02-02-2005 20:20									#151
	Got spare money?

I guess I need to read the AU mod thread in depth to see what it is all about. Anyhow, for grins I decided to compare the effect of changing to either Republic or Feudalism at ehre I was in my particular game. Should have done screenshots but oh well. Here's the basic down and dirty.

Costs REP FEUD

SCI -81 -58 Slider set at 50%
ENT 0 0 Slider set at 0%
CORUP -159 -96
MAINT -31 -31
UNITS -82 0

The difference in not having to pay unit costs, combined with decreased war weariness would seem to favor the ability to wage war under a feudal gov. I was surprised to see the degree of Corruption in Rep compared to Feudal.

Sully

	02-02-2005 20:38									#152
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yosho, stock rules for Republic were indeed changed in Conquests.

Was:
0/0/0 cost 1 over the limit. Nusaince Corruption

Now:
1/3/4 cost 2 over the limit. Nusaince Corruption

	02-02-2005 20:54									#153
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Combaring raw corruption numbers between represntive and non-representive govts is misleading.

Assuming your not in a GA and also do not own the Colosus, the comparable Fedu Corruption number is between -128 and -144. [Note that this is also why Democracy is unpopular with many players under stock rules.]

This is becuse the AU Mod reduced corruption of Fedualism to the same level as Democracy.

That -82 in unit support costs under Republic with 81 sceince @ 50 is a good example about being eaten alive by support costs. [It's too early to be 41 units over the limit! ] If your not needing to upgrade units in the near future, you can boost the science rate under Fedualism to 80% and be producing more beakers than Republic at 50%. The Military Advisor will tell you if you could support even more units for free under Fedualism.

WW level is the same between Fedualism and Republic, the difference is that in Fedualism, you have an additional tool to fight any form of unhappiness, namely MP.

quote: Originally posted by aksully I guess I need to read the AU mod thread in depth to see what it is all about. Anyhow, for grins I decided to compare the effect of changing to either Republic or Feudalism at ehre I was in my particular game. Should have done screenshots but oh well. Here's the basic down and dirty. Costs REP FEUD SCI -81 -58 Slider set at 50% ENT 0 0 Slider set at 0% CORUP -159 -96 MAINT -31 -31 UNITS -82 0 The difference in not having to pay unit costs, combined with decreased war weariness would seem to favor the ability to wage war under a feudal gov. I was surprised to see the degree of Corruption in Rep compared to Feudal. Sully

	02-02-2005 21:00									#154
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Thusly, early Republic SUCKS.

/Green Acres

"Feuuu-dalism is the gov to be,
Pop-rushing is the life for me,
Towns spreading out, so far and wide,
Keep your voting
Just give me that pop that died."

/end Green Acres

	02-02-2005 21:28									#155
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn That -82 in unit support costs under Republic is a good example about being eaten alive by support costs. [41 units over the limit!]

Only 41? That's nothing, except if it happens extremely early. Later on, the Republic will more than pay for excess military build up. Just do research, and sell techs. This can grant tons of cash, except on ridiculously low, and ridiculously high difficulty levels.


As to MP units being a cost, that's not so clear either. If the city has a Market, a Library, or more improvements, you gain more than just 1 Gold for 1 Trade unit. If this is cheaper that the lux slider, I don't know. It depends, I guess. Might be worth it for governments, that have a relatively high free support (i.e. Feudalism, Communism, Fascism).

	02-02-2005 23:03									#156
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Only 41? That's nothing, except if it happens extremely early. Later on, the Republic will more than pay for excess military build up. Just do research, and sell techs. This can grant tons of cash, except on ridiculously low, and ridiculously high difficulty levels.

Edited the original to be more clear it was the ratio of unit support costs to size of the economy I was noticiing.

