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Crashlander
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Hey what´s up...
well i´m looking for a PBEM game, since i never played civ this way... i´m up for any kind of game you wish, send me a message!
cya
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snoopy369
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Of the Peanuts Gallery
Apr 2004
time: 23:30
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I suggest start of ind., or middle of ind. age, assuming you want tech to still be somewhat relevant - that ensures you have plenty of game left before tech becomes irrelevant, but you start out with plenty of military capabilities.
You might start out having researched Nationalism or (even more interesting) Replaceable Parts. That means you've gotten to the point where Cavalry aren't superdominant any more ... 
I'll happily make a map for you if you want, I have some experience making a map and scenario like this (my Naval PBEM). I would leave to you the details, but I suggest having prebuilt cities - late starts without cities leave a long time where you're doing nothing, but it's a lesser form of nothing because everything takes so long to build ...
In fact I suggest having a single AI civ with no unit building abilities (perhaps except an immobile defensive unit) owning several developed cities dotting the landscape. That makes military excursions more interesting at the beginning, and eliminates some of the problems I had in Naval PBEM, where we started out with some well developed cities and some empty islands, but now we have cities that are vital and cities that are less useful because it takes too long to bulid them up ... and one player lost one of his core cities early on, and that crippled him pretty much, as that was one less well developped city to research with and get cash with...
But I'm willing to make it however you ask
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Kloreep
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of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:30
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Thanks for offering to set up, Snoopy. Sounds great. 
quote:
Originally posted by snoopy369
I suggest start of ind., or middle of ind. age, assuming you want tech to still be somewhat relevant - that ensures you have plenty of game left before tech becomes irrelevant, but you start out with plenty of military capabilities.
You might start out having researched Nationalism or (even more interesting) Replaceable Parts. That means you've gotten to the point where Cavalry aren't superdominant any more ... |
Yeah, the start of the industrial age sounds good. Science would take quite a hit otherwise.
And let's not start with replacable parts, so that Industrious has a little time to shine. Let's just go with the beginning instead: Everything in the first two ages researched.
Also, starting with Nationalism means no cheap defense units. It would be tough to get even one out the door. (See my response on prebuilt cities below.) This might not be so big an issue, though; effective attack units are going to be tough to build too. If we turned barbs off, that would be okay.
This would make cavalry "dominant," but consider: you have to hook up horses and saltpeter. You have to build expensive as heck 80-shield units. And then you've invested in offense, and either need to leave some of it at home or send some of it out to fight.
Perhaps it would be good if none of us started with both horses and saltpeter right by the capital, but otherwise I'm thinking it'll be okay.
BTW, would scientific civs automatically get one of the ind techs at the start of the game, or would they need to be assigned one? I guess you can be the one to check that out as mapmaker.  
quote:
Originally posted by snoopy369
I'll happily make a map for you if you want, I have some experience making a map and scenario like this (my Naval PBEM). I would leave to you the details, but I suggest having prebuilt cities - late starts without cities leave a long time where you're doing nothing, but it's a lesser form of nothing because everything takes so long to build ... |
I was actually thinking specifically of starting without anything prebuilt. Just your settler and worker (and scout if you're expansionist). I guess we could turn on Mass Regicide for some early exploration/combat units.
I've never tried building up my civ under the conditions of having all that ancient & mideval tech at my fingertips, and I'm interested in what it would be like. Rail would probably come before you'd be anywhere near ready for it, and suddenly you choose between improving other tiles, and building rails on existing improvements.
