14-01-2005 23:28									#1
	2156: Pre-planning discussion and build/movement orders Put an end to popups!

I've got an informative question regarding atrocities.
Current plan is to obliterate Morgan Industries, and thus commit an atrocity.
Now I'm wondering - don't know if this has been decided yet - shall we try to use atrocities as little as possible, or much as it suits us? And if the answer is "as much as it suits us", should we start using them now already, or only after a succesful PTS Raid?

Reason I ask is, if there would be a majority for using them immediately, we could nerve staple Gythium Harbour and Fort Superiority next year already.


In case we wouldn't use atrocities, what will we do with Gythium Harbour?

It was scheduled for the crawler to be cashed in this year to hurry production.
But what should we build?
Two major options I see would be a recreation commons or a cruiser transport.

Building a recreation commons in GH would allow us to put two doctors to the field in one of the following bases: Sparta Command (size 3), Gythium Harbour (size 4), Sector Cratersouth (size 3 MY '57), Sector Craterwest (size 3 in '58). Without the rec commons we would have to appoint three doctors in a few years (while one doctor if we do build a rec commons). Where the doctors would be needed, would depend where we place our Ogres (which have the non-lethal methods special ability).

Then the crawler which will finish this year in Fort Buster could be used to hurry a cruiser transport in GH MY 2157. So we'd still get the transport, only one year later.


The second option would be to forego the rec commons for now, and build a cruiser transport already this year. Having the trannie one year earlier wouldn't make that much of a difference as far as I can see: we don't have much to transport yet. In my opinion the big difference would be that we could use the crawler, that is used to hurry the cruiser transport in the previous scenario, to hurry eg a missile marine or X missile squad. Then we could transport the missile infantry to Minas Tirith. We don't know where there are Hive forces in our neighbourhood, but who knows having one unit a couple turns earlier in Minas Tirith could mean the difference between survival or destruction of that base.

So to summarize the above (as far as I can see it), what's more important? Having two extra workers on the field, or having an extra unit in Minas Tirith a couple turns earlier.


Talking about Minas Tirith's defense, should we upgrade the commando hoplite there to an impact infantry (or even X impact infantry?)? Or wait with such measures until we actually see any Hive troops?


There will be seven formers that require new orders this year. Two of them (those near Messena) are more or less already planned: build a farm S of Messena. But what with the others? There are two near Vladivostok, and three near the Laconian valley.

Options could include:

• build mines and forests here and there, so crawlers have a good tile to harvest
  
• building a borehole
  
• build some sensor arrays around where they currently are
  
• move south to build a road to Minas Tirith, and build some sensors there.

	15-01-2005 00:01									#2
	Re: 2156: Pre-planning discussion and build/movement orders Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Maniac I've got an informative question regarding atrocities. Current plan is to obliterate Morgan Industries, and thus commit an atrocity. Now I'm wondering - don't know if this has been decided yet - shall we try to use atrocities as little as possible, or much as it suits us? And if the answer is "as much as it suits us", should we start using them now already, or only after a succesful PTS Raid?

I'd wait with atrocities until we raid Morgan. This way we can look nice to everyone until that very turn. If we Nerve Staple, and use other things, we'll get into a diplomatic hole pretty quickly IMO. Also, this could warn Morgan, earlier than planned. For now, we can use our integrity, and I think we should.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac In case we wouldn't use atrocities, what will we do with Gythium Harbour?

Bring the defender to Minas Tirith earlier. I hate to say this, because I like building things, but we really don't know what Yang can come up with. At least some preparations need to be made ASAP.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Talking about Minas Tirith's defense, should we upgrade the commando hoplite there to an impact infantry (or even X impact infantry?)? Or wait with such measures until we actually see any Hive troops?

Can Yang come out of the blue (i.e. attack without being seen the turn before)? If not, we can wait until we see his units.

Formers: if we can bring 3 or more together in a turn or two, then a Borehole would be the way to go. Otherwise, and for other Formers - plant Forest.

