17-01-2005 01:59									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear ...

I disagree with the world's tendancy to demonize Hitler and make him out to be some kind of monster.

He's not a monster, he's a human being just like the rest of us. Aside from the halocaust, what has he done that is so evil?

	17-01-2005 02:14									#32
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You have to think though.. How did this guy have all this time to think about all these things. Invade this invade that. Destroy this and that. Kidnap the pope. I mean, that's not an easy job. Did it, at any point, occur to him, that maybe these plans are ... unrealistic? A bit megalomaniac? I mean, some people should realize they are only human and there's only so much they can accomplish, be it good or bad.

Furthermore, controlling the whole world through direct power, visible and enforcing everyone else, you know that's just not very realistic. And even through subtle strategies, it would seem impossible. All superpowers have fallen and they will fall. That's just the way it is and everythign else is disillusioned thinking, maybe even mentally sick thinking. It just isn't possible. And in case of Hitler, the population of the humans is ever increasing and at the point he was trying it, at least his precedors had LESS people to control. So if it was impossible back then, it's even more impossible every single day we go further.

So. I have to conclude that everyone who thinks they can rule the world 100%, must be crazy. Be that person good or bad, his intentions good or bad, he is working for the evil because it will not work and at the end it brings more destruction than good. So each to their own, and let everyone rule their own areas as they see fit, unless it is Hitler like murdereous ways, and we all be better off.

I mean what kind of a jackass you have to be to think you will succeed at the end? Killing all people in here and there, doing this and that? Stupid people makes my head hurt. And if it's something that some people claim is possible, well, look at the history. It has never ever worked. Stupid people should die in pain.

	17-01-2005 02:17									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka You have to think though.. How did this guy have all this time to think about all these things. Invade this invade that. Destroy this and that. Kidnap the pope. I mean, that's not an easy job. Did it, at any point, occur to him, that maybe these plans are ... unrealistic? A bit megalomaniac? I mean, some people should realize they are only human and there's only so much they can accomplish, be it good or bad. Furthermore, controlling the whole world through direct power, visible and enforcing everyone else, you know that's just not very realistic. And even through subtle strategies, it would seem impossible. All superpowers have fallen and they will fall. That's just the way it is and everythign else is disillusioned thinking, maybe even mentally sick thinking. It just isn't possible. And in case of Hitler, the population of the humans is ever increasing and at the point he was trying it, at least his precedors had LESS people to control. So if it was impossible back then, it's even more impossible every single day we go further. So. I have to conclude that everyone who thinks they can rule the world 100%, must be crazy. Be that person good or bad, his intentions good or bad, he is working for the evil because it will not work and at the end it brings more destruction than good. So each to their own, and let everyone rule their own areas as they see fit, unless it is Hitler like murdereous ways, and we all be better off. I mean what kind of a jackass you have to be to think you will succeed at the end? Killing all people in here and there, doing this and that? Stupid people makes my head hurt. And if it's something that some people claim is possible, well, look at the history. It has never ever worked. Stupid people should die in pain.

and the fact the german population was so low they could not expect to hold larger nations. As the war dragged on they would have had problems creating a younger generation with so many soldiers abroad.

Attacking Russia
declaring war on the U.S. (though the U.S. would have declared war on germany anyways)

	17-01-2005 02:19									#34
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hmm, let's see - start ww2 in which 50 million died not bad enough for ya?

	17-01-2005 02:26									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse hmm, let's see - start ww2 in which 50 million died not bad enough for ya?

yeah he started offensive wars, but so did Bush. And Bush is considered a decent enough guy. Bad president, but no one seems to question his morals.

	17-01-2005 02:27									#36
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Except about 80% of the world's population

	17-01-2005 02:34									#37
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Pius XII is a much misunderstood figure. He saved many thousands of Jews during WWII and was thanked by the World Jewish Congress and Israel for his efforts.

In fact Jewish religious authorities worked closely with the Pope during the war in a desperate effort to save Jews. It is one of the strangest, most tragic and most interesting stories of the war.

