21-01-2005 13:41									#31
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm My second question has not yet been answered - why do commies stick to communism if it has failed ( and caused much misery in the world in the process ) ?

It's the leather jacket of the youth of the 21st century. Don't worry, they grow up. Most of them.

	21-01-2005 13:42									#32
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm @ DRoseDARs I do not confuse these governments with communism as it was envisaged . I associate them with communism as it was practiced ( or calimed to be practiced ) . If communism is going to degenerate into something like those governments every time , is it not a failed ideology ?

To which I repeat:

quote: For it to be a workable ideology, it has to ignore Human nature.

Take that for what you will. My post before has become an almost robotic auto-response everytime I see or hear one of these discussions, though I usually avoid threads. I apologize if I misiterpreted your meaning.

	21-01-2005 13:44									#33
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither It's the leather jacket of the youth of the 21st century. Don't worry, they grow up. Most of them.

democracyt (or republic could hav efailed jsut as easily)

look at the first war of the us

you can see how close democracy was to failing

but we lucked out

communism has just had bac luck

anytime there is revolution, there is a good achance that that revoltutiuon will be hijacked by unscrupulous men

Jon Miller
reason why I ano tpro revolution

	21-01-2005 13:45									#34
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If the US had lost the first war, Canada would be one helluva big country right now. I'd say you lost in the long run.

	21-01-2005 13:47									#35
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well

yes, I agree

but still, the fact that the first war in the US *the revolutiuonary war, didn't spawn a dictator, mad all other revoluitions towards demoracty possible, because it looked like it oculd be successful

such was not the same with communsim atetter the failure of the USSR and China

jon Miller

	21-01-2005 13:51									#36
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Ahh, yes. Being somewhat of a communist yourself, that is quite an admission. Maybe you are outgrowing your leather jacket.

	21-01-2005 13:53									#37
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I ahve never said that USSR and China were successes

in fact, I in general consider my self to be a post marxist communist (and in fact, recently , a sypathiser)

still, Canana is really cool, so of course we lost by not being part of it

Jon Miller

	21-01-2005 14:51									#38
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@ notyoueither - funny part is , I AM the youth of today , if you consider someone whose age is seventeen a youth . I "outgrew" communism more than a year ago as unworkable and useless , also horribly unjust and a violator of fundamental human rights , after seeing what it has caused . It is simply a matter of common sense ( and having the rational faculty that comes before it ) . Why woudl the youth of today try to rebel by following a failed ideology ? Why can't otherwise sensible people outgrow childish notions ?

	21-01-2005 14:56									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon There's a deep evil streak in you UR?

No

I just don't think most of us want to tread over the same ground again, particularly the recent one was just one or two months ago.

	21-01-2005 15:04									#40
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm @ notyoueither - funny part is , I AM the youth of today , if you consider someone whose age is seventeen a youth . I "outgrew" communism more than a year ago as unworkable and useless , also horribly unjust and a violator of fundamental human rights , after seeing what it has caused . It is simply a matter of common sense ( and having the rational faculty that comes before it ) . Why woudl the youth of today try to rebel by following a failed ideology ? Why can't otherwise sensible people outgrow childish notions ?

Why did many of my friends wear leather and ride fast bikes to piss off their parents?

Why did youth after them shave their heads, wear chains and go punk?

Rebellion.

Not everyone feels compelled to rebel. You don't. Neither did I. In fact, you might find the majority do not, but the age will still be marked by the rebels. Today, it is later day communists and anarchists who wear the marks of rebellion.

Also, its safe. When I was 18 you could easily get your lights punched out by standing up in a bar and proclaiming your communism. 20 years before, you could get punched out for wearing leather and going into a similar bar. Now, no one is getting punched out, so people can do whatever they wish.

It all boils down to they are rebels with the hearts of pussies. They don't have the balls to do anything really dangerous. It's not like they have the heart of a Lenin if you gathered them all up and focused the effort. No, they are content to piss and moan from their comfortable homes, using their modern technology to piss and moan to each other. Poverty and injustice? They haven't a clue.

	21-01-2005 15:10									#41
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Why has this thread failed to stick with the original subject of Communism , instead veering towards discussion of leather , piss , and the need for punishment ?

I am fightened by this developement .

	21-01-2005 15:13									#42
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No, you're pissing and moaning from the comfort of your home with high speed internet access.

Hands up how many commies are on community dialup access (freenet)?

	21-01-2005 15:14									#43
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither It's the leather jacket of the youth of the 21st century. Don't worry, they grow up. Most of them.

You don't see the practical benefits of leather jackets? I don't plan on discarding mine until it starts to fall apart no matter how old I get.

	21-01-2005 15:16									#44
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I don't piss. I urinate. And I don't moan. I pontificate.

