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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:29
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The lure of communism seems simple to me . .
In a world where there is plenty it is unconscionable that there be poverty. Even within wealthy nations, there are the very poor and homeless. So the communist says we should all share. Its a wonderful theory that seems to fail in practice. I have written often against some of the possible manifestations that have been proposed
A capitalist society sees the same problem and also moves to address it, usually through welfare. These systems don't care if you have a medical disability, some unforseen bad fortune or are merely lazy . . . everyone gets a minimum standard of income.
Now I like the fact that my society ( Canada)takes steps to help people. I have no problem being taxed for that purpose. That's why I like a system with a strong social safety net.
Now that net is imperfect. So there is no need to go googling for its failings. I know it doesn't always work as well as it should in practice .
So that's my preferred system . . a minimum standard of living for all. If you want more, it will depend on your own abilities and efforts ( and those of your forbears). I think equality of condition is an unrealistic goal. What I would hope for is an equality of opportunity but the problem I see is that that may never be attained without an unreasonable limitation on personal freedoms.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:29
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Oh what the hell, I got nothin' better to do. And I'm gonna fix his punctuation!
quote:
Originally posted by aneeshm
Why? Why has it failed everywhere within a hundred years of inception, and caused a hundred million deaths in the process, both through slavery, and famine. |
Someone's reading The Black Book of Communism? Even if one hundred million deaths under 100 years of communism were true, it pales in comparison to 100 million deaths under each decade of capitalism. Anyway, I dispute your oringal premise. Commmunism has not failed everywhere.
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By contrast, no capitalist country has faced a famine, anywhere in the world. Ever. In its entire history. |
 Bu-u-u-u-ulllllllll ****! The capitalist world has been racked with famine since its inception. Even today, somewhere between ten and fifteen million people each year die from famine and easily preventable disease in the capitalist world. Right now, Western Africa is facing famine, and there is famine in Sudan.
quote:
Don't give me the claptrap about it never being implemented properly. |
You can't demand somone answer a question, and then tell them they can't give you an answer.
Anyway, it's not so much a matter of it not being implimented properly as it being hijacked by alien class forces. In the USSR, the bureacuracy siezed control in the late 1920s. Using their presteige, the Soviet bureuacracy managed to remark the world's Communist parties in its own image, so it ceased to be socialism and a socialist movement and instead became Stalinism and a Stalinist movement.
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And don't give me the example of China as successful, it is now a semi-capitalist country, where the state provides businesses slave labour, and then keeps half the profits of the business for itself - thus it's ability to survive. |
China was always a capitalist economy, even under Mao. They never made the transition to a non-exchange-value economy. Even if one accepts China as a legitimate socialist country, the current phase of capitalist development is not necessarily a permanent one. It is possible that this is China's NEP, that they are using China's capitalists to build the economy to a point sufficient for the state to once again take control.
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India was by no means capitalist at that time. It was a "mixed economy," a euphemish for super-socialist. |
In India, goods were produced to be sold. Despite a large state sector, India was a capitalist country from birth, as well as for over a hundred years as a colony of the Brits.
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I have a request to make - try no to blame the capitalist nations for the fall of Communism. |
Why shouldn't we? When the capitalists invaded the Paris Commune, it was definately the capitalists fault the system failed. When the capitalists invaded the USSR at its birth, then cut it off from trade, then invaded it again, then used terrorism to sabotage the economy, it's hard to claim that the problems of the USSR were entirely of its own making.
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Capitalism had to struggle through tremendously hostile times - worse than the communists had to face - and still survived and flourished. |
Hardly. Capitalism was vastly superior to the system that came before it, and once in power, it never let go. It never even had to hang on for dear life. Even when defeated politically, the economy remained capitalist. No capitalist economy ever slipped backwards, despite the triumph of the forces of reaction on the battelfield.
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Also, is it not a failure on the part of Marx that he could not make correct predictions? |
Marx didn't make predictions.
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My second question has not yet been answered - why do commies stick to communism if it has failed (and caused much misery in the world in the process)? |
Because it's a logical system which explains the world and shows how to build a world based on rationalism.
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:29
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Yeah, but those stats are misleading. That's kinda like saying that all that foreign investment in Cancun has made the average Mexican living in the Yucatan well off. Outside the resorts, Cuba was as much of a sh*thole as the other Caribbean islands.
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Also -- Cuba is far far from a communist society. people are selling stuff for prsonal profit all over the place and most of the tourist industry is housed in hotels built by foreign corporations and run for profit.
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
The fact is you can't have a communist nation, only a communist world. |
If the system is incapable of working in a portion of the world, then you are confirming that it is a pie-in the sky theory with no practical application to the current situation on earth.
Wake me up when you have achieved world unity
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Kidicious
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Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:29
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
That doesn't make it communism. Charity was common under feudalism as well, and in that society ti was obligatory. Capitalists understake all sorts of non-economic related works which serve no other purpose but to make life a little more bearable. They support the arts, build libraries and parks, found schools, etc. It is necessary to remember that capitalists are human beings too, however distored by their position in socioety, and that doing good works makes them feel better. Regardless, we can't expect capitalist charity to sustain those whom capitalism considers useless. |
I know. They have to be obligated. Charity is by definition, not an obligation. The obligation makes it communism in so far as it doesn't serve only individuals or special interests.
And I know it's not absolute or ideal communism, but it isn't capitalism, and it is communism within a capitalist system, just like you can have capitalist aspects in a communist system.
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21-01-2005 15:42
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