22-01-2005 11:09									#61
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"6+ archers" are fine against normal cities defended by spears, but against hilled cities (especially ones with walls) it's not as good of a tactic. Against these cities, having a half dozen (or more) catapults to soften-up the enemy can be a great help. In addition to knocking hit points off enemy units, catapults also destroy walls. You can save yourself a few casualties by including catapults in your attack force.

All that being said, you should only start building catapults once you have a modest (or larger) sized army. A half dozen catapults aren't much use when you have few offensive units to back them up!

	22-01-2005 12:28									#62
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I had the same question... guessing: Initial City Placement.

	22-01-2005 21:01									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident what the hell is ICP? aside from the lamo band that is.

Initial City Placement.

Hey Dom don't worry....I read all and listen to no one !

I might have mentioned that I had elected to build the Oracle just to have a bump up on the rest of the crowd for culture. I decided to risk all and not convert wonder building and losing 100 shields of production and switch to military production. It looks to have paid off as I have defeated the Incan warriors and american spearmen, two archers and 2 warriors! All the while building up my southern most city. Am one turn from getting a road built to horses and 5 turns from the Oracle. Pretty soon the Celts will shift from wonder building to unit crunching and take that iron away from the americans.

The next question will be whether I should send a settler along with my strike force and raze washington or occupy? They have new york nearby, and will have another city as well by the time I can attack in force. They have been pop rushing units so are only at size 1 and 2.

I'm pretty sure I'll raze, get at least one worker out of it and use my settler?

I don't know much about the Incas other than they have 6 cities to my 5 and are busy on two wonders. Kind of strange in that they are the ones who declared war on me because I wouldn't give them Polythesism. They have straggled 3 warriors at me over a fairly long distance....none of course have returned home....alive! I'm guessing that by the techs they have that they may be resource poor. I would have expected them to send swordsmen, horse-riders, etc by now?

Anyone heard any more updates on the release of Civ 4?

Sully

	22-01-2005 21:11									#64
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You're right Xorbon....I love artillery of all types! I like to have a few stashed in my most exposed city just in case some civ gets the wrong idea and attacks!

I like to give all those type of visitors some "Quality Time" if you know what I mean

Had an interesting combat result last night. Had an archer on one mountain and a srearman (both regular) and a vet warrior on another. I attacked 2 archers (reg) non fortified in open grounds. It was I thought the perfect ambush with what I had to work with. I attacked with my archer who killed one archer yet went all the way to red in hitpoints/strength. Then I attacked with my vet warrior who got killed as did my spearman??
I decided to run the combat again (don't usually do this) with the same results x 8. What gives? I could see it if they were maybe fortified or were behind a river. But these two dudes were right out in the open? I could see losing one unit..but two?

Sully

	22-01-2005 22:40									#65
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Archer vs archer is 2 att vs 1 def and if no def bonus, should go 70%. Spear vs archer is 1 att vs 1 def and only wins 10%.

If you have the game setup as rng on, the results win never change if you do things in the same order. So if the only thing done that turn was archer attacks archer, the results will stay the same no matter how many times you reload. If you do not use preserve seed, then you can get different results. In the spear vs archer, it could stay the same over quite a few attempts even with the seed off.

	22-01-2005 23:17									#66
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Welcome to Civ3 combat. Learn to pray to the RNG Godz.

	22-01-2005 23:35									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Welcome to Civ3 combat. Learn to pray to the RNG Godz.

Pffft. Learn to bring sufficient forces.

	23-01-2005 00:25									#68
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That too!!

	23-01-2005 02:58									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Pffft. Learn to bring sufficient forces.

Point taken...but they were attacking me and so I decided to punish those hordes since I thought I had a tactical advantage with the defense modifier!

Sully

	23-01-2005 03:28									#70
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quote: Originally posted by aksully Point taken...but they were attacking me and so I decided to punish those hordes since I thought I had a tactical advantage with the defense modifier!

Is it possible you are misunderstanding the way defense bonuses are applied? If you attack them, then it is they who get the terrain bonus, not you! Since they were in open terrain, their bonus would have been +10%. So, your attack vs. theirs would have been 1 vs. 1.1 (or a 10:11 ratio). Still, to be getting the same results over and over you must have had "preserve random seed" on (as vmxa1 pointed out).

	23-01-2005 22:45									#71
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Yup PRS was indeed on. So let me get this straight....if my unit on a mountain attacks a unit in the open...I understand my attack strength is what it is. But the defense modifier isn't applied if I attack? Just if I'm on the mountain and attacked first?

	23-01-2005 23:59									#72
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All defensive bonsuses are only when you are attacked.

That is standard practice not only in Civilization games, but in SSI War Games.

Some of those have offensive penaltives in certain situations. (When attacking out of a tile that is particularly bad.) And several have attack peanalities when crossing the river in leiu of a defensive bonsus against units crosing the river.

quote: Originally posted by aksully Yup PRS was indeed on. So let me get this straight....if my unit on a mountain attacks a unit in the open...I understand my attack strength is what it is. But the defense modifier isn't applied if I attack? Just if I'm on the mountain and attacked first?

