.

That's not the same thing as vigilanteism, though. If the state were to convict the killer and then allow the family to choose the method of punishment, while I would strongly oppose such a thing, it wouldn't be vigilanteism.

quote: On the contrary, I've thought about it at some length. I am well aware that vigilanteism calls into question who is ultimately responsible for law and order etc, but I do not think that is necessarily a bad thing.

Time devoted to thought doesn't connote it being well thought out.

Vigilanteism does far more than just "question" such a thing, though. It places the populace at the mercy of roving mobs who aren't accountable to anyone and may dispense "justice" as it sees fit. I don't see how anyone can say this is a good thing.

	14-01-2005 05:37									#69
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quote: Can you really believe that this shows he is irrevocably an evil person?? It's absurd to destroy someone's life because they had some sick, confused ideas as a kid.

12 years old is old enough to know what you are doing. You have to balance the rights of the person, with the need to protect society. Until we have a better idea as to why this 12 year old raped and killed his brother, then we shouldn't be letting him back into society.

Secondly, if the kid has some sick and confused ideas, then we are not doing him any good by releasing him. He needs to be in the care of others, not left to these same ideas again.

	14-01-2005 05:38									#70
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quote: and yes, I think that even a 12 yearold can be a irrevocably evil person

No different from any of us, in that regard.

	14-01-2005 05:42									#71
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quote: Personally, I think society's resources should be spent helping the weak, the poor, the unfortunate... rather than engaging in a foolish and futile attempt at rehabilitation. But it's not your toddler that was killed, so it's okay to be all bleeding heart and feel sorry for the killer.

You call me a bleeding heart liberal?

How do you know rehabilitation is impossible? If it is true that this 12 year old has been abused, then he falls into your category of the unfortunate who ought to be helped by society, not abandoned.

Killing one child won't bring the other one back.

	14-01-2005 05:45									#72
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@BK: I don't think anyone is saying the kid should be released. What people are arguing against are capital punishment and life sentences.

	14-01-2005 05:49									#73
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How about they release him, and if he does it again, then he's really in for some serious jailtime. Unless he can be rehabilitated or says he's terribly sorry about both murders.

Poster will not be held accountable for the above suggestion in any way

	14-01-2005 11:52									#74
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The 12 year old brain may or may not be capable of having the requisite mens rea for murder. Just because you think you remember what you were when you were 12 doesn't mean you can generalize that to everyone. Clearly statements like that indicate a lack of understanding and experience with children.

If I had more time I would post links to studies of the juvenile brain that show the lack of development in areas which are thought to control impulses. I have a slew of information and articles on the topic, but unfortunately they are at my office.

	14-01-2005 12:19									#75
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The key is we can't be absolutely sure if he is reformable or not. Dangerousness is one of the most difficult things for psychologists to predict. But when it comes to people who have already taken a life, we don't take the risk that they won't harm someone again. It doesn't matter if the kid was "messed up" or had problems, unless a person is absolutely insane to the degree that they don't know what they did was wrong, society demands that whatever your problems are that in the least you won't kill someone as a result of it. We also benefit from taking a firm line in demanding life in prison for murder to deter any premeditated actions.

If it is found that this kid was insane, then he will be sent to a mental institution for a very long time. That doesn't sound like that is the case though, so it is probably most likely he will be getting life without parole.

	14-01-2005 12:22									#76
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Or maybe the state should try to rehabilitate him before assuming that he's a permanent threat.

	14-01-2005 12:26									#77
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He is not elligible for LWOP, according to the article. 21 then out.

I doubt 12 year olds are waivable (or whatever the equivalent is) in Mass.

	14-01-2005 12:31									#78
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We'd have to check that out, I know some states (rightfully) allow juvenniles to be tried as adults in extreme cases, I know that was done with the school shootings in every state except Arkansas.

	14-01-2005 12:38									#79
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looked it up, asleepatthewheel is correct. In Massachusets you need to be 14 to be tried in adult court.

	14-01-2005 12:48									#80
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And Mass is, I think, the only state that allows Juveniles to have a jury. Who knows if you would want one in ths case, but its a very unusual option.