I don't think it will be boring - no more so than a standard game beginning. Only thing I'm worried about is it may create some no-brainers - IE, revolt at the beginning of the game if you're Religious (which may be a popular option).
quote:
Originally posted by snoopy369
In fact I suggest having a single AI civ with no unit building abilities (perhaps except an immobile defensive unit) owning several developed cities dotting the landscape. That makes military excursions more interesting at the beginning, and eliminates some of the problems I had in Naval PBEM, where we started out with some well developed cities and some empty islands, but now we have cities that are vital and cities that are less useful because it takes too long to bulid them up ... and one player lost one of his core cities early on, and that crippled him pretty much, as that was one less well developped city to research with and get cash with... |
If we don't get a lot of players, having AIs would be interesting. Not sure what to do with them, though having mini-empires ready to take would be interesting.
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snoopy369
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Of the Peanuts Gallery
Apr 2004
time: 23:30
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Hmm, well then if i'm not making an actual map i'll join 6 players it is. (Unless i'm counted as part of the 5?)
I don't see why agr. civs are any more powerful than they are in any other game ... quick govt change or not But it's all up to you.
Sci civs definitely should get Steam Power, that's easy to manage.
I'll try playing a SP version of the mod tonight and see how it goes ...
Also, do you want ALL techs from previous eras, or only mandatory ones? IE, Democracy and things like that? And what about former wonders?
One suggestion I have: make the old wonders in the pseudo-AI civ. Single civ, perhaps with cities randomly (or semirandomly!) placed around the globe, with the previous wonders in them (one wonder per city), and only the ability to make 0/6/0 units (essentially immobile riflemen). Obviously some of the wonders would be worthless (any of them that expire!) and they'd lose their cultural value, unless we checked "retain culture on capture", but some of them (ie, pyramids, sun tzu, etc.) would be pretty sweet.
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Kloreep
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of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:30
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I wasn't counting you, no. Welcome aboard; now we are six. 
As for tech... hmm. It would be interesting to not do non-required techs, as that would make Feudalism the only government available at the start of the game. That sounds good to me. (And makes Rel all the more desirable...)
As for wonders: As you say, some retain their power, some do not. That'll change which get built, but that's okay. It also boosts scientific a little; not many advances will be made at first, but they have a better chance at an SGL for one of the powerful wonders for those techs they do get to first.
Also, I'm thinking no AI civ at this point. We could have at max 2, and while we could have one uber-AI in Communism, I think let's just have a more standard game.
As for Agr power: It depends. An Agr civ that starts along a long river and can get fresh water to most of their cities is probably about as powerful as they would be with a govt. change at the start of the game. However, the ability to do that govt. change makes Agr a sure bet for the early game; you don't have to worry about starting in dry lands. The Celts would be THE civ, IMO.
Also, I'm thinking no Mass Regicide. This keeps expansionist more desirable, and I believe warriors will still be buildable since Guerillas won't be available, so we'll be fine for explorers and simple garrisons.
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Crashlander
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damn, i don´t have the conquests expansion.... so i´m out of this game folks... :P
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snoopy369
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Of the Peanuts Gallery
Apr 2004
time: 23:30
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Also, a few things:
- Do we start in Despotism or Feudalism? The former gives Religious civs an advantage, but most games with advanced starts start in more advanced eras, as well. I'd vote Feudalism, as religious civs still get a bonus in that they can switch to the superior Republic, Democracy, or Communism quickly - and they build culture fast anyhow, which in this game will be important.
- Do we start with any units more than settler and worker? I'd again prefer at least a somewhat faster start - 3 settlers and 3 workers and 3 warriors, say... could make up for that by having raging hordes of barbarians, who of course have advanced barbarian units ...
- Tech rate: Do we want to speed up the tech rate? If not, we'll have a horridly slow research rate for a very long time ... I'd worry about the game stagnating if people don't see much action techwise in the first few hundred turns (I could easily see it taking at least that long before we have significantly below 50 turn techs). Alternatively we could lower the "max turns" to 25 or something, to allow us to still have a slow tech rate later on but a faster tech rate to start (still slow by normal standards but decent at least).