	15-01-2005 01:01									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I just want to say, if we're going to start using nerve gas fairly frequently, then we're going to have to deal with some fairly serious mind worms. Every gas attack reduces your clean mineral count by 5 (ditto for base obliterations.) Now, I think this will be great as far as ECs go, but we need to make sure that we get enough units in place beforehand.

And I agree, wait until after the Morgan attack to nerve staple.

	15-01-2005 19:33									#4
	Re: 2156: Pre-planning discussion and build/movement orders Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Maniac I've got an informative question regarding atrocities. Current plan is to obliterate Morgan Industries, and thus commit an atrocity.

And obliterating a just-captured base ranks as more serious an atrocity than obliterating one's own base

quote: Now I'm wondering - don't know if this has been decided yet - shall we try to use atrocities as little as possible, or much as it suits us? And if the answer is "as much as it suits us", should we start using them now already, or only after a succesful PTS Raid?

I'd say use them as little as possible. Our reputation will certainly take a hit, but we can always argue "it was for the good of the game to remove Morgan's winning edge". We lose ten turns of fairly lucrative commerce income. Nerve stapling will solve a short term problem but will extend sanctions in blocks of ten year periods. If we believe that commerce is unimportant to us, and are prepared to run out the game with none, then nerve stapling, X-waepons and, ultimately PB's are therefore in play

quote: Reason I ask is, if there would be a majority for using them immediately, we could nerve staple Gythium Harbour and Fort Superiority next year already. In case we wouldn't use atrocities, what will we do with Gythium Harbour? It was scheduled for the crawler to be cashed in this year to hurry production. But what should we build? Two major options I see would be a recreation commons or a cruiser transport. Building a recreation commons in GH would allow us to put two doctors to the field in one of the following bases: Sparta Command (size 3), Gythium Harbour (size 4), Sector Cratersouth (size 3 MY '57), Sector Craterwest (size 3 in '58). Without the rec commons we would have to appoint three doctors in a few years (while one doctor if we do build a rec commons). Where the doctors would be needed, would depend where we place our Ogres (which have the non-lethal methods special ability).

I'd go for the rec commons at GH. (Another option would be to change to POLICE - lose our fundy probe bonus but as Maniac pointed out elsewhere, with Polysoft we have a better probe rating now anyway. Although POLICE would be more effective after we get Int Int and can equip some garrisons with non-lethal attributes)

quote: Then the crawler which will finish this year in Fort Buster could be used to hurry a cruiser transport in GH MY 2157. So we'd still get the transport, only one year later. The second option would be to forego the rec commons for now, and build a cruiser transport already this year. Having the trannie one year earlier wouldn't make that much of a difference as far as I can see: we don't have much to transport yet. In my opinion the big difference would be that we could use the crawler, that is used to hurry the cruiser transport in the previous scenario, to hurry eg a missile marine or X missile squad. Then we could transport the missile infantry to Minas Tirith. We don't know where there are Hive forces in our neighbourhood, but who knows having one unit a couple turns earlier in Minas Tirith could mean the difference between survival or destruction of that base.

That's what I think we should do (hurry a missile marine - after getting SFF from Lal) - and hope, as well, that the Hermes impending podpop gets us a completed Skanky (or are we planning to change production to a supercrawler beforehand?)

quote: So to summarize the above (as far as I can see it), what's more important? Having two extra workers on the field, or having an extra unit in Minas Tirith a couple turns earlier.

The latter

quote: Talking about Minas Tirith's defense, should we upgrade the commando hoplite there to an impact infantry (or even X impact infantry?)? Or wait with such measures until we actually see any Hive troops?

I'd wait.

I'd like to know what's fdfamaging his defenders in the 3 bases on "our" territory. Native wildlife? Or Gaians?

quote: There will be seven formers that require new orders this year. Two of them (those near Messena) are more or less already planned: build a farm S of Messena. But what with the others? There are two near Vladivostok, and three near the Laconian valley. Options could include: build mines and forests here and there, so crawlers have a good tile to harvest building a borehole build some sensor arrays around where they currently are move south to build a road to Minas Tirith, and build some sensors there. Any preference?