	14-01-2005 14:02									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove This reminds me of a famous child murder case that occurred in Chicago twenty years ago. A 10 year old boy shoved an 18 month old child out of a window. The toddler died, the 10 year old was arraigned and released into the custody of his mother. Less than a week later "Yummy's" repeatedly stabbed body was found underneath a bridge. Is that what you had in mind? While in this case the perpetrator may have been molested bear in mind that kids that age often engage in same sex experimentation regardless of their true orientation. Combine that with exposure to sex and violence, and even sexual violence via the media, then it's easy to see that even a kid who hadn't been sexually abused might perpetrate such a crime.

Well something eroded this kid's ability to sense or respect boundaries in a big way. This wasn't sexual experimentation, he used this toddler and threw him away like a condom. I'd wager that the perpetrator was either sexually molested or violently abused, and perhaps both. A kid of this age who is this sexually violent is a rarity either way, but I doubt that he was simply playing too much GTA or watching too many slasher flicks.

	14-01-2005 17:22									#82
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Where are people getting all this faith in deterence?

	14-01-2005 18:34									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi 12 years old is old enough to know what you are doing. You have to balance the rights of the person, with the need to protect society. Until we have a better idea as to why this 12 year old raped and killed his brother, then we shouldn't be letting him back into society. Secondly, if the kid has some sick and confused ideas, then we are not doing him any good by releasing him. He needs to be in the care of others, not left to these same ideas again.

I'm not saying he should be released, I'm just saying that calling for the death penalty or life in prison automatically is insane.

quote: Or maybe the state should try to rehabilitate him before assuming that he's a permanent threat.

. IMHO, everyone can be rehabilitated; no one can be irrevocably evil.

quote: We'd have to check that out, I know some states (rightfully) allow juvenniles to be tried as adults in extreme cases, I know that was done with the school shootings in every state except Arkansas.

This disgusts me. First, on principle, it disturbs me that people who are still mentally immature children can be tried as adults, and that the seriousness of the case should have anything to do with it. Sure, there are some individual cases where it may be appropriate, but I think it would be better to restrict the option in general. Secondly, I find it extremely unfair to try anyone who does not yet have the right to vote or the other rights that come with majority as an adult. If they're not mature enough to be trusted with the basic priviledges of our society, why should we demand that they have all the responsibilities that come with maturity? It's a doubles standard! If the voting age was, say, lowered to 16, I would have no problem (in most cases) with trying 16-year-olds as adults.

	14-01-2005 19:00									#84
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You are such a mob. You would lynch the boy without sufficient proof of his guilt.

The story is farfetched. The boy pleaded not guilty, which isn't something a 12 year old boy who did anything like this would do. I say wait and see, though in view of the juvenile justice system in America it is very probable the blame will be cast on the boy.

A more likely culprit is one of his older relatives, I say.

	14-01-2005 19:12									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Ljube-ljcvetko The story is farfetched. The boy pleaded not guilty, which isn't something a 12 year old boy who did anything like this would do.

This is something you know thru a long experience with 12-year-olds who perpetrate sex crimes?

	14-01-2005 19:14									#86
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No, long experience with justice system.

EDIT: And there aren't 12 years olds who perpetrate sex crimes.

	14-01-2005 19:38									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Ljube-ljcvetko No, long experience with justice system.

"I've studied the justice system, so I know how 12-year-olds think."

You're not making a good job in the convincing department.

quote: EDIT: And there aren't 12 years olds who perpetrate sex crimes.

And you just know that?

	14-01-2005 19:48									#88
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Well, I'd like to see more people like me on this boy's jury. People who would judge by evidence, not stories from the police and the prosecutor's office.

I'm afraid, looking at the kind of replies here, the boy is doomed.

I'm not declaring him innocent or guilty. I'm just saying that he being charged with a crime means nothing. There were many cases where innocent people were being charged even convicted.


This post is not a reply to your post cause I want to end the discussion based on bits of information and a shocking story told by TV or newspaper reporters.

	14-01-2005 19:52									#89
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How can you simultaneously hold that 12-year-olds don't commit sex crimes and not claim to know whether the boy is innocent?

(NB: This isn't a discussion based on bits of info from the media, but one addressing the apparent contradictions in your posts.)

	14-01-2005 19:56									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Ljube-ljcvetko EDIT: And there aren't 12 years olds who perpetrate sex crimes.

I'm stunned! This comment reminds me of the spanish judge who threw some vacationing soldiers into jail as thieves on the testimony of some children. His comment was something like "children dont lie" and he ignored the evidence that the children in question were in fact the pickpockets.