But many lives were saved.

	17-01-2005 02:36									#38
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Yeah of course all those things made him a nutter. Hitler wasn't known for his strategic genious but more of his murderous and mad ways.

I do however argue, that taking out SU was necessary for Hitler and his point of view. He just made all kinds of mistakes during it. But I argue if he could have had more brains, experience and actual strategic talents, he could have taken out SU, at least to a point where that would have been settled, maybe not all of SU but enough of SU. He knew he wanted to avoid war with the US. It wasn't in his interest. Had he been able to avoid war with US, been able to start the invasion of SU more optimally, who knows, he could have been able to control the whole europe and much of SU, giving him all kinds of new resources and possibly making it more of a stale mate. But it's one of those ifs and buts. But I'm willing to say that Hitler did know what was in his best interest for his murderous plans, even though he wasn't a genious at all. But he failed. His project got too big for his caliber of a man. He couldn't handle it. Too many factors in it he could have not control or guess. And that's why it is impossible to take the whole world, or even kepe large parts of it for a long time. You only need one or two things not working for you and you are already starting to fail and you just can't control them all.

	17-01-2005 02:38									#39
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1 naked Finn division has a combat multiplier of 1000.

	17-01-2005 02:43									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I disagree with the world's tendancy to demonize Hitler and make him out to be some kind of monster. He's not a monster, he's a human being just like the rest of us. Aside from the halocaust, what has he done that is so evil?

Pretty big "aside"...

	17-01-2005 02:43									#41
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too bad we are only a nation of 5 million people. And 2 million men.. and... little less than million combat able men. And maybe about 600 000 or little less realistically combat able men, and no experience in other regions in combat really. So the Greater Finland is still a dream . Maybe with great leadership.. maybe.. maybe if it was me who showed the way.. in the nude we would march through the alps and deserts, singing songs and murdering people we come across.. ohh the days.

	17-01-2005 02:46									#42
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quote: If this officer disobeyed an order from Hitler, how come a) he wasn't executed, b) no-one else was sent in his place?

Well, Obergruppenfuhrer Karl Wolff is actually fairly famous. Among other things, he helped arrange the surrender of the German army in Italy.

Near the end of the war (when I assume this order was given) Hitler's orders were disobeyed all the time. Albert Speer and others conspired to disobey Hitler's scorched earth order, for example, while Heinrich Himmler tried to arrange a separate peace in the West (up to and including unconditional surrender to the Western Allies but not to the Soviets).

Hitler was essentially losing control at this stage. Everyone but Hitler (and maybe Kaltenbrunner and a few others) knew the war was lost.

High level Nazi politics are actually pretty interesting - what you will find is a number of different personalities (Goering, Himmler, Bormann, Goebbels, Kaltenbrunner, and others) vying for influence and power, and even working against Hitler at times (esp. in the cases of Himmler and Goering).

By the way, Wolff was by no means innocent of war crimes, and was prosecuted by the West Germans on two different occasions, the latter charge involving the deportation of Italian Jews to death camps.

	17-01-2005 02:51									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Pius XII is a much misunderstood figure. He saved many thousands of Jews during WWII and was thanked by the World Jewish Congress and Israel for his efforts. In fact Jewish religious authorities worked closely with the Pope during the war in a desperate effort to save Jews. It is one of the strangest, most tragic and most interesting stories of the war. But many lives were saved.

Yep... I wonder why in the Hell he has recently been demonized and being Hitler's lackey.

	17-01-2005 03:37									#44
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As I recall he never made a public statement denouncing Nazi Germany. That probably has something to do with it.

	17-01-2005 03:55									#45
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd As I recall he never made a public statement denouncing Nazi Germany. That probably has something to do with it.

Yet that was done because if there was a public statement, there likely would have been a Nazi crackdown on the Church and seeing who they were protecting.

	17-01-2005 04:03									#46
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Wasn't the vatican accused of helping a number of Nazis escape prosecution for war crimes?