Sensors. That defensive bonus will tide us over until we get perims

And boreholes with what's left (see how productive Fort Superiority - our impending HQ of our Air Force - is with 2 being worked. It's an instabuild base.

	15-01-2005 20:01									#5
	Re: Re: 2156: Pre-planning discussion and build/movement orders Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Googlie I'd like to know what's fdfamaging his defenders in the 3 bases on "our" territory. Native wildlife? Or Gaians?

Or his police rating, and needs. Economy set to Planned + Police State gives Yang 3 units as police. It is by far the best choice for the Hive, so even the AI might realize that.

	16-01-2005 20:27									#6
	Re: Re: 2156: Pre-planning discussion and build/movement orders Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Googlie Sensors. That defensive bonus will tide us over until we get perims And boreholes with what's left (see how productive Fort Superiority - our impending HQ of our Air Force - is with 2 being worked. It's an instabuild base.

Sensors eh, do you really think so? Who are we defending against? We could use a sensor at Minas Tirith I guess, where the Hive will be pounding at us, but other than that, why not build some mines or forest so that our crawlers have something to crawl.

	16-01-2005 21:46									#7
	Re: Re: 2156: Pre-planning discussion and build/movement orders Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Perhaps only way of getting involved is starting to share thoughts.. so there:

quote: Originally posted by Googlie That's what I think we should do (hurry a missile marine - after getting SFF from Lal) - and hope, as well, that the Hermes impending podpop gets us a completed Skanky (or are we planning to change production to a supercrawler beforehand?)

Trying never hurts (we can revert at no cost if podpop does not complete production as we hoped)

Either supercrawler (can be used for defense as good as Skanky's Sileni - for few turns at least) or an expensive multi-purpose military unit if we need reinforcements somewhere (4~-3-2, 4x-3-2, 4-3tr-2, or synthmetal variants if we are leaving plasma unprototyped)

	17-01-2005 02:23									#8
	2156: Pre-planning discussion and build/movement orders Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Welcome to Sparta, sentry33. I'm resisting the urge to write some cryptic messages in Polish here.

quote: Originally posted by sentry33 Trying never hurts (we can revert at no cost if podpop does not complete production as we hoped)

Good idea.

	17-01-2005 04:11									#9
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Yes I agree with sentry33 and modo, try for a supercrawler first, that'll be of more value than a military unit I would think.

	17-01-2005 19:37									#10
	Re: Re: 2156: Pre-planning discussion and build/movement orders Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Can Yang come out of the blue (i.e. attack without being seen the turn before)? If not, we can wait until we see his units.

Depends from which direction he attacks I guess. There is a straight line of fungus spanning from Hive territory all the way to Minas Tirith. That might be risky of course.

quote: Originally posted by Zeiter I just want to say, if we're going to start using nerve gas fairly frequently, then we're going to have to deal with some fairly serious mind worms. Every gas attack reduces your clean mineral count by 5 (ditto for base obliterations.)

Are you sure? AFAIK it's only planet busters that reduce your clean minerals by five. All other atrocities are safe IIRC. Well, relatively safe. I've heard stories of people using nerve gas all the time, and when they reached 1000 years of sanction or so, Planet suddenly went berzerk on them.

In a game of mine I once used nerve gas regularly to exterminate my Usurper and Caretaker neighbours, and after a while I always got a sea level raise from just one fungal pop, even though I hadn't had (m)any pops in the years before. My # of clean minerals weren't reduced though because of the nerve gas use.

Unfortunately I'm unsure if it's that (no clean mineral reduction, but an instant sea level raise) what people talk about about Planet going berzerk because of nerve gas, or if nerve gas effectively caused their eco-damage to go through the roof.

quote: Originally posted by Googlie I'd wait. [with hurrying a MT hoplite to an impact infantry]

Sounds good. Would it be ok though to keep 60 or 70 credits in reserve at all times, so we can do an emergency upgrade?


Btw, I realized yesterday, while testplaying a 2156 and 2157 turn that I made a stupid mistake. I assumed that we had to make a choice between hurrying a rec commons and a cruiser transport, or in a second option hurrying a cruiser transport and a missile marine.