I'm going to test it with some-but-not-all of the settings - specifically, with AP on and 3-3-3 units, but none of the rest fiddled with. I suspect with AP on we don't need to fiddle with the tech rate, and I'm either way on the gov't thing (it doesn't really affect my testing anyhow), but we should answer these questions before we proceed
Last edited by snoopy369 on 19-01-2005 at 11:18
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snoopy369
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Of the Peanuts Gallery
Apr 2004
time: 23:30
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Played with it a bit.
Seems Sci. civs get something random no matter what I do. If I give them nothing in the 3rd era, then they get a 3rd era tech (2/2 anyway on tries). If I give them something - ie steam power - they get a random non-3rd era tech. (I got Printing Press, Zulu got Chivalry, though that may have been from a hut pop?)
Barbs on Raging is brutal - well, only warriors, is the saving grace, while you get swordsmen - who knows why, since you don't have iron to start with, and you do have feudalism which is the sword upgrade, but if I assign warriors to you, they come out as swordsmen. (I didn't think warriors upgrade to swordsmen, either, but who knows They do upgrade to MI i think, however.) Anyhow, it definitely messes with the Builder mentality I was going for - and pretty much HAD to go for, given the start I played the furthest tonight started my capital with 4 wheat (on a river/oasis type situation, with a lot of floodplain wheat), meaning it is a 2 (!) turn Settler pump (7 food/turn), with AP turned on. (Would be 4 turns otherwise, of course.) I just couldn't resist going builder ...
Otherwise it works out fine as far as I can tell. Even playing builder with 2 6-size cities from close to the start (2 more wheat on floodplains 3 squares and 5 squares south-southeast!) and tons of cities built rapidly, it was still 50 turn pace to electricity. And I even traded for 3 AI workers ... (which is probably considered cheating, but I wasn't playing to win )
I'll play some more later in the week while we finalize what options to use and what players are playing, try to mess with things to see how they affect it.
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UnOrthOdOx
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Hello....
Jun 2002
time: 22:30
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quote:
Originally posted by snoopy369
That would be pretty ludicrous ... especially with riflemen available pretty early on I'd be fine with immortals against me  |
You just try making Rifles with that size 3 city while a stack of 10 immortals, upgraded from warriors since we're min researching at 50 turns anyway, is comming.
quote:
I'd vote Feudalism, as religious civs still get a bonus in that they can switch to the superior Republic, Democracy, or Communism quickly |
Depends on your strat there...Even after 50 turning Republic, I don't think you'ld be in a position yet to make the change worthwhile.
Personally, of course I'ld love starting in Feudalism.
On tech:
I don't think we'ld need to speed tech advance. Hell, we have SO much **** to build right off the bat, I don't think it'll be a problem going 50 turns.
Start, though...
I wouldn't mind seeing 2-3 settlers and workers, though. Just to speed up what is typically 30+ turns with little to do. I don't care either way in the end.
Last edited by UnOrthOdOx on 19-01-2005 at 20:35
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Kloreep
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of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:30
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I don't think we'd need to speed up tech. As UnO says, there is plenty to do. It may be frustrating at first to be so close to Replacable Parts and yet so far, but hey, that's why you may want to choose Industrious as a trait.
I prefer not to do AP. It won't be any slower than a normal game without it, and AP changes the game rather than doubling its speed. (Do units move twice as fast? Do workers work twice as fast? Do borders expand twice as fast? Do you get double the free maintenance?)
I'd be okay with extra settlers and workers (though also with not; I'm with UnO and abstain courteously). But if we do that, can we please turn on Mass Regicide so I can see where I'm going? Mass Reg would take care of the starting-with-swords problem too.
As for Scientific civs: I think the way to go is give them Steam Power and let them get one of the previous era techs. After all, they are going to have missed their free MA tech otherwise.
Despotism vs Feudalism: Hmm, tough. But Rel seems like a no brainer, so I don't think we should start in Despotism.
How about Feudalism, but let each player decide to start in Despotism instead if they wish. (I don't know why they would, but there is the strict maintenance penalty and the war weariness.)
