21-01-2005 13:57									#61
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Jon, by the looks of your spelling, I'm guessing you've a had a little too much to drink tonight.

	21-01-2005 13:59									#62
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yes

but that doesn't change things, if I typed real slow I casn spell right anyitime

if I type fast, my spelling is alwysa suspect

Jon Miller

	21-01-2005 14:02									#63
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Apple laptops are so expensive. If you don't want XGA resolution you'll have to get the powerbook and this cannot really compete with x86 laptops. Even the ibook is expensive compared to others.

Anyway, you all seem to take the mac-mini totally wrong. I could just buy one to use as music player that I can put up anywhere in the house or appartment, because of its design.
I cannot place a heavy dell machine in a nice niche.

Ofc the only stupid thing and that's where apple has screwed this, was to still rely on heavy monitors and large keyboards-mouse input devices.
When they make such a nice and really small full functional computer, then HECK do something about I/O devices as well. Smaller computers, require different I/Os.
That is IMO what Apple has not understood.

I think there are some nice mini-barebones from shuttle or MSI that you can use for this. But AFAIK they do not come in one piece and you have to assemble them for yourself.
A barebone system like this: http://www.msi.com.tw/images/produc...lm_img/mega.jpg (which is ofc slightly larger)

	21-01-2005 14:02									#64
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laptops expensive and quality are better than cheaper (*unlke desktops)

IO think I would go IBM orver MAC, but I seriously consider MAC

Jon Miler

	21-01-2005 14:05									#65
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Frankly, with laptops, I'm so sick of my Dell, I'd probably pay more for any other company's, whether it be Gateway, Apple, or whoever (now that IBM is getting out of the game). I just want a laptop that doesn't break down as much as this piece of ****!

	21-01-2005 14:05									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller hmm, but how was the rest of the machine also, even if it is a bit more expensice, you have the apple name going for you Jon Miller

It outperformed the Mac Mini in every respect. Even if it is a bit more expensive, you have the apple name going for you? What the heck is that supposed to mean?

	21-01-2005 14:07									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Frankly, with laptops, I'm so sick of my Dell, I'd probably pay more for any other company's, whether it be Gateway, Apple, or whoever (now that IBM is getting out of the game). I just want a laptop that doesn't break down as much as this piece of ****!

I agree
t
hat is the most important things with laptops

my wuantex did good, but a lot of peoples sonies suck

you want something that works, and can ddo what you want it to do

Kpm

	21-01-2005 19:53									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Of course as usual Asher overlooks the obvious. These are entry level computers aimed at people who are not tech savvy and just want to do basic things. The software bundle on the mini is far superior to that on the Dell for a start. Word Perfect? Jesus....

It's better and more useful than AppleWorks.

quote: To keep the Dell in order you will need to spend money on an antivirus program (a proper one, not one of the free ones) and updates for it.

You're seriously not going to play this game, are you?

If you're going to say "but Dell doesn't include this, but Dell doesn't include that!", you shouldn't be saying this in comparison to a $499 computer that comes sans monitor, keyboard, and mouse...

quote: Time Agathon has spent dealing with viruses and spyware or related activities in the last four years = zero. How many Dell owners can say that?

Probably quite a few of the competent ones.

My family use Dell, and they've never had a virus. I train them well...

	21-01-2005 19:55									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Frankly, with laptops, I'm so sick of my Dell, I'd probably pay more for any other company's, whether it be Gateway, Apple, or whoever (now that IBM is getting out of the game). I just want a laptop that doesn't break down as much as this piece of ****!

I always cringe when someone orders a Dell laptop, but it usually takes a while for them to stop being so defensive and realize there was some truth to what I was saying -- laurentius wouldn't stop talking about how great his Inspiron 8600 is, and IIRC he's looking for a new laptop now...

	21-01-2005 20:09									#70
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What exactly is wrong with Dell laptops?

