23-01-2005 21:07									#31
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quote: Yes, punish Arnold for having different beliefs than his government!

There is a fine difference between beliefs and the constitution

	23-01-2005 21:08									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi I hope Austria does this. The Move would be great for Arnold's political career.

Shows once more that the US is nothing but reactionary.

	23-01-2005 21:10									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Winston In WWII, he served in the SA, not the SS.

The SA was destroyed in 1936. Waldheim was a leading officer in a unit that deported Greek (maybe Yugoslavian, maybe both) Jews to a death camp.

	23-01-2005 21:10									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa There is a fine difference between beliefs and the constitution

That would be an interesting read. I have no doubt that the Austrian constitution outlaws the death penalty in Austrian courts as that was a major post war campaign in Europe but I wonder if it deals with issues like duel citizenship much less duel citizens who hold elected office in other countries.

You still haven't explained how no criminal ever loses his citizenship no matter the crime but you want a man to lose his citizenship because his politics are different from yours.

	23-01-2005 21:11									#35
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I don't see why Arnold still has dual citizenship anyway. Shouldn't he have revoked it in order to serve as an officer of a foreign government?

	23-01-2005 21:30									#36
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quote: That would be an interesting read. I have no doubt that the Austrian constitution outlaws the death penalty in Austrian courts as that was a major post war campaign in Europe but I wonder if it deals with issues like duel citizenship much less duel citizens who hold elected office in other countries.

The way I understand this is: If you are citizen of some country you have to obey their laws.
So if Arnold has enforced the Death Penalty he violated austrian laws, thus he can be tried here.
Even if this would be in accordance with US laws.

It's the same with e.g. you traveling to the netherlands and smoking weed. Theoretically your government could arrest you at home, if they have evidence that you went to the netherlands and smoked weed there.

Or in another case. If there is a marriage between two (austrian) lesbians or gays in the netherlands, then this marriage is not in accordance with austrian laws and thus not valid here. There had been such a case recently and it was very difficult for the austrian women (the other was german), because they were married in (i think) germany and wanted german citizenship, but she couldn't get it, because the austrian bureaucracy would not accept her new name and the germans needed a document with her new name from austria which austria couldn't do, because according to austrian law she had no new name...

quote: You still haven't explained how no criminal ever loses his citizenship no matter the crime but you want a man to lose his citizenship because his politics are different from yours.

Well if he still wants to keep his citizenship okay. There is nothing I could do about. But he would have to face a trial the next time he would enter Austria. He would be arrested and brought before court.
Not that I really think it would go this far.

Basically what will happen is: NOTHING. Schwarzenegger will continue to enforce the DP and the left wing parties will continue to get upset by this. Until 2006 when there are parliamentary votes again (and the left will probably win) I don't see much happening.

edit100: Markos dammit when will you fix the stupid quote-answer appears double times bug
edit101:

	23-01-2005 21:47									#37
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I don't believe he enforced the death penality he simply didn't opt to commute the jury's sentence. I'd like to point out that that this Beardslee fellow has been on death row for nearly 25 years and has had so many appeals and reviews that no one can claim he didn't get a fair judicial review. Before anyone asks, yes, DNA tests we done multiple times and he most certainly did rape and murder those two girls.

We can go round and round on the morality of the death penalty and if it is an effective deterent but the fact remains that it is almost unheard of to remove a person's citizenship. Not even Kurt Waldheim (the former Austrian President & U.N. secretary-general who was later found to be a Nazi war criminal) lost his citizenship so I think it is pretty clear that this Green Party PM is just flapping his jaws in order to pander for a few votes. Sadly, it seems some people are actually gullible enough to buy his shtick.

	23-01-2005 21:51									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa Shows once more that the US is nothing but reactionary.

Yup.

	23-01-2005 21:57									#39
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quote: I don't believe he enforced the death penality he simply didn't opt to commute the jury's sentence. I'd like to point out that that this Beardslee fellow has been on death row for nearly 25 years and has had so many appeals and reviews that no one can claim he didn't get a fair judicial review. Before anyone asks, yes, DNA tests we done multiple times and he most certainly did rape and murder those two girls.