But we'll only get SFF MY 2158 at the earliest, which means we have three years of production. So if we wanted to, we could:
MY 2156: set production to a rec commons, and hurry it with some 60 credits.
MY 2157: set production to a transport cruiser. Cash in the first crawler from FB. Hurry a bit more with credits if necessary.
MY 2158: we'll hopefully have SFF now => set production to a missile marine and hurry it with the second FB crawler.

Then we can transport a missile marine to MT MY 2159. Or if no Hive troops are in range, first let it pay a visit to a monolith for an upgrade to elite.

	19-01-2005 03:31									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

I'm pretty sure that extensive use of nerve gas agitates the mind worms. I had a game where I used about 30 gas attacks in the span of 3 turns, and my ecodamage shot up above 200 in all of my bases.

	19-01-2005 18:53									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter I'm pretty sure that extensive use of nerve gas agitates the mind worms. I had a game where I used about 30 gas attacks in the span of 3 turns, and my ecodamage shot up above 200 in all of my bases.

Ouch, that must have hurt!


Some further suggestions:


In Fort Superiority there are currently two doctors appointed to turn one b-drone into a content worker. Therefore I was wondering, how about turning one worker into a technician? As specialists don't need drone control, both doctors could also be turned into technicians. As for production for this year, how about a colony pod? That will reduce FS nutrient shortages, and we could found a base at the same time of capturing the PTS = two free workers!


Worker, support and garrison relocations in case a rec commons is built in GH:

SC2: 1-2-1 river forest worker to new 3-1-0 farm
GH: doctor to the river forest

Shrek moves from GH to SC4.

SC4 scout patrol moves to SC2.

OA hoplite moves to SC1 and rehomes. SC1 hoplite moves in opposite direction.

Hurry rec commons with 60 credits.

	19-01-2005 19:43									#13
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Definately make Colony Pod(s) in Fort Superiority, if we can't use enough police units.

	19-01-2005 23:53									#14
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The turn is up! The turn is up!
Did the Morgans beef up their defenses?
I'll be at home tonight, anybody up for a turnchat?

	20-01-2005 06:08									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen Did the Morgans beef up their defenses? I'll be at home tonight, anybody up for a turnchat?

They are prototyping a plasma armored foil at MM - and their ship commissioend there is now out and about :

	20-01-2005 06:09									#16
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Hmm - it's almost as though they know that our plan is to attack MI thru MM - they've beefed up defenses there and put 2 crawlers between MM and MI

	20-01-2005 06:13									#17
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But they are still pretty serene in their belief that all's well with the world:

Attachment: 2156 - morganbuilds.jpg
This has been downloaded 26 time(s).

	20-01-2005 12:15									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

We can still pull off a PTS raid with a rover to spare, as I see it. We don't even need to go through that supercrawler anymore. They might use the crawler they have there to rush the plasma foil though, and then upgrade their defenses, which would make things tougher.

	20-01-2005 13:59									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie They are prototyping a plasma armored foil at MM

Well, this one will be too late, as we know.

	20-01-2005 18:47									#20
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Hey wait, how did they get HEC?

	20-01-2005 19:10									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Hey wait, how did they get HEC?

They either stole it, or bought it (Zak, and Lal being the respective targets). I think Googlie said that already.

	20-01-2005 19:11									#22
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Yep I first read this thread, and then the one where Googlie posted the answer.

Anyway, I'll now go play a first portion of the turn.

	20-01-2005 19:18									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Hey wait, how did they get HEC?

they bought it from Lal (his reserves this turn are 357 and he ended last turn with 234)

Our probe at Climatic Research would fend off any Morgan probes there

	20-01-2005 19:21									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Anyway, I'll now go play a first portion of the turn.

I can't help but notice that most of us are online, and posting. I wouldn't mind taking a break from my thesis work, anybody up for a turnchat? I'll be in the command center.

	20-01-2005 19:22									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie they bought it from Lal (his reserves this turn are 357 and he ended last turn with 234)

Thanks for the info!
Hmm, I wonder whether it'll soon become profitable to ask for a new loan from Lal.

quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen I can't help but notice that most of us are online, and posting. I wouldn't mind taking a break from my thesis work, anybody up for a turnchat? I'll be in the command center.

