24-01-2005 01:12									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa The way I understand this is: If you are citizen of some country you have to obey their laws. So if Arnold has enforced the Death Penalty he violated austrian laws, thus he can be tried here. Even if this would be in accordance with US laws. It's the same with e.g. you traveling to the netherlands and smoking weed. Theoretically your government could arrest you at home, if they have evidence that you went to the netherlands and smoked weed there.

You are incorrect. Most laws prohibit actions, by any citizen of any country, in the territory that has that law. Most laws have no effect outside of the state that has them.

Laws that are imposed against any citizen, anywhere, doing certain things (like some countries have passed laws regarding child sex tourism) are a very different matter.

There is also the small matter of violating the sovereignty of other states by enforcing your laws on citizens in their country.

What would you be saying if the Saudis punished Saudi women who travelled to Austria and took off their head coverings, or any Saudi who travelled to Austria and got drunk?

	24-01-2005 01:19									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Stripping someone of his only nationality is a different matter though (there are international treaties dealing with that), but that's not the case here.

I didn't think those treaties allowed taking away the citizenship of birth. No matter what, your 'own people' have to take you.

	24-01-2005 01:26									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa A+ for your german Ted

	24-01-2005 02:07									#64
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5 of the world's 6 safest cities are in Europe

1. Luxembourg
2. Helsinki - Geneva - Zurich - Berne - Singapore

these cities are 26% safer than New York, the city that all others are ranked against.

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cach...2&hl=en&start=8

furthermore, 3 of the top 6 are in switzerland, one of the worlds most heavily armed citizenry. For example, Geneva has 300,000 handguns and 400,000 people. In addition, every adult male has an assualt rifle with ammunition clips in their closet.

	24-01-2005 02:41									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia 5 of the world's 6 safest cities are in Europe 1. Luxembourg 2. Helsinki - Geneva - Zurich - Berne - Singapore these cities are 26% safer than New York, the city that all others are ranked against. http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cach...2&hl=en&start=8[/url] furthermore, 3 of the top 6 are in switzerland, one of the worlds most heavily armed citizenry. For example, Geneva has 300,000 handguns and 400,000 people. In addition, every adult male has an assualt rifle with ammunition clips in their closet.

it's culture. how many times do I have to say it. the amount of guns makes no difference. Canada also has plenty of guns from what I understand.

americans are a violent, bloodthirsty people. I'm not sure what the answer is. Forcibly removing guns is perhaps the only way. but there would be certain side effects to that of course.

	24-01-2005 02:41									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia furthermore, 3 of the top 6 are in switzerland, one of the worlds most heavily armed citizenry. For example, Geneva has 300,000 handguns and 400,000 people. In addition, every adult male has an assualt rifle with ammunition clips in their closet.

Different culture.

	24-01-2005 03:02									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa OMG the US in the line with the axis of evil! We shall declare war immediately!

	24-01-2005 04:27									#68
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quote: it's culture. how many times do I have to say it. the amount of guns makes no difference. Canada also has plenty of guns from what I understand. americans are a violent, bloodthirsty people. I'm not sure what the answer is. Forcibly removing guns is perhaps the only way. but there would be certain side effects to that of course.

its also the inner city culture/ poverty. Inner city african americans have less guns than rural african americans, yet they have a murder rate 9 times that of rural african americans.

	24-01-2005 05:54									#69
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither What would you be saying if the Saudis punished Saudi women who travelled to Austria and took off their head coverings, or any Saudi who travelled to Austria and got drunk?

What would I say, hmm: Hey women, you can stay here with me

I am a friend of Ted Striker !




Nice threadjack btw.

	24-01-2005 06:23									#70
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Why do any of the Americans in this thread care if Ahnold has his Austrian citizenship revoked? Stop yapping and accept the fact most other rich and advanced states have outlawed the DP already-sheesh.

Whinners.

	24-01-2005 06:31									#71
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no I find it funny most on the left complain that mexican should be allowed to have dual citizenship, but in this case they don't think dual citizenship is appropiate.

	24-01-2005 06:40									#72
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What are you talking about?

A state has the power to revoke anyones citizenship at any point as long as they follow the law of such an action. Arnie is already an American citizen, hence it would not affect him at all.

Hence, WHO CARES? Let the Austrains do as they please- its not like Ahnold will be left stateless if this occured.

	24-01-2005 10:57									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa Nice threadjack btw.

It's not a threadjack. It's exactly the principle that applies to the situation.

Is the Austrian law re executions extraterritorial or not?

If it is, you just might have a problem with the governments of those other territories.

If it isn't, then you're just being silly because Austria has no law that applies.

	24-01-2005 10:59									#74
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quote: Originally posted by GePap What are you talking about? A state has the power to revoke anyones citizenship at any point as long as they follow the law of such an action. Arnie is already an American citizen, hence it would not affect him at all. Hence, WHO CARES? Let the Austrains do as they please- its not like Ahnold will be left stateless if this occured.

There are international treaties covering it, actually, so it is not just Austria's call. It is thought not a good thing to leave a person with no state.

I would suppose the governments who got together and came up with a treaty on citizenship would care.

	24-01-2005 11:01									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia 5 of the world's 6 safest cities are in Europe 1. Luxembourg 2. Helsinki - Geneva - Zurich - Berne - Singapore these cities are 26% safer than New York, the city that all others are ranked against.

26%? Wow. When did things go to hell over there?

	24-01-2005 12:35									#76
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Incidently, the Austrian Greens should read this

http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/w2crs.htm

Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness, 989 U.N.T.S. 175, entered into force Dec. 13, 1975.

