31-01-2005 08:17									#121
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Theseus BTW, we finally figured out why there were no AI Armies in stock C3C, and have fixed it in the AU Mod with single-unit Armies. We see them all the time now.

what was the problem? why wasn't the AI building many armies?

	31-01-2005 08:42									#122
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I do not have a shot of an army, but here is a rare one of the AI sending bombardments on the attack.

Is the evidence of the AI sending bombardments on the attack the appearance of two artillary pieces in the contact list? If so is that posted because the AI almost never even builds bombardment units much less make use their bombardment ability?

	31-01-2005 09:40									#123
	Tired of ads?

The AI will build bombardment units just fine. They just, in my experience, keep them in cities for defensive help. Between bombardment units and archers/longbows/guerillas/TOW infantry, with defensive bombardment, the AI seems to love the free potshot at attackers.

	31-01-2005 09:52									#124
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Geronimo what was the problem? why wasn't the AI building many armies?

The AI is hard-coded to not put units in an army if their movement points are lower than the armies'. This made sense in Van/PTW, because it would slow the army down, and it would usually help the AI make better offensive armies, as there are rarely units with more than one HP that aren't the best offensive unit of the time. In C3C, an army automatically gets +1 to its MP, ruling out many units of the time, especially around Cavs, when MGLs start getting formed a lot, as there are no four MP units. Usually most armies that are seen in C3C started with a Swordsmen and later received two Knights.

	31-01-2005 11:10									#125
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Is the evidence of the AI sending bombardments on the attack the appearance of two artillary pieces in the contact list? If so is that posted because the AI almost never even builds bombardment units much less make use their bombardment ability?

It is one of the few times I have seen the ai send a stack with any bombardment units. They tend to keep them in the city and let you capture them. I see them added to units on defense around the ciy or in transit, but not actually atacking my cities.

BTW that stack had three iirc.

	31-01-2005 20:23									#126
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Xorbon One thing noticed missing from aksully's last post: Paratrooper armies don't get airdrop. (I mentioned this on another thread as well.)

That's right X...thanks for picking up on that!

I had the AI mount a counter attack against one of my damaged Armies last night. First time I'd seen it.

I've tied a personal high of 5 MGLs generated last night as I whittle down a strong Incan empire as we approach 850 AD! One more to go!

Sully

	31-01-2005 21:17									#127
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by aksully I had the AI mount a counter attack against one of my damaged Armies last night. First time I'd seen it.

I mentioned that the ai would attacked damaged armies in the field. If they are yellow, it depends on many factors, but if the army is red and they can reach it......

Only full health are safe.

	31-01-2005 21:34									#128
	Support Apolyton

Obsolete armies also will be attacked. For example, I think I've read that medieval infantry will attack archer armies.

	31-01-2005 23:10									#129
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I doubt it. I would need to see it to accept it. I have had AC armies not attacked my modern units and they had scores of them.

I have had an army in every game since the game came out and I have never seen any army at full health attacked FWIW.

Remember I am talking about armies in the field, not in a city. The AI will attack any type of army in a city, once it goes for that city.

I have had several MI armies backed by infantry armies and tank armies in a city, but the AI atacked anyway. Move any out in the open and they will stream by as it they were invisible.

That is the reason SirPleb used the corridor of death. Have a bunch of armies lined up blocking access to a city with only one path open. Now th ai will run its troops down the guantlet taking ZoC shots all the way. Never attacking those armies and they were mostly made up of calvs.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 31-01-2005 at 23:16

	01-02-2005 00:37									#130
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 That is the reason SirPleb used the corridor of death. Have a bunch of armies lined up blocking access to a city with only one path open. Now th ai will run its troops down the guantlet taking ZoC shots all the way. Never attacking those armies and they were mostly made up of calvs.

WOW, Talk about a meat grinder! But I do hope this AI aversion to attacking Armies in the open will be corrected in Civ 4! In the meantime...Grind them up, Spit 'em out!

Sully

	01-02-2005 02:58									#131
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

does anybody ever bother disbanding armies then? Even when they are grossly obsolete? it seems to me as if even an army of horsemen might be worth keeping given that ZOC free attack ability that was mentioned.