	24-01-2005 00:08									#73
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn All defensive bonsuses are only when you are attacked. That is standard practice not only in Civilization games, but in SSI War Games. Some of those have offensive penaltives in certain situations. (When attacking out of a tile that is particularly bad.) And several have attack peanalities when crossing the river in leiu of a defensive bonsus against units crosing the river.

though I believe smac gives a bonus when you attack from higher terraing to lower terrain.

	24-01-2005 00:29									#74
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Your def is not used in the combat calc anyway, if you are attacking. It is just your A vs their D with any bonus they may be getting.

	24-01-2005 02:42									#75
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Which means your spearman is equal to your warrior when attacking (both with an attack strength of 1). If you have the choice of attacking with a spearman or a warrior, pick the warrior since it's cheaper to build.

Remember the basic Civ combat equation for odds of an offensive unit scoring a hit during any particular round of combat:

chance to hit = A / (A + D) * 100%
      where A = attack strength of attacking unit
      and D = defense strength of defending unit + modifiers

It's that simple. Nothing too complex there.

	24-01-2005 05:18									#76
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"Complicate the obvious"! But terrain can be a plus to offensive firepower but I appreciate getting the facts straight!

A great game...so much to absorb! Love it!

	24-01-2005 20:27									#77
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I'm still navigating through the site and I have to say how very impressed with the knowledge here. Was wondering if any of you have "must read" references here on the site or others? Particularly applied to Conquests play?

Sully

	24-01-2005 20:32									#78
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http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=59216

	24-01-2005 20:36									#79
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quote: Originally posted by aksully But terrain can be a plus to offensive firepower but I appreciate getting the facts straight!

No never, aksully.......terrain bonuses only go to the defending unit, not the attacking unit.

Example: Swordsman attacks a Spearman, both on a hill.....

Swordsman attack is 3
Spearman defence is 2, plus 50% for the hill, totalling 3 (or 3.5 if fortified).

So roughly it's 50% either way, but if you want to know exactly (taking into account battle experience) go use the battle calculator....there are several around

	24-01-2005 22:10									#80
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SMAC has a flag in the editor for it [artilley attack only], but 0% bonsus is normal in all non-Beta versions. Unforunately, when the manual was written it was still in Beta so the doc wasn't fixed in time.

quote: Originally posted by Dissident though I believe smac gives a bonus when you attack from higher terraing to lower terrain.

	24-01-2005 22:14									#81
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Terrign is almost never a plus to offensive power except at a very tactical level.

And also at a tactical level there is some terrign that's particularly bad for trying to organize an attack out of.

But usually, the way terrign is helping the offense can be more accurately stated as the terrign is not giving the defenders any favors.

Oh, and note that in Civ III, there is a defensive bonsus even on the light terriagn types. (That is highly unusals)

quote: Originally posted by aksully "Complicate the obvious"! But terrain can be a plus to offensive firepower but I appreciate getting the facts straight! A great game...so much to absorb! Love it!

	25-01-2005 02:46									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 No never, aksully.......terrain bonuses only go to the defending unit, not the attacking unit. Example: Swordsman attacks a Spearman, both on a hill..... Swordsman attack is 3 Spearman defence is 2, plus 50% for the hill, totalling 3 (or 3.5 if fortified). So roughly it's 50% either way, but if you want to know exactly (taking into account battle experience) go use the battle calculator....there are several around

Thanks Aqualung...I've grabbed the calculators and run a bunch of matchups! Would like to see Civ 4 include one within the new game.

Sully

	26-01-2005 19:58									#83
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Want to thank everyone for their input here. I've a great deal of insight into the game play from your comments! Appreciate it alot. I'm going to post a new thread on the use of the science slider so feel free to share your thoughts on that subject!

Also, for any Conquests players that like a WWII flavored scenario....check out the one over on Civfanatics. Warning...this is a huge map with more units on the map than I've ever seen. I have a Pent 4 at 3.5 Ghz with 2 gigs of Ram and it took 13 minutes to load the scenario!! But it is incredible!

It brought back memories of a day long ago when I bought Avalon Hill's Third Reich, opened the box, spilled out the contents, and looked at it in shock! It took over a hour just to set up all those units!

Sully

	28-01-2005 01:04									#84
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13 minutes?

I don't think my computer is up for it. I am looking for good ww2 scenarios though.