Edit: Also, what do you guys think of the constructed civ? Take any leaderhead & its UU, choose two non-Ag traits.
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snoopy369
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Of the Peanuts Gallery
Apr 2004
time: 23:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Kloreep
I don't think we'd need to speed up tech. As UnO says, there is plenty to do. It may be frustrating at first to be so close to Replacable Parts and yet so far, but hey, that's why you may want to choose Industrious as a trait.
I prefer not to do AP. It won't be any slower than a normal game without it, and AP changes the game rather than doubling its speed. (Do units move twice as fast? Do workers work twice as fast? Do borders expand twice as fast? Do you get double the free maintenance?)
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AP specifically changes the game in one way: It allows you to build more units and grow your cities faster - essentially doubling shield and food production (and possibly lightbulb production, i'm not sure?) So you're right - it does change the game: to allow faster building of units and buildup of cities. Of course other strategies change - that's part of the fun!
The main reason I like it is that it will allow us to build up decent sized cities quickly, rather than taking nearly as long. An AP game takes less than half the turns of a normal speed game to get into the 'productive' time ... which in a game like this is important, in my opinion. Non-AP will drag ... and the strategy will be hurt imho in terms of science - it's obvious that you want to do 50 turn techs until you can do less than that, and 10% science (or even 100% and one scientist once you can afford it), and that to me hurts strategic options whereas AP would much more quickly allow for higher tech rates ...
quote:
I'd be okay with extra settlers and workers (though also with not; I'm with UnO and abstain courteously). But if we do that, can we please turn on Mass Regicide so I can see where I'm going? Mass Reg would take care of the starting-with-swords problem too.
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I strongly dislike mass regicide. As with your opinion on AP, I think MR drastically (even more so!) affects the strategy. Why not just reveal the map? My ability or lack thereof to see the map affects my strategy in a huge way. (Perhaps we just have different ways that we like to speed things up? )
quote:
As for Scientific civs: I think the way to go is give them Steam Power and let them get one of the previous era techs. After all, they are going to have missed their free MA tech otherwise.
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I'm not 100% sure you don't get a chance at a second IA tech. I've only tested once with giving steam power ... and a free tech of steam power is a HUGE tech to give, after all, if we're not doing AP and therefore have 50 turn techs for a looong time.
quote:
Despotism vs Feudalism: Hmm, tough. But Rel seems like a no brainer, so I don't think we should start in Despotism.
How about Feudalism, but let each player decide to start in Despotism instead if they wish. (I don't know why they would, but there is the strict maintenance penalty and the war weariness.)
Edit: Also, what do you guys think of the constructed civ? Take any leaderhead & its UU, choose two non-Ag traits. |
Feudalism sounds good given UnO's response. Constructed sounds fine, but you should post it here with the known fact that if we think it's abusive we'll say no. (I can't think of any that would be abusive - but i'm not willing to say there aren't any.)
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Kloreep
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of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:30
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Well, okay... I'll be dragged kicking and screaming to AP unless someone else objects.
On Scientific: I guess it needs more testing. Assuming a second IA tech isn't possible, I still think they should get Steam Power.
I'd rather not allow for a random IA tech unless absolutely necessary, because IMO, getting Nationalism at the start of the game is as much a liability as a benefit. You have to either go for extremely expensive defensive units, or use offensive units that aren't in the defensive upgrade path.
As for abusive: With Agricultural out, I don't think there are any particular abusive trait combinations. And without made-up UUs, I don't see anything being abusive.
One issue, though, is whether the same UU can be used more than once. If you take Germany, can anyone else have the Panzer? What if more than one person wants the F-15 or Siphai?
If we allow everyone to go for the Panzer, I'm thinking that's what everyone will do... it's the best UU in this game with the tech advanced.
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16-01-2005 04:51
Lots of potentially easy victories via UU.
So Ind-Ag isn't possible.
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