	21-01-2005 20:11									#71
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They're cheaply made using cheap components and are prone to problems. They also have an issue with heat.

	21-01-2005 22:33									#72
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Is there any problem with Dell desktops?

	21-01-2005 22:47									#73
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No, they're the best mainstream big-brand consumer desktops IMO.

	21-01-2005 23:12									#74
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What's the best for laptops?

	21-01-2005 23:18									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear What's the best for laptops?

IMHO: http://www.alienware.com/Product_Pa...all_gaming.aspx

Alienware laptops are certainly the best.

	21-01-2005 23:24									#76
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IBM laptops were the best... now, personally, I'd lean towards Samsung, Sony, or Toshiba laptops.

	21-01-2005 23:27									#77
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Oh, and honestly?

Why would you ever turn to the WSJ for a decent, intelligent and well-written critique of technology?

WSJ doesn't have a finger on the pulse of technology at all. At best, it's like the rest of the mainstream media.

By the time they hear about it and report it...

It's two weeks old and already obsolete.

	21-01-2005 23:30									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo IMHO: http://www.alienware.com/Product_Pa...all_gaming.aspx Alienware laptops are certainly the best.

Depends what you're looking for.

For gaming laptops, IMO Voodoo makes the best (though I may be biased since I used to work for them )

For everything else, IBM ThinkPads are the best.

	22-01-2005 00:21									#79
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quote: My family use Dell, and they've never had a virus. I train them well...

Fine... my mother has been largely saved from virus and spyware hell because I yelled at her and my Dad (RIP) to get antivirus software. They didn't even know what a computer virus was. I made her install Firefox too (which she likes very much).

But why should informed people even have to take the time to fix this crap.

But there are many people who do not have easy access to relatives or friends to fix their computers for them. In fact that is the case with most people. They aren't stupid, they just don't have the time to waste becoming excessively familiar with computer repair.

My wife is like this. She doesn't she why she should learn a load of boring crap just to be able to keep a computer in working condition. She's right.

People like this are going to spend quite a bit of money calling in the computer fix it people.

If they bought a mac mini they would not have this problem because there are no viruses or spyware that afflict OS X.

The sticker price is obviously not the same as TOC.

	22-01-2005 00:26									#80
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I wouldn't mind if everybody switched to Macs.

Then, spyware and virus artisans would switch their targeted platform from Windows to Mac OS X.

And then you would understand why your current assertion that "security through obfuscation and rarity is good" is absolutely bizarre.

Computers aren't very different from cars, imho. You need to be taught how to use them properly, otherwise, you **** over everyone else.

	22-01-2005 00:53									#81
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quote: Then, spyware and virus artisans would switch their targeted platform from Windows to Mac OS X.

Good for them. But that will never happen. Economic realities mean that Apple will probably never get above 10% marketshare at best.

quote: And then you would understand why your current assertion that "security through obfuscation and rarity is good" is absolutely bizarre.

No. I don't care to speculate about the reasons for macs being virus free. I'm sure it is a combination of things, but no-one really knows. The Classic OS had a few viruses, but nothing for OS X.

The fact is that they are and have been virus free for four years or so now. If you are a basic user who doesn't want to bother with that stuff, it is a fact that you are better off with a mac - it will be cheaper in the end.

	22-01-2005 00:54									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon The sticker price is obviously not the same as TOC

You're missing the point -- that's not what the article was about, and that was not the basis for my debunking.

If people do not follow adequate maintenance procedures for their computer and they don't know how to fix it themselves, it will likely cost money to fix -- just like cars.

The reason MacOS X has "no known viruses" (but does have known spyware -- I've no idea why you repeatedly make the claim that it doesn't) is a factor of its market share.

Most viruses do not exploit program vulnerabilities or program design, they rely on user ignorance.

If everyone switches to MacOS X, you'd have the vast majority of new viruses there, not Windows.