Well if you want to get justification you cannot, even if you make a million tests and certainty is 100% it's still illegal here.

Ok, but the point is that he didn't enforce it and just did nothing against it. This would surely be a lawyers fest sorting out if that is in accordance with austrian law or not. Probably will turn out in Arnold's favor.

quote: We can go round and round on the morality of the death penalty and if it is an effective deterent but the fact remains that it is almost unheard of to remove a person's citizenship. Not even Kurt Waldheim (the former Austrian President & U.N. secretary-general was alater found to be a Nazi war criminal) lost his citizenship so I think it is pretty clear that this Green Party PM is just flapping his jaws in order to pander for a few votes. Sadly, it seems some people are actually gullible enough to buy his shtick.

Again: Criminals don't lose citizenship by definition. It's just a method in Arnold's case, who we can hardly try in court here, no?

And only by this idiot Pilz. I don't particularly like this guy. The green party has a very charismatic and clever leader here. That's why most people vote for them. I am pretty sure the whole party falls with him as they only consist of idealistics.
And I am pretty sure this will buy him no votes. This won't buy anyone votes, because I think everybody gives a rat's ass about what Arnold does in California. Everybody but Pilz of course.

	23-01-2005 21:58									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Yup.

You have to say NO, dammit

	23-01-2005 21:59									#41
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This is one of the rare times I'll support Arnold.

	23-01-2005 22:00									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa You have to say NO, dammit

Nein!

	23-01-2005 22:10									#43
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A+ for your german Ted

	23-01-2005 22:19									#44
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OK, some corrections.
@Oerdin and Patroklos: What do you mean the "left of center Austrian PM"""disagreement with his government"? Please, read an article before commenting. We have a conservative government and the proposal came from an oppositional Green politican.

@Winston: sure it was legitimate for Arnie to do as he did regarding the laws of California and Austria shouldn't interfere more than in any other cases of death penalty in the world (and it's perfectly legitimate to voice disagreement and disapproval, just like the world public does with those poor women in Nigeria). Yet, Arnie is Austrian citizen, and AS SUCH he's not allowed to arrange a death penalty. It's not according to Austrian values. Stripping him from dual citizenship is populist blabla though and won't happen anyway.

About Kurt Waldheim:
1.) He was NEVER Prime Minister, "only" president. I say only, because the Austrian president actually has no power and doesn't make politics. His political role is better compared with royals than with government.
2). It's right, he served in the SS.
3). This was no problem whatsoever when he was general secretary of the UNO. Come on, some people must have known then already. It became a problem only when he was for election as Austrian president and in the middle of the campaign, Socialists came up with those accusations nobody knew about. Austrians didn't vote Waldheim because in the SS or because his positions were Nazi-like, but because they didn't believe the allegations and thought it was a smear-campaign. I have not yet concluded how much truth there is and how much smear, but IF Waldheim was a war criminal or at least dubious in his actions, after the war his career and political positions had nothing to do with Nazi values. Let's furthermore consider that was not honest and he had lied to people, still being a NJazi at his heart, his campaign had not a single extremist element, so saying "Austrians voted Nazi" is a complete distortion of what happened.

	23-01-2005 22:20									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa And I am pretty sure this will buy him no votes. This won't buy anyone votes, because I think everybody gives a rat's ass about what Arnold does in California. Everybody but Pilz of course.

I hear the greens are so worked up over this that they've started a petetion drive to rename the sports stadium named after Arnie.

	23-01-2005 22:23									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III OK, some corrections. @Oerdin and Patroklos: What do you mean the "left of center Austrian PM"""disagreement with his government"? Please, read an article before commenting. We have a conservative government and the proposal came from an oppositional Green politican.

The green party is a left of center party and Plaz is a MP in it. I meant MP as in member of parliment but I typed PM.

	23-01-2005 22:26									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa Shows once more that the US is nothing but reactionary.

Eurosnobs might want to think twice about foreign criticism helping a US politician. Schroeder didn't even need to invite criticism, he was able to get re-elected pure on slamming the US.

