20-01-2005 02:10									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Myrddin How do you count famines? Over several years, in many regions or countries; I make it more than one

One famine over several years is still just one famine. It's not several famines just because you want to pretend that Stalin ate babies. Even if famine occured in several areas at the same time, that doesn't make it multiple famines, because there was one cause, collectivisation and the liquidation of the kulaks. It was one event.

What Stalin did was evil enough without inventing things to add to it. All that does is give the Stalinists ammo to prove their contention that everything bad said about Stalin is a lie.

	20-01-2005 02:12									#32
	Re: Stalin monument to be built?? Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo But rehabilitation of Stalin, who was denounced after his death in 1953 by the Soviet leadership for encouraging a cult of personality and killing millions of real and imagined opponents, has previously been out of bounds

This is an awkward sentence. Stalin died in 1953, but he wasn't denounced until 1956.

	20-01-2005 02:25									#33
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Why. Don't Finn's like remembering their part in starving Leningrad?

Learn some history.

	20-01-2005 02:25									#34
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Learn some history.

You first. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Leningrad

quote: A second front was opened after the Soviet bombing on June 25 of several towns in Finland, leading to the Soviet-Finnish Continuation War. By August, the Finns had reconquered the Karelian Isthmus, threatening Leningrad from the West, and were advancing through Karelia east of Lake Ladoga, threatening Leningrad from the North. The Finnish headquarters rejected however German pleas for aerial attacks against Leningrad (with the exception of a sole incident by a single aircraft which killed a lone elephant at the Leningrad Zoo) and did not advance further south from River Svir in the occupied East Karelia. German progress was rapid and by September the Wehrmacht had invested Leningrad. In the North Finnish forces continued their advance until reaching River Svir in December, 160 kilometers north-east of Leningrad.

	20-01-2005 02:26									#35
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There's some people who need liquidating these days. Maybe that has a lot to do with it. Not that the kulaks were the only victims of Stalin.

	20-01-2005 02:33									#36
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You first.

Uh ok let me help you. Read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Leningrad

The Finnish forces halted their advance 160 km from Leningrad because we didnt want to siege the city. So please, take you crap somewhere else.

	20-01-2005 02:39									#37
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Note Finnish armies cutting off Leningrad from the North.

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	20-01-2005 02:42									#38
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Also note presence of German and SS troops in Finland before the begining of the war (which the Soviets claime was the reason for their bombing, though most of the targets they hit had no Germans at them).

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	20-01-2005 02:45									#39
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius The Finnish forces halted their advance 160 km from Leningrad because we didnt want to siege the city.

That doesn't mean that you didn't starve Leningrad. You didn't allow food in, and the Germans certainly didn't. So you and the Germans starved the city. You may not have shelled or bombed it (except once, killing an elephant, apparently), but you cut it off from supplies, thus causing the inhabitants to starve.

BTW, the River Svir is 160 km NE of Leningrad, which is where Finnish forces in that sector halted. In the West, your troops moved much closer to the city.

	20-01-2005 02:50									#40
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OMG!! We should have removed Finland not to border Leningrad from NW!

By the way, what is this map? It has wrong information. In the beginning of the Winter war there were no German troops anywhere near Finland. After the war the Germans came but your pictures have the borders wrong.

Bottom line is we did not participate in the siege of Leningrad. The reason is simple. We didnt want to.

	20-01-2005 02:52									#41
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How many times you have seen a country who is actively in war with its neighbour sending humanitarian help to its enemy?

Leningrad never recieved any supplies from NE anyway. All the supposed food came from SE or East.

	20-01-2005 02:55									#42
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If I knowingly, even if only belligerently, prevent supplies and food from reaching you and (surprise!) you die, I'm slightly responsible for your death

That is one difference between Russia and Finland. Russians recognise what happend in the Soviet Union (even if some are proud of it). Finns like to pretend it never even happend, though the rest of the world knows better

	20-01-2005 02:56									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Dude, Stalin was responsible for some of the most horrific famines ever to hit.... especially the Ukraine. I bet many Ukraineans are fuming over this intention of putting up a Stalin statue. Long live Ukrainean nationalism!

Oh to think that GianCarlo symphatizes with Ukrainian nationalism... Creepy

Anyways, two quick pointers for newfound Ukraine-lovers:
(1) It's "Ukraine", not "the Ukraine"
(2) It's "UkrainIans", not "UkrainEans".

Could be worse though. For instance, IRS - judging by their correspondence - thinks that the country name is "Ukarina" and the zip code is "UK"

	20-01-2005 02:57									#44
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Tass: Look, if you start a war by bombing civilian targets without any declaration of war, you can hardly expect any sympathy. What exactly should have we done wiseguy?

	20-01-2005 03:00									#45
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But Comrade Tass,

Calling all peasants who didn't want to be forced into collectivization kulaks is not exactly being honest.

	20-01-2005 03:00									#46
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Some of? There was only one famine under Stalin, unless you count the starvation of Leningrad, which had, as a proximate cause, the German and Finnish armies surrounding it.