	03-02-2005 03:33									#157
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by aksully I guess I need to read the AU mod thread in depth to see what it is all about. Anyhow, for grins I decided to compare the effect of changing to either Republic or Feudalism at ehre I was in my particular game. Should have done screenshots but oh well. Here's the basic down and dirty. Costs REP FEUD SCI -81 -58 Slider set at 50% ENT 0 0 Slider set at 0% CORUP -159 -96 MAINT -31 -31 UNITS -82 0 The difference in not having to pay unit costs, combined with decreased war weariness would seem to favor the ability to wage war under a feudal gov. I was surprised to see the degree of Corruption in Rep compared to Feudal. Sully

some information seems to be missing.

What was net income under republic vs feudalism?

	03-02-2005 22:16									#158
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Can be aproximenated derived:

Republic:

Net tax income after corruption and science: Aprox 81.

Maintance -31

Before units = +50

After units = -32 deficit per turn. More likely to be under stating the deficit than overstating it.

Fedualism:

Net Tax income after corruption and science : Aprox 58

Maintance : -31
Before units : +27
After units : +27 surplus per turn.

In both cases, clearly a FP is in order somewhere (if not built already) along with Court Houses.

	08-02-2005 04:06									#159
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I'm seem to recall browsing through one of many threads about captured workers. Do the experienced Civ 3 experts choose to add them to your own cities and then resurrect them?

And does anyone have a link to discussion of governments as they relate to C3C play? I'm kind of surprised that there isn't a "disertation" on this in the Strategy-General area. But I understand that little has been added as content since 2001-02 except in the threads.

I'd appreciate it if someone has a link to another Civ 3 site that may have a reference in comparing Govs in the Conquests realm.

Sully

	08-02-2005 07:16									#160
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Two captured workers equal one native worker, only they're maintenance free, so I never add them to my cities, just from that aspect. When you also factor in potential happiness problems if you go to war with their parent civ, it seems, to me at least, like a no-brainer. There's the issue of the tedium of moving around twice as many workers, but that's a separate matter from what is best for your empire, and isn't something that I've lost much sleep over, honestly.

In fact, post-railroads, I strive for a workforce of primarily captured workers, simply because that's more room under the unit support cap for units that kill things and blow stuff up. Consider that right around that same time, unless you're playing a pangea map, your navy should grow immensely with the introduction of actual warships (I rarely build frigates or ironclads), and your air force comes into being, both putting further pressure on the unit cap if you're in republic. Under communism or fascism, you will probably have enough room under the cap to not worry about it much.

	08-02-2005 08:43									#161
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

There's one more thing about captured workers which is they cause poorer relations with the civ who used to own them. I'll sometimes trade them back to their parent civ, though it doesn't seem to do much good wrt relations.

	08-02-2005 09:43									#162
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

If memory serves, that turned out to be a myth, which would explain why it doesn't help . The AI's attitude toward you is harmed if they have one of your workers, though, for some strange reason. It's a temporary effect, though, and small.

Found it, from Bamspeedy's article on CFC about AI attitude:

quote: +1 If you sell them one of your workers (not sure why this is, maybe it’s confused and thinks you were at war at one point and thinks that is how it got your slave?). You restore the point if you buy the worker back. +1 for each captured worker you disband (of their nationality). Think of it as disbanding = killing. Using the slaves, selling them, or joining them into cities (even if they starve off), seems to have no effect.

So keep those slave workers without worry.

	08-02-2005 12:26									#163
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Solomwi Two captured workers equal one native worker, ...

What does this work out to be if you're industrious? 3 to 1?

	08-02-2005 18:33									#164
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Yes.

	08-02-2005 20:04									#165
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Thanks everyone for the input! I had been keeping them especially considering the cap issue.

Sully

	08-02-2005 21:22									#166
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Enslaved workers don't have a maintence cost, but do have an oppertunity cost that's higher in porportion to amount of work done compared to a native worker.

Playing an industrious civ, it's almost always better to join captured slaves to cities as you get them. (Exception of barbarian slaves) It's not a good idea to build a worker on a newly captured city though, right most citizen's nationality used and maintaigned.