	01-02-2005 03:07									#132
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I'll disband them if they're completely obsolete and I need extra room under the unit support cap. By that time, my MA city is churning out armies every 3-4 turns, so odds are by disbanding, I'm replacing a horse army with a tank army, or knight army with a modern armor army. I almost never disband a 4xCav army, as you can never have enough four-movers, and 12 attack is sufficient against everything short of mech infantry.

	01-02-2005 03:45									#133
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I will disband in a game where I had hit the army cap and want generate or build more.

I will disband them to speed up a build, if I have enough (like there is such thing as enough).

I have a leader on another land mass and I do not need one of my armies that is on another land mass. This may not be an obsolete army.

So there are times where it is done, but in a game where you only ever build say 2, it probably makes no sense to disband.

The old ones can still go sit on a new city for MP or quell resisters.

	01-02-2005 06:13									#134
	Support Apolyton

Sometimes, instead of disbanding obsolete armies, I'll send them up against redlined (1 hp) units. Sometimes they get lucky, and other times...well, it's no huge loss.

	01-02-2005 06:30									#135
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Not huge, but 100 shields that can be used in any city can be useful at times.

	01-02-2005 06:58									#136
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Not huge, but 100 shields that can be used in any city can be useful at times.

True, but this way they get to die with honour on the battlefield.

	01-02-2005 07:06									#137
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 The AI is hard-coded to not put units in an army if their movement points are lower than the armies'. This made sense in Van/PTW, because it would slow the army down, and it would usually help the AI make better offensive armies, as there are rarely units with more than one HP that aren't the best offensive unit of the time. In C3C, an army automatically gets +1 to its MP, ruling out many units of the time...

What? That's all it is?! You'd think, given that, that it would have been an easy fix for the developers!

	01-02-2005 08:49									#138
	Inflate your Upload Space

Ahhhh, unfortunately, just when we ('poly and CFC, I think) had helped Firaxis figure out the problem, developer support evaporated.

No worries... I like the solution we've come up with in the AU Mod. Weeeellll, that's not really entirely true: I tremendously miss the opportunity to upgrade Armies over time. But it's good enough.

And answering the above question: In stock Civ, no, never disband... upgrade instead, as the hps have tremendous value (i.e., 2xSwords+Rifle+Infantry). In the AU Mod, don't disband, but rather send that Sword Army into glorious death!!!

	01-02-2005 10:18									#139
	Increase Your PM Length

hey Theseus, Would you explain the AU MOD? What it is/what it does, how it affects gameplay, etc?

Appreciate it!

Sully

	01-02-2005 14:54									#140
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

AU Mod - description, and download. (link)

	01-02-2005 19:56									#141
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Oh my good gracious Modo44! Thanks! I have a lot to read through! It looks very well done. As I breezed through the list of changes I something that sparked a question....

I saw the comments about Feudalism. I usually make a beeline to Republic as I did in a game last night. When it was time for me to select the new gov I selected Republic but wondered about Feudalism. Which I hate to admit I had to look up to remember how it affected game play. Looking it over I couldn't think of a reason where Feudalism would be usefull to play.

My question is, What am I not understanding about this gov? Has anyone used it and if so, what are its advantages to use it versus Republic other than maybe war weariness???

Sully

	01-02-2005 21:34									#142
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Both Fedualism an Republic have low WW.
Fedualism does have police though.

Fedualism is most useful in situations where you'd get eaten alive by support costs running a Republic. (Few or NO size 7+ cities)

In the AU Mod 1.07 [but not stock], Fedualism also has a nod when your more interested in building units than reseraching.

quote: Originally posted by aksully Oh my good gracious Modo44! Thanks! I have a lot to read through! It looks very well done. As I breezed through the list of changes I something that sparked a question.... I saw the comments about Feudalism. I usually make a beeline to Republic as I did in a game last night. When it was time for me to select the new gov I selected Republic but wondered about Feudalism. Which I hate to admit I had to look up to remember how it affected game play. Looking it over I couldn't think of a reason where Feudalism would be usefull to play. My question is, What am I not understanding about this gov? Has anyone used it and if so, what are its advantages to use it versus Republic other than maybe war weariness??? Sully

	01-02-2005 23:33									#143
	Remove this text

I have not tried Feudalism, but one thing that would be of great concern to me is the MP use.