Further, it's not expensive to keep your computer virus free. There are good, free anti-virus products out there -- and frankly, anyone who operates a computer on the internet without knowing the threat of viruses (especially with all of the press in recent years), deserves to learn the lesson the hard way.

	22-01-2005 01:03									#83
	Got spare money?

I still don't see how your type of security, which is no real security at all, is a good thing.

We don't drive without licenses; why should we let people on the internet without some rudimentary education, like...

DON'T ****ING OPEN ATTATCHMENTS FROM PEOPLE YOU DON'T ****ING KNOW!

For an educator, you seem to not really care whether people learn how to use tools properly or not.

	22-01-2005 01:03									#84
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quote: You're missing the point -- that's not what the article was about, and that was not the basis for my debunking.

Then your debunking is irrelevant. TOC is what matters - nothing else.

quote: If people do not follow adequate maintenance procedures for their computer and they don't know how to fix it themselves, it will likely cost money to fix -- just like cars.

Why not buy a reliable car in the first place, or better still buy the kind of car that thieves don't target. That's called being smart.

quote: The reason MacOS X has "no known viruses" (but does have known spyware -- I've no idea why you repeatedly make the claim that it doesn't) is a factor of its market share.

I have claimed no such thing. I consistently claim that I don't know why there are no viruses.

As for spyware, someone who installs it has to have access to your computer - it won't just install itself through a web browser - so it is no problem.

Your assertion that there are no mac viruses because of marketshare is mere speculation. No one knows for sure why... you can speculate all you like, but you have no proof.

	22-01-2005 01:04									#85
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Asher Further, it's not expensive to keep your computer virus free. There are good, free anti-virus products out there -- and frankly, anyone who operates a computer on the internet without knowing the threat of viruses (especially with all of the press in recent years), deserves to learn the lesson the hard way.

But we don't deserve for them to learn the hard way. Again, and again, and again.

If we work hard enough, we can make viruses such a boogeyman that regular users will finally get the urge to ask somebody to spend the 10 minutes needed to install a virus scanner and a firewall. No need for them to learn anything, except that viruses are bad.

SP

	22-01-2005 01:04									#86
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I thought this thread was about guns.

	22-01-2005 01:06									#87
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It is, if you use "guns" as a euphemism for penises.

SP

	22-01-2005 01:15									#88
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Well, i know some people use guns as a synonym of sorts for muscles.

	22-01-2005 01:21									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Then your debunking is irrelevant. TOC is what matters - nothing else.

It's not irrelevant, it's exactly what this thread is about.

Even then, don't even start me on TOC -- it's a well known fact that MacOS upgrades cost far more than Windows, and they're far less upgradable than Windows.

TOC is cheaper with PCs, and the Mac Mini doesn't change that.

quote: Why not buy a reliable car in the first place, or better still buy the kind of car that thieves don't target. That's called being smart.

If you buy a Toyota you should still change the oil. It might be more reliable, but it's still stupid to be ignorant about good operating practice.

quote: As for spyware, someone who installs it has to have access to your computer - it won't just install itself through a web browser - so it is no problem.

Don't you get it -- that's how most Spyware is installed, as well. Most spyware is installed through product bundling, like with Kazaa. It's a component of programs users willingly install. Further, these things don't automatically get installed through a web browser either -- users have to click "YES" to proceed with the install. This is possible on any and all systems I know of, it can be done in Firefox/Mozilla with XPI instead of ActiveX, and it can be done with a simple download dialog box for other systems. Again, it's not that MacOS is immune to such things by design, it's just not a popular target due to pathetic marketshare and meaningless userbase.

	22-01-2005 03:24									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear Is there any problem with Dell desktops?

Watch the PSU. My dell, granted it was made a couple years ago, had its PSU pop after a few too many hardware additions. And the PSU was an odd proprietary type which I couldnt find locally,had to purchase online.

Other than that to the desktop

my wife has had a lot of problems with the dell laptop, but we have onsite next day repair warranty (through her university purchase plan )