	28-01-2005 03:14									#85
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quote: Originally posted by aksully Want to thank everyone for their input here. I've a great deal of insight into the game play from your comments! Appreciate it alot. I'm going to post a new thread on the use of the science slider so feel free to share your thoughts on that subject! Also, for any Conquests players that like a WWII flavored scenario....check out the one over on Civfanatics. Warning...this is a huge map with more units on the map than I've ever seen. I have a Pent 4 at 3.5 Ghz with 2 gigs of Ram and it took 13 minutes to load the scenario!! But it is incredible! It brought back memories of a day long ago when I bought Avalon Hill's Third Reich, opened the box, spilled out the contents, and looked at it in shock! It took over a hour just to set up all those units! Sully

I've got to wonder if we would have to wait 13 minutes if they had kept the simple top down map landscape of civ1. Is most of the lag caused by graphics or is it mostly game mecahnics?

	28-01-2005 18:38									#86
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Overall it is quite impressive in its scope and looks. You can see screenshots of it over at Civfanatics. It sounds like folks with older computers can wait 30 minutes or more to load! But if your machine can handle it....its worth the effort!

Sully

	29-01-2005 00:45									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae The last three traits are bleh. Expansionist is the best trait on the right maps (Huge, Pangea) and is also the best when you get a free Settler in the first 40 turns, but often you will get much less out of it (those players who swear by it are luckier than most!). Industrious is ok, but nothing to write home about. Finally, the best thing about Militaristic is the half-cost Harbors, but unortunately Seafaring does this too. Sometimes you "just win" with Militaristic because cheap Barracks and easy promotions are condusive to an early Military Great Leader, but this strat definitely does not work every game.

I'm thinking of modding expansions by making their explorer unit into a kind of settler so that they really could be about expansion instead of just faster exploration of the interior of continents.

Could this be done in a way that would provide the expansionist civs with settlers that cost as much as regular settlers and have the same population requirements as regular settlers but which treat all terrain as road? Of course in doing that I'd want it to overwrite the existing inexpensive non settler scout unit and I'd want the AI to understand that there is no point in building the slow standard version of the settler when the expansionist version is available.

Does this sound like a workable mod or would it change expansionist from one of the weakest traits to one that would make even agricultural pale in comparison?

	29-01-2005 01:34									#88
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Geronimo, I've been using something similar to your suggestion in my own mod:

1. Create two new units, a "Super Settler" and a "Modern Settler".
2. Super Settlers have two MPs and may only be built by Expansionist civs. In other respects they are identical to regular Settlers.
3. Regular Settlers (stats unchanged from stock) may only be built by non-Expansionist civs.
4. Modern Settlers have the same stats as regular Settlers, may be built by all civs, and are available with Construction.
5. The upgrade path for these Settlers is: Settler -> Super Settler -> Modern Settler

Thus Expansionist civs gain a two-move Settler unit during most of the Ancient era, which is quite effective in speeding up expansion/REXing. In order to reduce the two-move Settler exploit later on in the game (which makes the blitzing rather easy), I remove this unit with Construction.

The two main drawbacks with this mod are that:

1. Expansionist civs can build a bunch of Super Settlers in the Ancient era and just hold on to them to use the blitz exploit later on.
2. Expansionist civs start with a normal Settler instead of a Super Settler, as one would expect.

Still, I quite like this particular mod.

	29-01-2005 02:23									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Geronimo, I've been using something similar to your suggestion in my own mod: 1. Create two new units, a "Super Settler" and a "Modern Settler". 2. Super Settlers have two MPs and may only be built by Expansionist civs. In other respects they are identical to regular Settlers. 3. Regular Settlers (stats unchanged from stock) may only be built by non-Expansionist civs. 4. Modern Settlers have the same stats as regular Settlers, may be built by all civs, and are available with Construction. 5. The upgrade path for these Settlers is: Settler -> Super Settler -> Modern Settler Thus Expansionist civs gain a two-move Settler unit during most of the Ancient era, which is quite effective in speeding up expansion/REXing. In order to reduce the two-move Settler exploit later on in the game (which makes the blitzing rather easy), I remove this unit with Construction. The two main drawbacks with this mod are that: 1. Expansionist civs can build a bunch of Super Settlers in the Ancient era and just hold on to them to use the blitz exploit later on. 2. Expansionist civs start with a normal Settler instead of a Super Settler, as one would expect. Still, I quite like this particular mod.

I hadn't considered any sort of blitzing exploit. could you elaborate a little on how that works and the problems it causes?

Do you find that the expansionist AI civs hold back their 2 move settlers to one move per turn so they can keep them stacked with a military unit such a spearman or do they let the settlers move at their full 2 moves per turn without waiting up for the defensive unit?

	29-01-2005 03:16									#90
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Geronimo I think Dom meant human players would hold back those two move settlers, not the AI.

The settler blitz is basically where you bring some settlers with you to an invasion or attack. You raze cities and drop your own town with a settler and now have access to all tiles in its borders and can blitz to the next city.

This is a killer when you break through the defended towns and find the core nearly empty of defenders. It is more useful against humans who will leave empty interior cities.

The ai is exposed as bit as well as it will have only 2 units in most cases, but at the highest levels the better cities will have more than two. So those nice rails are now offering free move to within striking range. The ai will not often cut the roads/rails to its towns, only yours.