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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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But your ultimate obligation is to God, not to anyone on this earth.
If Jesus believed as you do, then instructing Peter to build His Church, in defiance of the Roman Empire, would have been, to paraphrase your last post "adding to the burdens" of believers.
But like I said, some things are more important than comfort and security, and Christians have a higher obligation to stand up for what is right, even if it will mean persecution, rather than stay quiet in the face of evil, even if that is safer.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
If you take into consideration the annexed populations of Austria and Sudetenland I'm not sure that's the case. |
With the Anschluss and the occupation of the areas of Czechoslovakia 'occupied' by Sudeten Germans, the estimates for Germany's Catholic population vary between 40-45%, according to various books I've read.
'A Social History of the Third Reich' by Richard Grunberger (publ. Penguin Books, Pelican imprint, 1974), gives the figure as 43% for confessing Roman Catholics.
There was campaign against 'political' Catholicism in Nazi Germany, but many German Catholics having been brought up in a tradition of volkisch anti-semitism hardly needed any Nazi reeducation- there were numerous towns which had had passion plays featuring what would seem to us as grotesque elements of a casual anti-semitism, and there had also been the depiction and condemnation of the Weimar Republic as a 'Jew' republic.
The organisation of the Protestant churches made them more accessible to Nazi infiltration, but the levels of enthusiasm for Nazi anti-semitism could not be predicted from one Protestant majority area to another, nor could Catholic dominated areas be counted on to be virulently anti semitic, although rural areas were usually more predisposed to be antisemitic than cosmopolitan cities such as Berlin and Hamburg.
The Concordat of 1933 had great benefits for the Vatican and German Catholics; the Nazis recognized seven Roman Catholic feast days as official holidays, the Catholic Church retained its control over Catholic education and communal institutions, the Vatican gave full diplomatic recognition of the Nazi state, and acquiesced to the political submission of its German hierarchy to it.
Monsignor Kaas who played a pivotal role in the negotiation was also last floor leader of the Centre Party in the last days of the Reichstag and helped secure the vital two-thirds majority for the Nazis' 'legal' abrogation of the constitution. His reward for rendering unto Caesar was to become Vatican official with special responsibility for German affairs.
'....Pacelli~{!/~}s (Pope Pius) exalted view of the papacy and detachment from the social dimension of the Church were major factors in the policy of pragmatic accommodation with Hitler; both before and after January 1933. The conclusion of a Reich concordat was a project to which Pacelli had, as nuncio and cardinal secretary, devoted all his energy, but when it was done with the Third Reich in July 1933 it was a grave error. The Lateran treaty of 1929 was taken as a model, but it was thoroughly misleading. The Vatican became the first foreign power to make a treaty with the Nazi regime and greatly enhanced its legitimacy. Pacelli had a close relationship with Monsignor Ludwig Kaas, the chairnan of the Centre party from 1928, who was also a canon lawyer. Both were men of authoritarian temperament, with a low regard for political democracy. After the Nazi electoral breakthrough of September 1930 they increasingly felt that coalitions between the Centre party and the Nazis might have to be made, though on conditions which Hitler was unlikely to accept. It was erroneously argued that if the Centre could tame the Marxist S.P.D., it could also tame the Nazis. In common with most Germans of right-wing views, Pacelli overestimated the danger of a Communist coup in Germany and did not distinguish sufficiently between Social Democrats and Communists.
In pursuance of the concordat, the Vatican discouraged a Centre party vote against the Enabling Act in March 1933, encouraged the German hierarchy to drop its opposition in principle to National Socialism, and sacrificed the Centre party. Pacelli and Kaas, who now lived permanently in the Vatican, played leading roles in implementing these policies.'
http://www.c-c-c.freeserve.co.uk/r112-02.htm
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:30
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quote:
But your ultimate obligation is to God, not to anyone on this earth.
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Then why are we told that the second is like that? To love our neighbour as ourself?
We cannot uphold an obligation to God while neglecting other people.
quote:
But like I said, some things are more important than comfort and security, and Christians have a higher obligation to stand up for what is right, even if it will mean persecution, rather than stay quiet in the face of evil, even if that is safer.
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Yet Paul says, if I have not love, I am nothing. The only way to spread the Gospel is with love, and not without. The only way to stand up for the oppressed, is to do so out of love. The only way to suffer persecution, is to love those who are persecuting you.
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Alexander's Horse
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Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
time: 15:30
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Molly's post is the central charge against Pius XII - the rightwing parties including the catholic Centre party allowed Hitler to come to power and then the Concordat kept the church quiet.
Last edited by Alexander's Horse on 19-01-2005 at 02:54
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Actually western Ukraine, about half of which was part of Ukraine S. S. R. prior to WW2 is predominantly Roman Catholic. |
No. Only Poles, Czechs and Germans (the last two very small minorities) were Roman catholic there.
Greek catholicism was utterly destroyed by tzarist Russia and survived only in part of modern-day Ukraine that belonged to Austria, and before ww2 - to Poland.
So, there was no big catholic minority in USSR
And If I understand correctly, the statesment by pope was done in responce to Soviet treatment of Germans, right? They'd mistreat them only after the start of conflict with Germany, when western Ukraine, taken from Poland, was no longer theirs.
quote:
He could just disappear.
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And it wouldn't get anyone suspicious, wouldn't it...
Can't read more of replies now. Not enough time.
Will do that later.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
No. Only Poles, Czechs and Germans (the last two very small minorities) were Roman catholic there.