	23-01-2005 22:56									#48
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The SA was destroyed in 1936. Waldheim was a leading officer in a unit that deported Greek (maybe Yugoslavian, maybe both) Jews to a death camp.

Leading officer... I heard he was a translator after serving in the SA.

My main reason for posting however was to point out that he wasn't in the SS, and also that he wasn't Prime Minister later on.

	23-01-2005 22:58									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Let me get this straight. Murders and rapists never have people calling for them to lose their citizenship but you do want elected politicians who carry out the duties of their office to lose their citizenship? That doesn't make sense at all.

Why, yes. In my book, government-sanctioned murder ranks higher than murder on personal grounds. In one case one man takes another man's life, in the other an entire society participates in the act.

But either way, yes, people with a double nationality *have* been stripped of one of their nationalities in the past, and although I usually see it as moving the problem elsewhere rather than solving it, it can certainly happen if there's a legal framework for it (as is the case in Austia).

Stripping someone of his only nationality is a different matter though (there are international treaties dealing with that), but that's not the case here.

	23-01-2005 23:11									#50
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old europe

	23-01-2005 23:14									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X I´d say his films do more damage to Austria them his actions as a governor... But how come you only hear about Austria when it´s in connection with some right-wing nut? I mean Adolf Hitler, Jörg Haider and whatshisname the former prime minister that was some hotshot in the SS?

don't be badmouthing his films dammit!

well maybe his later films. He is a quality actor who has made many fine movies.

	23-01-2005 23:16									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I hear the greens are so worked up over this that they've started a petetion drive to rename the sports stadium named after Arnie.

Yes, I don't know what that should help...
Anyway in a month this will be forgotten again.

quote: Eurosnobs might want to think twice about foreign criticism helping a US politician. Schroeder didn't even need to invite criticism, he was able to get re-elected pure on slamming the US.

Schröder was reelected, because his opponent was the Bavarian PM (Edmund Stoiber) and everybody in Germany hates Bavarians and especially Stoiber.

	23-01-2005 23:16									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus The death penalty is an absolutely barbaric practice that doesn't befit any remotely civilized country -- such as Austria. Taking away Ahnold's citizenship would of course merely be a symbolic gesture, but it would be a signal of intent

you guys just don't understand how bad crime is here in the U.S. I don't think none of you are qualified to say whether we should have the death penalty or not.

You guys would probably just cower in fear if you were in cities such as Detroit or south central LA.

	23-01-2005 23:49									#54
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So you take the high crime rate to judge the need for DP to reduce it?
Ummm for how long has the DP been in effect now?

quote: You guys would probably just cower in fear if you were in cities such as Detroit or south central LA.

I'm pretty sure I would. But what does that say?
How many people from Detroit get executed? Or from south central LA?

	23-01-2005 23:51									#55
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I think I need to make my support known again:

Arnold
Austrian Green Party politicians who have more than a few brain cells missing

	23-01-2005 23:55									#56
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thumb down for both

	23-01-2005 23:59									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa So you take the high crime rate to judge the need for DP to reduce it? Ummm for how long has the DP been in effect now? I'm pretty sure I would. But what does that say? How many people from Detroit get executed? Or from south central LA?

Few, if any. Notice however that Texas has 3 cities in the top 20 safest cites:
safest US cities

Something to think about.

ACK!

	24-01-2005 00:21									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident you guys just don't understand how bad crime is here in the U.S. I don't think none of you are qualified to say whether we should have the death penalty or not.

So in response to all the murders you're gonna murder people yourself? Yeah, that's real civilized

	24-01-2005 00:26									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus So in response to all the murders you're gonna murder people yourself? Yeah, that's real civilized

how is putting them in a cage like animals any more civilized?

you can't just let criminals go free. They must be punished. I support the death penalty, but not the system the U.S. currently uses. Far too likely for an innocent man to be put to death. Esp. if they are a minority.

	24-01-2005 01:04									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident how is putting them in a cage like animals any more civilized?

You're right, in the US the treatment of prisoners is abysmal (not that the situation in Europe is perfect). But that's not an excuse to start murdering them.