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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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quote:
A perfect illustration of why noone should ever going to put you in charge of anything important David. |
Dumbass, I'm not talking about my beliefs, I'm talking about what the Pope should have done based upon HIS supposed beliefs.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
I suppose none of the Jews should have hid during the war, or left Germany prior to it as well.
Cowards.
And no, Germany was most definetly majority Protestant overall. |
If you take into consideration the annexed populations of Austria and Sudetenland I'm not sure that's the case.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
As is Poland.
I'm not sure what your point was. |
A claim was made that implicated that the Pope could more easily take a stnd against the Soviets because there weren't any Catholics in the SU. I was merely pointing out that there were substantial populations of Catholics within the SU.
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DinoDoc
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AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:30
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Floyd's correct this once, though. The Pope should have taken a firm stand against the Nazis. What if Christians behaved that cowardly during the Roman Empire? |
Does this topic ever die?
quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc on 31 Dec 2001
From the Encyclopedia of Catholic History: "the encyclical was a strong denunciation of Nazism, noting that the Nazis had broken several points of the concordat and were actively involved in anti-Catholic and anti-Christian programs, such as the removal of the OT [Old Testament] from schools and the promotion of the so-called German National Church. The encyclical was read from the pulpit of every German church on March 21, 1937".
More info on the Pope:
The New York Times editorial on December 25, 1942 (Late Day edition, p. 16) states: This Christmas more than ever he is a lonely voice crying out of the silence of a continent... Pope Pius expresses as passionately as any leader on our side the war aims of the struggle for freedom when he says that those who aim at building a new world must fight for free choice of government and religious order. They must refuse that the state should make of individuals a herd of whom the state disposes as if they were lifeless things.
And finally:
The Israeli consul, Pinchas E. Lapide, in his book, Three Popes and the Jews (New York: Hawthorn Books, Inc., 1967) critically examines Pope Pius XII. According to his research, the Catholic Church under Pius XII was instrumental in saving 860,000 Jews from Nazi death camps (p. 214). |
What more would you have him do?
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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quote:
So no, the Pope did not act in contridiction to historical precedance, and his primary responsibilty as the head of the chruch is to secure its survival. |
Yes, the Pope did act contrary to his Biblical obligations. All Christians, especially those in positions of authority, have a Biblical responsibility to speak out against evil, regardless of consequences.
If you really want Biblical cites, I'll get some for you, but I assure you, the Pope had a Biblical obligation to forcefully denounce evil.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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Yes, but unlike the Orthodox saying, Christians are NOT permitted to "walk with the devil until the danger is passed".
A good shepherd does protect his flock, but he also realizes that there are things more important than this world, and that there is a higher obligation - and that obligation is to uphold and spread the Word of God.
If the Pope refused to publically speak out against the Nazis, he acted contrary to his Biblical obligations, even if his intentions were to protect Catholics and the Vatican, because as we both well know, Christians are to "consider it joy when faced with trials and tribulations of all kinds", according to Paul.
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Alexander's Horse
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Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
time: 15:30
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which he did
quote:
Given the praise he received after the war and upon his death in 1958, particularly from many Jewish leaders, the continued campaign to distort and even defame Pius XII’s record would seem unthinkable. Mainly by providing false birth certificates, religious disguises, and safe-keeping in cloistered monasteries and convents, the Pope oversaw efforts that helped save hundreds of thousands of Jews from deportation to Nazi death camps. The Chief Rabbis of Jerusalem and Rome, the World Jewish Congress, and Jewish leaders from Hungary, Turkey, Romania, and the United States all praised Pius XII.
Golda Meir, then Israel’s Minister of Foreign Affairs, delivered a eulogy on behalf of the nation of Israel to the United Nations, stating:
We share the grief of the world over the death of His Holiness Pius XII. During a generation of wars and dissensions, he affirmed the high ideals of peace and compassion. During the 10 years of Nazi terror, when our people went through the horrors of martyrdom, the Pope raised his voice to condemn the persecutors and to commiserate with their victims. The life of our time has been enriched by a voice which expressed the great moral truths above the tumults of daily conflicts. We grieve over the loss of a great defender of peace.
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So shutup Floyd, you twit.
Last edited by Alexander's Horse on 17-01-2005 at 14:28
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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BK,
quote:
The dissidents from Hitler's regime, as faithful Catholics, they would be rounded up and shot. |
This would have including a sizable number - in the millions - of Germans, especially Bavarians. I'm sorry, but this would not have happened.
AH,
Maybe in a circular fashion, but I can't recall an instance of the Pope - as God's supposed representative on earth - standing up and denouncing the Nazis as evil, and urging all Catholics, even German Catholics, to oppose Hitler. I feel that he had an obligation to do so, once he began to understand the extent of what the Nazis were doing in Europe.
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Alexander's Horse
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Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
time: 15:30
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
I can't recall an instance of the Pope - as God's supposed representative on earth - standing up and denouncing the Nazis as evil, and urging all Catholics, even German Catholics, to oppose Hitler. I feel that he had an obligation to do so, once he began to understand the extent of what the Nazis were doing in Europe. |
Thats because you are basically ignorant.
quote:
Ever since the play by Rolf Hochhuth, "The Deputy," was staged in 1963, it has become part of conventional folklore to blame Pope Pius XII for being "silent" during the Holocaust. But that is certainly not what many were saying at the time, including the World Jewish Congress, the American Jewish Committee, Golda Meir, Albert Einstein, and many others all of whom applauded the efforts of Pius XII to do what he could to save Jews.
