20-01-2005 03:36									#61
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Fez,

Why don't you just go ahead and claim that Che is responsible for 40 million deaths?

	20-01-2005 03:36									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Fez, Why don't you just go ahead and claim that Che is responsible for 40 million deaths?

Che How could you?

	20-01-2005 03:37									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Fez, Why don't you just go ahead and claim that Che is responsible for 40 million deaths?

Who is Fez?

Che is responsible for supporting a man who is responsible for 40 million deaths.

	20-01-2005 03:39									#64
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From Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Death_toll

quote: It is generally agreed by historians that if famines, prison and labour camp mortality, and state terrorism (deportations and political purges) are taken into account, Stalin and his colleagues were directly or indirectly responsible for the deaths of millions. How many millions died under Stalin is greatly disputed. Although no official figures have been released by the Soviet or Russian governments, most estimates put the figure between 8 and 20 million. Comparison of the 1926-39 census results suggests 5-10 million deaths in excess of what would be normal in the period, mostly through famine in 1931-34. The 1926 census shows the population of the Soviet Union at 147 million while the 1939 census at 162 million. (Another census from 1937 is known as the "wrecker's census"; its figures were suppressed.) The highest death estimates are 50 million from the 1920s to 1950s, but they are probably greatly exaggerated.

As you you, Fez, you support capitalism, which is responsible for the deaths of more then ten million people every year. In any given decade, your favored economic system kills more than one hundred million people from war, starvation, pollution, inadequate health care, etc., all problems caused by or allowed to happen because of, the profit motive. Even if I was a Stalinist and supported everything Stalin did, I'd still have far less blood on my hands than you.

	20-01-2005 03:41									#65
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A statue of Stalin is a good thing because

1) While revitalizing the Russian spray paint industry they will also consolidate most graffiti problems down to one area!
2) Pigeons will crap on him
3) Saddam won't be alone in the "My Statue Got Trashed" Club
4) Will make Hitler mad

	20-01-2005 03:43									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Who is Fez? Che is responsible for supporting a man who is responsible for 40 million deaths.

I know enough to know that Che does not support forced collectivization, aka 'liquidation or the kulaks.' So, no, you are wrong.

And since you are just coming up with numbers, why not just say he is resonsible for 100 million people dying?

	20-01-2005 03:44									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Who is Fez?

You are Fez.

quote: Che is responsible for supporting a man who is responsible for 40 million deaths.

I am a Trotskyist, not a Stalinist. My side opposed Stalin. But just like I won't say that Hitler ate babies, I won't say that Stalin killed a number pulled out of your ass. The truth is horrible enough without people like you inventing things, allowing their actual supporters to disprove your claims and thus legitimize themselves.

	20-01-2005 03:44									#68
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I cannot continue this discussion with you Che, your gonna have to read about the Finno-Russo wars in WW2 by yourself first.

This I will say. There were 2 wars. First was started by Stalin according to ribbentrop-molotov agreement. There were no german troops anywhere near Finland at that time. The second war was started by the Finns themselves to reclaim the lands the Russians had stolen in the first war. This time there were German troops helping Finland. We should thank them for at least once standing beside the little guy.

	20-01-2005 03:45									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Che How could you?

Can we wait until I'm President of the USSA before we start blaming me for megacide?

	20-01-2005 03:45									#70
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The whole of Finland was not in their way. If you hadn't entered the war, then the Soviets could have supplied Leningrad around the lake from the North.

Hey, the NW shore of Lake Ladoga belonged to Finland before the Winter War. Are you saying they shouldn't have seized the opportunity to take it back during the Continuation War out of pity for the Leningraders?

Besides, the city was supplied from the south and from the east across the ice.

	20-01-2005 03:45									#71
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quote: [SIZE=1] Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: How many millions died under Stalin is greatly disputed.

From your own source.

quote: As you you, Fez, you support capitalism, which is responsible for the deaths of more then ten million people every year. In any given decade, your favored economic system kills more than one hundred million people from war, starvation, pollution, inadequate health care, etc., all problems caused by or allowed to happen because of, the profit motive. Even if I was a Stalinist and supported everything Stalin did, I'd still have far less blood on my hands than you.

Bull ****. It isn't capitalism that causes the deaths of more then ten million people every year. What a load of bullshit. It is you communists who caused Africa to go down the tubes, and I think you communists (USSR) are responsible for causing millions of deaths, starvation and war in many other places. Despite the fall of communism in 1991, many of these wars started by it still rage on. Capitalism has little to do with the stupidities of ethnic conflicts which are moreso fueled by political interests. You are so full of ****. You have more bloods on your hands. Far more.

	20-01-2005 03:47									#72
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quote: Despite the fall of communism in 1991, many of these wars started by it still rage on

Colonization still has a lot to do with the wars of today.. Lets just blame the French and be done with it.