****ing minimizer. I know you like Stalin, but he killed 20 million under his own hands.. and in Ukraine millions starved to death.

	20-01-2005 03:01									#47
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Tass: Look, if you start a war by bombing civilian targets without any declaration of war, you can hardly expect any sympathy.

Yet Finns seem to expect sympathy for allying themselves, even cobelligerantly, with a monster that went on a killing rampage across Europe.
"OH, BUT AT LEAST WE HAVE OUR INDEPENDENCE!!55". Yeah, an independence built on the skin and bones of 55 million dead, including the 15-25 million Soviet *civilians* that you helped to butcher. Congratulations

	20-01-2005 03:05									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Yet Finns seem to expect sympathy for allying themselves, even cobelligerantly, with a monster that went on a killing rampage across Europe. "OH, BUT AT LEAST WE HAVE OUR INDEPENDENCE!!55". Yeah, an independence built on the skin and bones of 55 million dead, including the 15-25 million Soviet *civilians* that you helped to butcher. Congratulations

Stalin or Hitler? Both did the same thing. What about the 40 million people Stalin killed? Actually they don't have a good estimation on how many people Stalin killed.. they will never know because millions disappeared under his dictatorship. You praise Putin who is responsible for the deaths of thousands in Chechnya, and then you praise Stalin. **** you. What about the independence of those in the eastern bloc who had to put up with the grips of the iron curtain? What about them? What about the facts that Soviet Russia also discriminated against jews? And what about the dozens of wars the Soviets started around the world? What about those? Gee... don't play it like oh.. the Germans are always the bad guys.. Hitler was pure evil, but so was Stalin.

	20-01-2005 03:06									#49
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Thats true, but largely irrelevant OMG PWND!!1559

	20-01-2005 03:08									#50
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.

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	20-01-2005 03:10									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Thats true, but largely irrelevant OMG PWND!!1559

You praise Putin who is getting a statue of Stalin built, therefore you praise Stalin. It is the domino effect. Don't B.S me.

	20-01-2005 03:10									#52
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BOO stop trolling T-diddy! :doitnow!!!111:

	20-01-2005 03:12									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo You praise Putin who is getting a statue of Stalin built, therefore you praise Stalin. It is the domino effect. Don't B.S me.

You praise Franco, who lived in Spain, which borders France which borders Germany which borders Poland which borders Russia, therefore you praise Putin who is getting a statue of Stalin built, therefore you praise Stalin. OMFGGG j00 COMMUNIST~!!66

	20-01-2005 03:13									#54
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius How many times you have seen a country who is actively in war with its neighbour sending humanitarian help to its enemy?

Then you admit you starved the city. Thank you. Game, set match.

quote: Leningrad never recieved any supplies from NE anyway. All the supposed food came from SE or East.

Maybe because your armies were in the way?

	20-01-2005 03:14									#55
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Or maybe whole Finland was in their way

	20-01-2005 03:15									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo ****ing minimizer. I know you like Stalin, but he killed 20 million under his own hands.. and in Ukraine millions starved to death.

So says Robert Conquest, but where's his proof? Oh, right. You guys need no proof since your accusations are self-evident. Why don't you just go back to admiring Hitler.

	20-01-2005 03:16									#57
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara So says Robert Conquest, but where's his proof? Oh, right. You guys need no proof since your accusations are self-evident. Why don't you just go back to admiring Hitler.

If anything, your beliefs are more in alignment with Hitlers.

	20-01-2005 03:18									#58
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Or maybe whole Finland was in their way

The whole of Finland was not in their way. If you hadn't entered the war, then the Soviets could have supplied Leningrad around the lake from the North. I realize you had a valid cause for war, given the Soviets bombed you, but they had a valid cause to bomb you, since you had Nazi troops stationed in your country to attack the USSR.

As for the source of the pictures, one is from the link we both provided. The other one can be found here, which will provide you some interesting info about your country's complicity with Naziism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_war

	20-01-2005 03:22									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo What about the 40 million people Stalin killed?

Which is it, 20 million or 40 million? Guess what, nobody knows. Make up a number, it's as good as any other. Twenty people died. That has as much basis in fact as your outlandish claims. But you support a system that's killed hundreds of millions, so what do you care about what the truth was in the USSR.

	20-01-2005 03:27									#60
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Which is it, 20 million or 40 million? Guess what, nobody knows. Make up a number, it's as good as any other. Twenty people died. That has as much basis in fact as your outlandish claims. But you support a system that's killed hundreds of millions, so what do you care about what the truth was in the USSR.

Nobody really knows how many people Stalin killed. But it seems that you are defending him, which is quite despicable. But always a commie, you must defend your ****ing heroes. Outlandish claims? Do me a favor and come back to reality. These aren't outlandish claims. I support a system that killed hundreds of millions? What a fool! No I don't. You are closer to Stalinism and Fascism then any one here, I believe.