Indeed, it was the Israeli diplomat and scholar Pinchas Lapide who said that "The Catholic Church under the pontificate of Pius XII was instrumental in saving the lives of as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands." And Jeno Levai, the foremost scholar of the Holocaust in Hungary, said that Pius XII "did more than anyone else to halt the dreadful crime [the Holocaust] and alleviate its consequences."
The chief rabbi in Rome during the German occupation, Emilio Zolli, once said that "no hero in all of history was more militant, more fought against, none more heroic, than Pius XII." In fact, Zolli was so moved by Pius XII’s work that he became a Catholic after the war and took the Pope’s name as his baptismal name.
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How many Jews did you save during the war Floyd? 
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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Hey, ****er, I have absolutely no idea what Pope Pius XII did and didn't do - that isn't my area of interest/study. If he opposed the Nazis, great.
My only point is that he had a Biblical obligation to publically oppose the Nazis, regardless of the risk to himself or Catholics around the world.
So if you post evidence that he did exactly that, I'm not gonna argue with you - I'll just assume you're right. My only point of contention is with people who want to claim that the Pope had no higher obligation to oppose Nazism and the Holocaust if it meant the persecution of Christians.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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Hey, ****er, I have absolutely no idea what Pope Pius XII did and didn't do - that isn't my area of interest/study. If he opposed the Nazis, great.
My only point is that he had a Biblical obligation to publically oppose the Nazis, regardless of the risk to himself or Catholics around the world.
So if you post evidence that he did exactly that, I'm not gonna argue with you - I'll just assume you're right. My only point of contention is with people who want to claim that the Pope had no higher obligation to oppose Nazism and the Holocaust if it meant the persecution of Christians.
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Alexander's Horse
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Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
time: 15:30
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****er 
I just think its funny when people like you pontificate on things you know nothing about.
Did you know there is a forest in Israel of 800,000 trees, representing 800,000 Jewish lives saved, dedicated to PIUS XII by the government of Israel?
quote:
It is estimated that the actions of Pius XII directly led to the saving of 800,000 Jewish lives during the war. The estimate of 800,000 Jewish lives is based upon the testimony of the post-war government of the recently created State of Israel which recognized and honored that pope’s contribution. The Israelis recognized the figure and a forest of as many trees was planted in commemoration in the Negeb, SE of Jerusalem, and was shown to Pope Paul VI with some ceremony on his first state visit to Israel. Rev. Fr. Jean Charles-Roux, now a Rosininian priest living in London and whose father was French Ambassador to the Holy See in the 30’s, lived with his family in Rome during the fateful pre-war period. He recalls that the Pope told his father as early as 1935 that the new regime in Germany was "diabolical." The Ambassador frequently warned his government but the general reaction in France seems to have been that it was good to see the back of the Prussian militarist and that it was no bad thing that an Austrian-Czech house painter was now Chancellor.
The reaction in the USA and Britain was scarcely different at that time; and even later when they must have begun to know about the camps. The U.S. government accepted a total of 10,000 – 15,000 Jewish refugees throughout the war. a truly scandalous statistic.
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Did you know that Britain and the USA closed their ports to Jewish refugees before the war? One boat was forced from USA waters and had no choice but to return to Germany where eventually most of the people on board died in the holocaust.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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quote:
I just think its funny when people like you pontificate on things you know nothing about. |
I don't recall claiming that Pius XII did nothing - I only recall saying that he had an obligation to do something, and I recall saying that he had an obligation to PUBLICALLY CONDEMN Hitler and the Nazis when he became aware of what was going on.
quote:
Did you know that Britain and the USA closed their ports to Jewish refugees before the war? One boat was forced from USA waters and had no choice but to return to Germany where eventually most of the people on board died in the holocaust. |
Yeah, I was aware of that, and it isn't relevant to the topic at hand.
Now, on the other hand, it is historical fact that Pius XII avoided making a PUBLIC CONDEMNATION of Hitler/Nazism, on the justification that it would do little practical good.
Did Pius XII work behind the scenes to save lives, and help Jews? Undoubtedly so. But that's beside the point - he had an obligation to do so, yet he also had an obligation to publically speak out against and condemn Hitler, regardless of the risk.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
If you want to give your personal legal saction to annexing Poland go ahead. I will talk about Germany proper. Not that it matters, even with those additions you would be hard pressed to get Cathlics to make up even 30-35 perscent of the population. |
The CIA factbook today lists the German population as 34% Catholic, 34% Protestant, 4% Muslim and 28% other/agnostic/atheist. It is difficult to extrapolate those figures back to 1940. In Hitler's time 6 to 10% of the population was Jewish and very few people had the 'nads to openly proclaim themselve atheists since atheism was associated with Communism. OTOH since 1945 a large portion of the German population has lived under Communist rule. While Communism in general advocates atheism, the East German communists revered Lutheranism because one of Luther's followers championed the peasents. In the 1940s Germany owned not only Austria and the Sudetenland, but also Silesia and Prussia, all of which had Catholic majorities.
My family once owned the 1939 Britannica, according to which the population of Germany was 55% Catholic.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:30
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quote:
A good shepherd does protect his flock, but he also realizes that there are things more important than this world, and that there is a higher obligation - and that obligation is to uphold and spread the Word of God.
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This is one thing to say in the abstract. Quite another to say this to the real person, whom you love dearly, and do not want to see hurt. This is what I am referring to. A shepherd will endeavour to protect his sheep, not to prevent them from sacrificing themselves, but out of his love for them.
Jesus is very clear, that his followers are to love each other. How can they uphold, and spread the Word of God without this love and trust between one another?
quote:
Christians are to "consider it joy when faced with trials and tribulations of all kinds", according to Paul.
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But if I love my brothers and sisters, I will help them with their burdens, rather than adding to them.
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17-01-2005 06:51
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