Article 9
A Contracting State may not deprive any person or group of persons of their nationality on racial, ethnic, religious or political grounds.

The UN is listened to in Austria, yes?

	24-01-2005 15:07									#77
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notyoueither: there are two different stories.
a.) You just have one nationality
b.) You have more than one nationality

I guess you cannot easily deprive blabla in case a. Where in case b, he wouldn't be left completely without nationality.

But anyway, try to make up a case that does NOT fit into racial, ethnic, religious or political grounds!

The only thing that I can think of is a person who'd always cut himself with his kitchen knife and the government says they no longer want him, because he would not take much care.



Be careful next time you cut onions
Your government might be just behind you

quote: It's not a threadjack.

I was referring to this safest city and death penalty and gun laws....

	24-01-2005 19:44									#78
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Ahnold is a dual citizen- at least on the US side, as it has already been noted he probably should have renounced his Austrian citizenship, and Austria may have laws against its citizens either being officials in a foreign government, or helping to partake in an act considered criminal in the EU (the DP)- so I am sure Austria has the reasons to deny him citizenship, plus of course he will not be left stateless, so its not like it matters.

	24-01-2005 21:33									#79
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These qualify as great final words on a topic where too much words have been wasted already

	24-01-2005 21:34									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Why, yes. In my book, government-sanctioned murder ranks higher than murder on personal grounds. In one case one man takes another man's life, in the other an entire society participates in the act.

The man has commited no crime yet you want to punish him because of his politics. What does that say about you? As for the morality of the death penality; we've had numerous threads about it here and tons of people have shown studies that it does act as a deterent. Even if you don't like it you have admite that it works.

	25-01-2005 00:56									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The man has commited no crime yet you want to punish him because of his politics. What does that say about you? As for the morality of the death penality; we've had numerous threads about it here and tons of people have shown studies that it does act as a deterent. Even if you don't like it you have admite that it works.

Given that there are studies showing no deterent effect, this is a rather lofty aim.

Just match the states with highest crime rates to those with the DP- if the Dp were much of a deterent, then DP states, speically Texas and Florida and the ones most eager to execute should have the lowest murder rates. Not so.

As for your claim that this is about "political opinions", the issue is being a member of a government which has the DP while still a citizen of a member of the EU, which has banned the DP. It is not only then a "political opinion" issue.

	25-01-2005 01:26									#82
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I don't think anyone should have dual citizenship anyway, so meh.

	25-01-2005 01:51									#83
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quote: As for your claim that this is about "political opinions", the issue is being a member of a government which has the DP while still a citizen of a member of the EU, which has banned the DP. It is not only then a "political opinion" issue.

What about states like Netherlands that have decriminalized some drugs, while the US has them criminalized? Is that more than a 'political opinion' for a dual citizen of both states?

	25-01-2005 02:14									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui What about states like Netherlands that have decriminalized some drugs, while the US has them criminalized? Is that more than a 'political opinion' for a dual citizen of both states?

What are you talking about?

I am sure a US citizen can't be an officer in a foreign government, so said person would have to renounce their US citizenship anyways. Besides, what could a Dutch official of US citizenship DO that would break the law of the US? There is no law that says people MUST prosecute a crime anyways, since the legislature makes the laws.

So there isn't even a possible situation in which a simular situation could occur.

	25-01-2005 02:29									#85
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You can join the American military as a non-citizen, should we revoke their original citizenship for holding a government post?

	25-01-2005 02:30									#86
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quote: Besides, what could a Dutch official of US citizenship DO that would break the law of the US?

And what has Arnold done that has broken the law of Austria or the EU? He did not preside over an execution in the EU. And simply being a citizen does not mean he is subject to the law of Austria when not there, or else the US could prosecute citizens for using illegal drugs in states that allow them.

	25-01-2005 02:49									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos You can join the American military as a non-citizen, should we revoke their original citizenship for holding a government post?

Well, shouldn't they? the point of revoking citizenship is supposedly to remove any obligation a US employee would have to a foreign state that might intervene with their duties to the US-if a US citizen becomes a solider of another state, they lose their citizenship. maybe the US shouldn't be letting non-citizens into the Army? But then, its the other state that has to decide what to do with their citizens.

	25-01-2005 02:51									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Besides, what could a Dutch official of US citizenship DO that would break the law of the US? And what has Arnold done that has broken the law of Austria or the EU? He did not preside over an execution in the EU. And simply being a citizen does not mean he is subject to the law of Austria when not there, or else the US could prosecute citizens for using illegal drugs in states that allow them.

Well, Arnold is the Chief executive of a state that has practices banned in the EU-that makes it different than just being a citizen of another state- that is FAR different from a regular citizen being responsible to local laws of the land (the US can;t persecute drug use in Amsterdam, since Dutch law is in force in the Netherlands.

	25-01-2005 02:55									#89
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quote: Well, Arnold is the Chief executive of a state that has practices banned in the EU-that makes it different than just being a citizen of another state

Why? This isn't a Parliamentary system. He did not pass the law himself (or had anything to do with it, frankly).

	25-01-2005 03:03									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Why? This isn't a Parliamentary system. He did not pass the law himself (or had anything to do with it, frankly).

But he has the power to stop it on an individual basis, by pardoning each one as they come up, or to ask for a moratorium like Ryan did.

Beyond even that, the point of an executive is to enforce the law, hence even if he did not write it, he is in charge of carrying it out-hence he is part of the system. The EU or any EU member has every right to say its citizens can't be executives in a state that carries out a practice they have banned.