Greek catholicism was utterly destroyed by tzarist Russia and survived only in part of modern-day Ukraine that belonged to Austria, and before ww2 - to Poland.
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My graduate school advisor was a Roman Catholic of western Ukrainian descent. His family left Russia before the revolution. They were Catholics then and they remain Catholics now.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
No. Only Poles, Czechs and Germans (the last two very small minorities) were Roman catholic there.
Greek catholicism was utterly destroyed by tzarist Russia and survived only in part of modern-day Ukraine that belonged to Austria, and before ww2 - to Poland.
So, there was no big catholic minority in USSR
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' Ukrainian Uniate Church
Doctrines
Like other Uniate churches, the Ukrainian Uniate Church maintains allegiance to the Roman Catholic Church while observing the rites of the Eastern Orthodox Church. The Ukrainian Uniate Church recognises the primacy of the see of Rome but retains its own eastern traditions, for example allowing its clergy to marry.
History
The Ukrainian Uniate Church was established in 1596 by the Union of Brest-Litovsk. This permitted Orthodox clergymen to continue observing the eastern rite while transferring their allegiance to the pope. The church suffered serious persecution during the Soviet era. In 1946 at the Synod of Lvov the Uniates were forced to join the Russian Orthodox Church. By the mid 1980s there were no eastern rite clergy. During the time of the Gorbachev regime the Ukrainian Catholic Church was legalised. The church uses the Byzantine ritual. In June 1992 there were 2,700 Uniate churches in the Ukraine.
Symbols
Festal icons, Mary as Theotokos, Christ as Pantocrator. (See Eastern Orthodoxy.)
Adherents
There are an estimated 4 to 5 million adherents (Harris et al. 1994, 254).
Headquarters/
Main Centre Kiev. '
http://g.msn.com/9SE/1?http://philt...S=1&CM=WPU&CE=1
' Ukrainian Orthodox.
The communist-era Orthodox Church has since independence divided into the Kiev and Moscow Patriarchates. The Kiev Patriarchate is the largest religious group, comprising nearly half of all those who claim to hold religious belief.
About 13 per cent of the total population describe themselves as belonging either to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) or the Russian Orthodox Church.
Uniate or 'Greek Catholic'.
This church was created by the Union of Brest in 1596 as subordinate to the Pope in Rome but observing Orthodox rites. It was banned during communism. It comprises between a tenth and a fifth of the total number of believers and about five per cent of the total population.
Ukrainian Autocephalous.
This church was also banned during communism. It comprises between two and five per cent of the total number of believers.'
http://g.msn.com/9SE/1?http://www.c...S=2&CM=WPU&CE=2
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:30
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Molly Bloom...
Your post was unnecessary, as it doesn't prove your point.
As I've written before, Uniate church was being systhemathically eradicated by tzarate. On the territories of pre-ww1 Russia, it was practically non-existant anymore.
Things were different in part of (pre-partages) Poland that was under Austrian rule until ww1 (Tarnopol region was for sime time under Russia); there, and only there in Ukraine (don't know how is it when it comes to the part of Ukraine on the internal side of Carpathes, the one which before ww2 belonged to Tchechoslovakia)
Uniate church survived, and, as You can read in your own post, it was abolished by Soviets in 1946 only (today it's resurrected);
This part of modern-day Ukraine before Soviet agression belonged to Poland.
And I assume that when the pope was issuing mentioned statesment, it was already under German occupation.
the statesment I've been arguing with
quote:
Actually western Ukraine, about half of which was part of Ukraine S. S. R. prior to WW2 is predominantly Roman Catholic.
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Is completely false.
quote:
My graduate school advisor was a Roman Catholic of western Ukrainian descent. His family left Russia before the revolution. They were Catholics then and they remain Catholics now.
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Irrelevant. My grandparents also were (Roman and Armenian) catholics of western Ukraine as well. There was a lot of Poles back there, some Germans, some Czechs as I've mentioned, and I guess You could find a Roman catholic Ukrainian too, though they were rather not numerable. Ukrainians of western Ukraine, that is the one that belonged to Poland, were by definite most Greek-catholic when it comes to Galicja, but orthodox when it comes to Wolyn.
I can scan somehow a precise denomination map of pre-ww2 Poland if You like.
Was the family of your teacher Polish or Ukrainian by nationality? And of which city exactly did it come from?
Sorry, but I'm right in this case.
Read my post carefully, and try to find some point in which I'm wrong.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Was the family of your teacher Polish or Ukrainian by nationality? And of which city exactly did it come from?
Sorry, but I'm right in this case.
Read my post carefully, and try to find some point in which I'm wrong. |
Ukrainian, but I don't know which city. He was generally pretty touchy on the subject.
The main point is that there was a Catholiic population in Russia, so it can't be argued that the Papacy felt free to criticize the SU but not Nazis Germany because in the later there were millions of Catholics who might suffer government persecution, while the former had no Catholics to hold hostage.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Dr Strangelove, this claim of yours I find wrong as well, and explained why twice. The catholic part of Ukraine, as well as catholic parts of Byelorus, Latvia, and catholic Lithuania, they were already under German occupation when the pope spoke about Soviet atrocities. Also, there was no reason to talk gently with Soviets - there were no religious freedom there anyway, and no Jews to hide. |
No Jews in the SU? Now I know you're wrong. Don't we have a number of Israeli posters whose families were from the former SU? Maybe you'd like to tell them that they don't exist?
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18-01-2005 14:51
). The church is being slowly renovated with donations by tourists and some locals.
Attachment: 
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