I have found that being in a form of government that gets some of its happiness from MP's is going to raise the cost of support. You will need 2 or more units in most cities to get relieve. In say Republic, you can send most of those MP's out to protect front line cities or go to war.

I have not run the numbers, but I have used Monarchy and even Despotism all the way in sid games, to see what the effect was and I was always suffering form the need to have extra units for MP duty.

I just do not know if it is a trade that comes out a plus or a minus right now.

	02-02-2005 01:10									#144
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

With stock rules:

The hypotechical all size 1 - 6 Republic is going to suffer from either lack of workers and/or double priced over the limit unit support. (Actually not fully hypotechical, check out the power of early warfare and notice ... [spoiler deleted ] )

Each size 1 - 6 town can either suppport a worker or a military unit somewhere on the map. Each additional one eats 2 GPT]

It's generally recomended that an Industrious civ have 1 Worker per Town and a non Industrious 1.5 Workers per town to keep up with improvemening tiles with pop growth. [Consider 2 slaves as 1 native worker if non-industrious and 3 slaves as 1 native worker if industrious.]

The same empire as Fedulaism:

5 units per city for free. Cities caped at size 6 aren't going to need much in the way of military police if you use your military to aquire more unique luxaries. 3 or 4 luxaries by themselves should suffice depending upon difficulty level.

Where Fedualism runs into problems is with Size 7+ cities. That's when the cities with few happiness structures really start benifiting from MP at the same time that unit support is cut to 2, and it's quite likely that the support is quickly going to go entirely towards MP if happiness structures not added.

The same empire as Monarchy:
2 units per city free. It probably does't need MPs yet any more than Fedualism. It would also have some issues but not quite as much as Fedualism for leting a city get too big without any happy structures. (At size 7, gets 4 unit per city free, once the city starts needing 3 MP, that's not leaving much for workers)

Last edited by joncnunn on 02-02-2005 at 02:49

	02-02-2005 01:42									#145
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

joncnunn, could you please edit your post to remove the spoiler info for AU506? Thanks.

	02-02-2005 02:59									#146
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Dominae joncnunn, could you please edit your post to remove the spoiler info for AU506? Thanks.

spoiler? I can see how that applies to movies or other kinds of fiction, but isn't AU506 just some apolyton flavor of a civ3 mod? What sort of spoiler effect were you concerned about? I'm guessing you weren't concerned about spoiling how it ends

	02-02-2005 03:05									#147
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Geronimo, I think he meant spoiler as in giving out information about the map, in case someone reading this thread intends to play AU 506 in the future. I'm not sure what that particular one is, and didn't see joncnunn's unedited post, but rather than being a flavor of a mod, the AU games are typically geared toward developing one or more aspects of the game, and the player's skills. They're pretty carefully crafted to that effect, and the ones I've seen have all been well done. All of that goes to waste if you start the game with more knowledge than was intended.

	02-02-2005 03:37									#148
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Without spoiling, it is entiled "The Power of Ancient Warfare" for good reason.

	02-02-2005 09:05									#149
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Thanks Jon.

	02-02-2005 09:55									#150
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I have not tried Feudalism, but one thing that would be of great concern to me is the MP use. I have found that being in a form of government that gets some of its happiness from MP's is going to raise the cost of support. You will need 2 or more units in most cities to get relieve. In say Republic, you can send most of those MP's out to protect front line cities or go to war. I have not run the numbers, but I have used Monarchy and even Despotism all the way in sid games, to see what the effect was and I was always suffering form the need to have extra units for MP duty. I just do not know if it is a trade that comes out a plus or a minus right now.

Well, unless it was changed in Conquest, unit support is 1 gold per unit, and each unit you have doing MP duty reduces unhappiness by 1. That's the same cost that the maint. cost of a temple has, and if you have any improvements like marketplaces or libraries in your cities, cheaper then using the lux slider. If you don't have the MP's, you'd probably be spending more money on happiness in some other fashon, right?

Anyway, being in a government that allows MP's dosn't force you to use them if you need the forces elsewhere, but in times of peace, or any time you don't need all your forces at the front line, it gives you an economic bonus for having the troops you would have to have anyway. Granted, it dosn't make up for the economic disadvantage of monarchy compared to republic, but it seems like a fairly big advantage anyway.