	20-01-2005 03:51									#73
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius This I will say. There were 2 wars. First was started by Stalin according to ribbentrop-molotov agreement. There were no german troops anywhere near Finland at that time.

The first war is irrelvent as to whether or not you aided the Nazis in starving 670,000 people in Leningrad.

quote: The second war was started by the Finns themselves to reclaim the lands the Russians had stolen in the first war. This time there were German troops helping Finland. We should thank them for at least once standing beside the little guy.

German troops were not "aiding" Finland. They were trying to cut off Murmansk. You were an active ally of the worst regime in human history. I don't really know what else is there to say. You've been repeatedly refuted, even with your own sources.

I declare you PWN3D!!11!1

	20-01-2005 03:54									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf Hey, the NW shore of Lake Ladoga belonged to Finland before the Winter War. Are you saying they shouldn't have seized the opportunity to take it back during the Continuation War out of pity for the Leningraders?

As I said, they had a legitmate cause, but that doesn't mean that they didn't take part in starving 670,000 people to death. What he's trying to do is deny they had any responsibility for it. That would be like saying that the United States had no responsibility in the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan, since they attacked us first. The fact is, Finland helped starve Leningrad, whether or not they had a legititimate cause for war.

	20-01-2005 03:54									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Colonization still has a lot to do with the wars of today.. Lets just blame the French and be done with it.

	20-01-2005 03:58									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Colonization still has a lot to do with the wars of today.. Lets just blame the French and be done with it.

You are right.

I'm sorry for blaming you Chegitz. I should of blamed the French. I blame the French this morning because I burned some toast.

	20-01-2005 03:59									#77
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Che, you are now officially declared JAIS, Just Another Insane Stalinist

The analogies Che uses are plain ridiculous. He just doesnt get the fact that if we wouldnt have refused to take part in the siege of Leningrad, the city would not event exist today.

Last edited by laurentius on 20-01-2005 at 04:07

	20-01-2005 04:00									#78
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quote: I blame the French this morning because I burned some toast.

Burnt toast, aka French Toast

	20-01-2005 04:02									#79
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Or you can blame Truman for not letting ol' Patton storm on Russia like he wanted to. Everyone is just as fine pinning everything on the Americans as they are to blame the French.

	20-01-2005 04:02									#80
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara As I said, they had a legitmate cause, but that doesn't mean that they didn't take part in starving 670,000 people to death. What he's trying to do is deny they had any responsibility for it. That would be like saying that the United States had no responsibility in the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan, since they attacked us first. The fact is, Finland helped starve Leningrad, whether or not they had a legititimate cause for war.

OK I see your point. It was a very small part though. The Finns even refused to join the siege of Leningrad. And it was justified, just like most people would say droepping the atomic bombs was justified.

But of course if anyone is to blame it's Stalin and that funny-looking Austrian dude.

	20-01-2005 04:03									#81
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Okay I had it!

I blame the French for being French.

	20-01-2005 04:07									#82
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Che, you are now officially declared JAIS, Just Another Insane Stalinist

You Finns just can't admit you were allies to the worst regime in history and aided the Nazis in starving 670,000 people to death.

	20-01-2005 04:08									#83
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Do they have a Gorbie monument, BTW?

	20-01-2005 04:08									#84
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The analogies Che uses are plain ridiculous. He just doesnt get the fact that if we wouldnt have refused to take part in the siege of Leningrad, the city would not event exist today.

	20-01-2005 04:09									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf The Finns even refused to join the siege of Leningrad.

That's not really true. The Finns didn't bombard Leningrad, but they took part in the seige simply by cutting it off. You don't have to assault or bomb a city to lay siege. You can simply starve it into submission.

	20-01-2005 04:10									#86
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Its like blaming Shindler for not saving every jew, but just some.

	20-01-2005 04:11									#87
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perhaps they shouldnt have ****ed with us in the first place.

then again russians have always been dumbasees as we know

	20-01-2005 04:12									#88
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Che if they cut off the city they only did so by taking back their own land.

(I was *this* close to writing that in ALL CAPS.)

	20-01-2005 04:17									#89
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius The analogies Che uses are plain ridiculous. He just doesnt get the fact that if we wouldnt have refused to take part in the siege of Leningrad, the city would not event exist today.

I'm not using an anaology. I'm stating the historical facts.

Let's look at them, okay?

The Nazis did not, by themselves, cut Leningrad off from the USSR.

In the North, Leningrad was cut off by Finnish armies. On the far side of Lake Ladoga, Leningrad was cut off by Finnish armies.

As a result of being cut off by Germans and Finnish armies, 670,000 people in Leningrad starved to death.

You claim you aren't responsible for this.

Your claim is ridiculous.

	20-01-2005 04:18									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf Che if they cut off the city they only did so by taking back their own land. (I was *this* close to writing that in ALL CAPS.)

Irrelevent.

BTW, look at the map on page two of this thread. You will note that the Finns did more than just take back their own land, but invaded East Karelia as well.