Ah, problem is I can't access the command center on this public university computer, and neither can I on my laptop where I'd have to play the SMAC turn. I can only access the command center in the weekends on the computer at home. (tomorrow Friday in the late afternoon, just before the deadline passes, would be the only possibility for me for this turn)

Though of course, if Googlie is available, perhaps he can play the turn instead and hold a turnchat with you guys?

	20-01-2005 19:34									#26
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Naw - I have to leave in about ten minutes (plus I opened but didn't save the turn a couple of times, and thus we'd have reload messages)

	20-01-2005 21:44									#27
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Here's the turn with most stuff played. I can finish up tomorrow afternoon, which is shortly before the deadline. Though of course, if someone else could play before then, be my guest!

Attachment: acdg3-sparta-2156mid.zip
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	21-01-2005 03:58									#28
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I would like to suggest one thing: if we encounter the Morganite laser foil in the open ocean, I think it would be better to go around it, if such a maneuver can be accomplished safely, instead of just destroying it. We don't want to give them any warning, do we? Then, on the turn where we launch our attack against Morgan, we can also eliminate the laser foil.

In fact, I'm guessing that the entire reason for the Morganites suddenly building the ships that they are is that they are expecting their ships to give them any early warning as to landing parties. Thus, they think that they don't have to worry too much about beefing up their land defenses.

	21-01-2005 04:21									#29
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Here's the turn with most stuff played. I can finish up tomorrow afternoon, which is shortly before the deadline. Though of course, if someone else could play before then, be my guest!

Not me - I still get the reload message even when loading Maniac's save

quote: Morgan made us a "treaty and 8c" offer. Simply ignore it, or even press "decline" to make the message clearer?

I like the idea of pressing "decline offer" - that will let them know that we are serious about getting the full indebtedness paid in one go - they are actually buying techs from Lal with money "borrowed" from us.

quote: My jaw fell on the ground. Put Twonuts Strand production to a 0-2t-2 crawler as suggested, popped the unity pod with Hermes, and yes indeed, we got another materials pod. CDF, here we come!

quote: Hermes moved two east next to the second unity pod. It only has 2 MPs left, meaning it couldn't flee if we encountered an IoD. Therefore I'd suggest to to wait until next year.

- wait till next turn - we can always put something fresh into 2NT's production in case we get another completions goody - plus, as you say, it can scuttle off if it pings an IoD

quote: Mission Year 2156 has had a sunny summer: forest growth near AG (twice), AU, FS & GH. Kelp growth near Vladivostok.

quote: How about moving the two formers near Vladivostok a tile south to start mining there? What to do with the three formers near the Eurotas?

How about 3 sensors in those yellow tiles (cover 9 bases with these 3) (see map below)

quote: Now that we know that the worm will, when attacking the stack of our supercrawler and the former, attack the former and destroy the crawler as collateral damage, how about moving our supercrawler one tile north and harvest there?

I'm OK with that - even move that rover the remaining 1/3rd if it can right up to the worm - the worm would prolly attack that rather than the armored crawler or former and the rover can withdraw, letting us get the crawler into the base safely

Do we want to move one of the probes at MT down towards yangland for any reason?

	21-01-2005 16:03									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie How about 3 sensors in those yellow tiles (cover 9 bases with these 3) (see map below)

Looks good.

One minor suggestion for the sensor east of Gythium Harbour. How about moving that dot one tile to the northwest?
Reason: building a sensor on a tile makes it impossible to build certain other terraformations such as solar collectors, condensers, boreholes... You can build a sensor without a problem on a forest square though, so that would be better IMHO than building a sensor on a yet unterraformed tile (which we might want to give another terraformation than a forest).

For the sensor between VV and OA, would you want to use both formers to finish the sensor asap? Or is there no hurry, and could one former build a sensor, while the other moves south to build a road, allowing a few turns down the road the sensor-building former to move to the roaded square without wasting a movement point?