	17-01-2005 04:21									#47
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quote: a) he wasn't executed, b) no-one else was sent in his place?

a), the fellow would seek sanctuary with the Vatican, in all likelihood.

b) depends on when the plot was done. Other things would have taken priority.

	17-01-2005 04:25									#48
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quote: which is silly, there were hardly catholics under Soviet rule to be punished for what He said, and no Jews and other to help there (which help would be made impossible if pope officially supported Jews).

Very true.

If your stance could lead to the mass killing of Catholics in Germany, then I think you really have to consider how you are going to make the point.

That's why all these secret documents are interesting, because it gives us a chance to see what things were really like back then, and what this pope did behind the scenes.

	17-01-2005 04:31									#49
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quote: Wasn't the vatican accused of helping a number of Nazis escape prosecution for war crimes?

Yes, there is a recent book about this.

http://www.mosquitonet.com/~prewett/utbook.html

	17-01-2005 04:48									#50
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd As I recall he never made a public statement denouncing Nazi Germany. That probably has something to do with it.

Not true. Pius XII made a series of statements during the war condemning nazism, fascism and communism but always in coded terms. In 1937 he helped draft a Papal encyclical condemning nazism. The nazis hated him.

Why didn't he speak out more clearly? The fact that the Vatican was in fascist occupied Europe during wartime, secretly sheltering thousands of Jews and working with Jewish groups and the allies, might have had something to do with it

Did all catholics oppose nazism? No, millions fought for Hitler, many national churches enthusiastically supported fascist governments, millions did nothing and a courageous few opposed Hitler.

	17-01-2005 04:54									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Very true. If your stance could lead to the mass killing of Catholics in Germany, then I think you really have to consider how you are going to make the point. That's why all these secret documents are interesting, because it gives us a chance to see what things were really like back then, and what this pope did behind the scenes.

Actually western Ukraine, about half of which was part of Ukraine S. S. R. prior to WW2 is predominantly Roman Catholic.

	17-01-2005 05:12									#52
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As is Poland.

I'm not sure what your point was.

	17-01-2005 05:13									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Yes, there is a recent book about this. http://www.mosquitonet.com/~prewett/utbook.html

	17-01-2005 05:43									#54
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whats so funny Imran?

	17-01-2005 06:15									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi If your stance could lead to the mass killing of Catholics in Germany, then I think you really have to consider how you are going to make the point.

Given that most of Germany was Catholic at this point, not very likely. Southern Germany and Austria are Catholic, as would be the Sudetenland.

	17-01-2005 06:15									#56
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I'd have to say that the Pope had a Biblical mandate to publically oppose Nazism in the strongest terms regardless of the danger to the Vatican and Church. The Bible teaches that Christians will be persecuted because of their faith, but that they should be outspoken anyway.

So in that sense, I feel that the Pope failed to do what he was obligated to do, in terms of his religion.

	17-01-2005 06:25									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse whats so funny Imran?

From your link:

quote: In the end, the Catholic Church's intelligence operations not only assisted thousands of Nazis to escape justice, but it also handed Soviet intelligence some of its greatest Cold War triumphs. The authors conclude that the Vatican network was the original model for the Iran-Contra affair and other recent scandals, citing explosive documents which finally implicate George Bush

The books sounds like an idiot conspiracy theorist wrote it.

	17-01-2005 06:28									#58
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I'd have to say that the Pope had a Biblical mandate to publically oppose Nazism in the strongest terms regardless of the danger to the Vatican and Church. The Bible teaches that Christians will be persecuted because of their faith, but that they should be outspoken anyway.

A perfect illustration of why noone should ever going to put you in charge of anything important David.

Grow up son

	17-01-2005 06:34									#59
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Floyd's correct this once, though. The Pope should have taken a firm stand against the Nazis. What if Christians behaved that cowardly during the Roman Empire?

	17-01-2005 06:42									#60
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then we'd have a better world without christianity?