For a non-industrious one, chances are you can use all the help you get improving tiles. But if you run out of things to do, it will depend upon how many good spots to place extra workers in existing cities you have. If your cities could use a lot more population, your probablly better off freeing the slaves by joining them into your cities.

	08-02-2005 22:11									#167
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Rommel2D What does this work out to be if you're industrious? 3 to 1?

Only in C3C as earlier vrsions the slaves work at 1/2 the speed of your natives.

	09-02-2005 01:12									#168
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

What about foreign citizens that are used to make workers? Are they completely assimilated once the unit is produced? I seem to recall that some of mine still listed another nationality with a right-click, but never double checked this...

	09-02-2005 02:22									#169
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Foreign nationality workers function exactly like a captured or bought slave.

quote: Originally posted by Rommel2D What about foreign citizens that are used to make workers? Are they completely assimilated once the unit is produced? I seem to recall that some of mine still listed another nationality with a right-click, but never double checked this...

	09-02-2005 02:24									#170
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Foreign nationality workers function exactly like a captured or bought slave.

so you don't have to pay any upkeep if you produce the workers normally so long as they are produced in a city that will use foreign citizens to amke them?

	09-02-2005 02:50									#171
	Support Apolyton

Right. Keep in mind that if even one of the city's citizens is your nationality, that's the one that will make the worker.

	09-02-2005 02:55									#172
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Solomwi Right. Keep in mind that if even one of the city's citizens is your nationality, that's the one that will make the worker.

wow, so my efforts to burn recently captured cities down to one pop pt by rushing worker after worker to reduce the likelihood of flipping has apparently also netted me a huge totally maintenance free workforce. That's a hell of a nice windfall. I had been wondering how I could be barely over my unit support limit with such a vast horde of units in my empire. I guess this is one more reason to avoid the pacifist path.

	09-02-2005 03:29									#173
	Suffering from ads?

It's only really a windfall if there's more work to do than you have good places to put them in cities.

quote: Originally posted by Geronimo wow, so my efforts to burn recently captured cities down to one pop pt by rushing worker after worker to reduce the likelihood of flipping has apparently also netted me a huge totally maintenance free workforce. That's a hell of a nice windfall. I had been wondering how I could be barely over my unit support limit with such a vast horde of units in my empire. I guess this is one more reason to avoid the pacifist path.

	09-02-2005 05:24									#174
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn It's only really a windfall if there's more work to do than you have good places to put them in cities.

why would I want to have foreign citizens in my cities when that is supposed to open the possiblity of city flipping or at least make them unhappy when their home country attacks me again?

Anyway, by the time there is no work left to do my cities always seem to have grown to max size anyway and my work starts all over again as I convert irrigation to mining or I plant and harvest forests to speed builds.

	09-02-2005 20:07									#175
	Remove this text

And not to mention...POLLUTION!

Sully

	09-02-2005 20:10									#176
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Would like to hear from those of you that use communism and facism regularly. What are the situations that you convert to them and pros and cons?
Thanks!
Sully

	09-02-2005 21:56									#177
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

There are three kinds of people:

One that always looks at what's the best that can happen.

Another that always looks at what's the worst that can happen.

And the third that looks at what's likely to happen.

You, my friend, seem to be in the second category.

Really one or two foreigners joined to a city that empire never owned far from the borders is not going to be a significant flip risk and unless you were cutting the happiness situation very close already, is not going to matter much in a war.

Note that forest planting/harvesting only works once per tile. (Early patch to vanilla to prevent it.)

If your peaceful enough, then especally if your industrious you can finish all that really needs done while you have cities that just built Hospitals could use some help.

quote: Originally posted by Geronimo why would I want to have foreign citizens in my cities when that is supposed to open the possiblity of city flipping or at least make them unhappy when their home country attacks me again? Anyway, by the time there is no work left to do my cities always seem to have grown to max size anyway and my work starts all over again as I convert irrigation to mining or I plant and harvest forests to speed builds.