	21-01-2005 15:19									#45
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither If the US had lost the first war, Canada would be one helluva big country right now. I'd say you lost in the long run.

why would one country from the arctic ocean to the gulf of mexico be a good thing? The US sometimes seems to creak a bit on it's joints as it is.

	21-01-2005 15:20									#46
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Thinking of two vocal commies.

When he works, che makes a considerable amount of money. Yes, he always returns to complain about having to sell CDs when things tank and finances grow tight. The question I have to ask is why he didn't prepare for it?

Then there's aggy. dear, sweet aggy. He wouldn't starve if the cow were dragged off his table. He'd still feast on the pig. He is in the university system in Canada. It certainly isn't a horn of plenty, but nobody ever starved teaching uni at UofT either.

These are your champions. Neither really has a clue what it is to be truely down and out and at the mercy of the man. Nor do I. Who here does? I detect there might be a couple of them, but the most vocal of the commies are not them.

	21-01-2005 15:23									#47
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Hands up how many commies are on community dialup access (freenet)?

I fail to see your point. We live in a capitalist society and thus have to survive in it. Some of us do relatively well in it, but we can acknowledge it for what it is in terms of materialism. However having broadband is very useful compared to the alternatives. I promise you in a communist society there will be broadband for all!

	21-01-2005 15:23									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo why would one country from the arctic ocean to the gulf of mexico be a good thing? The US sometimes seems to creak a bit on it's joints as it is.

Peoiple in New York would have more allies, and so would people in Alberta?

	21-01-2005 15:24									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison I fail to see your point. We live in a capitalist society and thus have to survive in it. Some of us do relatively well in it, but we can acknowledge it for what it is in terms of materialism. However having broadband is very useful compared to the alternatives. I promise you in a communist society there will be broadband for all!

False promises and no Gods, or what was that saying?

Is that like everyone will have a servicable automobile?

	21-01-2005 15:26									#50
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither When he works, che makes a considerable amount of money. Yes, he always returns to complain about having to sell CDs when things tank and finances grow tight. The question I have to ask is why he didn't prepare for it? Then there's aggy. dear, sweet aggy. He wouldn't starve if the cow were dragged off his table. He'd still feast on the pig. He is in the university system in Canada. It certainly isn't a horn of plenty, but nobody ever starved teaching uni at UofT either.

Again this notion that their political beliefs preclude them from being able to lead a normal existence. Again, we live in a capitalist system and have to survive within it. Otherwise we'd starve. Che does what he can to get by. Aggy, a lecturer? It's hardly selling his soul to corporate satan is it? It pays him a living and he gets job satisfaction. Which is something we strive for.

	21-01-2005 15:27									#51
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither False promises and no Gods, or what was that saying? Is that like everyone will have a servicable automobile?

What the hell are you on about now? I see no bearing of those two sentences on what I have said...

Automobiles? We need to move away from those to a feasible mass transit alternative...

	21-01-2005 15:27									#52
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Ermmm, yes. Who is giving a lift to whom this weekend, PH?

	21-01-2005 15:28									#53
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Ermmm, yes. Who is giving a lift to whom this weekend, PH?

Ermmm, no. I will be going into London, for which I will be using the train.

	21-01-2005 15:29									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Again this notion that their political beliefs preclude them from being able to lead a normal existence. Again, we live in a capitalist system and have to survive within it. Otherwise we'd starve. Che does what he can to get by. Aggy, a lecturer? It's hardly selling his soul to corporate satan is it? It pays him a living and he gets job satisfaction. Which is something we strive for.

And here I always thought that communism was supposed to spring from the downtroddeness of the... what was it? Working class? Yes, i think that was it. Wasn't that it?

	21-01-2005 15:30									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Ermmm, no. I will be going into London, for which I will be using the train.

Ahh. Dense as a cliff in Dover as always.

	21-01-2005 15:34									#56
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Lenin was a lawyer by background. Your point?

Myself, I may have done alright educationally but I am from a working class background and know the situation.

	21-01-2005 15:36									#57
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Ahh. Dense as a cliff in Dover as always.

What? Just because you speak in riddles there is no need to be so f**king rude or I am ending this conversation now.

	21-01-2005 15:36									#58
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Lenin didn't actually do a very good job for the lower classes if effect is measured over time, did he?

In fact, I would say he was a social worker with no supervision and with destructive power at his disposal.

Then there's that whole thing of leaving Stalin behind as a sort of poison pill. What was that all about?

	21-01-2005 15:39									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison What? Just because you speak in riddles there is no need to be so f**king rude or I am ending this conversation now.

Awww, PH, don't go away hurt and all. I simply commented on the lack of sharpness that would not recognise that he had been the ride for many people on many journeys, and go 'who, me?'

	21-01-2005 15:40									#60
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Awww, PH, don't go away hurt and all. I simply commented on the lack of sharpness that would not recognise that he had been the ride for many people on many journeys, and go 'who, me?'

See, you speak words but the combination makes next to no sense...