25-01-2005 03:37									#1
	AU506: The Power Early Warfare - Pregame Discussion Put an end to popups!

From the results of this poll, it's clear that there is interest in a "Power of Early Warfare" course, so with Lord Nuclear's approval, that's what we're going to do for AU506. The same poll also made clear that there are about half as many lurkers in AU as players (confirming a suspicion of mine); I hope you guys are enjoying the show!

It's standard practice to release each new course on either a Thursday or Friday, just in time for the weekend. However, I completed the scenario for this course early, and I figure there's no harm in opening an unoffical pregame discussion thread in order to whet some appetites.

I'll include a complete course description in the download thread later on this week. For now:

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The Power of Early Warfare

Purpose: To demonstrate the power of early warfare.

Map Size: Small
Land Form: Pangea
Water Coverage: 60%
Climate and Temperature: ?
Barbarians: Raging

Player Civ: Zulu (Expansionist, Militaristic)

Opponents: 7

The Vile Aztecs
The Evil Babylonians
The Loathsome Chinese
The Wicked French
The Insane Indians
The Sinful Mayans
The Vicious Mongols

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Discuss!

Attachment: early warfare.jpg
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	25-01-2005 08:35									#2
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If there is any source of water nearby to irrigate all those games, the starting location is freaking great. I would say, ideal! No Greeks, Romans, or Carthagian is a good news, and only one scientific civ.

Too bad the screenshot is reduced, so there are not much of "gaze through the fog".

I would move the scout 62 and worker 9 to see things around just in case, but I doubt that move of the settler will be of any use.

Not sure about build order, definetly need one more scout, than probably barrack (to accomodate the chop), than Archers. As population becomes available another settler (need 2 city at least for unit support). Then keep finger crossed for free settlers/techs.

	25-01-2005 11:40									#3
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Rivers??!!

	25-01-2005 12:19									#4
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None visible.

	25-01-2005 19:44									#5
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I see just a hint of river to the east of the Oasis, so there must be flood plains near by as well

	25-01-2005 20:27									#6
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quote: Originally posted by PeaSoup I see just a hint of river to the east of the Oasis, so there must be flood plains near by as well

Looks more like an inland lake to me.

	25-01-2005 20:31									#7
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Moving the Scout (6-2) is sufficent.
Your not going to want to plant a city on either game in any case because it would cause the food bonus to be lost.

In place does seem to kill the hill, but considering the mountains and desert and not being agricultural, wouldn't be terriable. And is that a resource I see underneath the scout?

	25-01-2005 20:41									#8
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I would right-click to see if they're FPs or Desert, but I think jon is right; it's an inland lake.

	26-01-2005 00:25									#9
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Come to think of it, it's probably very estinatal to found a city right there in place. Who knows if there is a fresh water source west of the hills?

I'm thinking on the first move:

found in place, start resseraching CB so that if a goody hut is discovered giving a tech it will give a more expensive tech than CB, and start construction of a scout

Scout : 6-2. Not sure which direction to explore afterwards yet.

Worker : Road to 6-6. Then form the irrigation chain back to capital. Now it's all set for chopping forest / game and irrigating them.

Build Queue: After Scout, Warrior, Granery, Settler, Baracks, Settler, Imp, Settler, Imp, Settler, Imp.

Edit:fix directionly challenged Scout
Edit: add tenative build queue

Last edited by joncnunn on 26-01-2005 at 22:27

	26-01-2005 00:26									#10
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And where's the save?

	26-01-2005 00:53									#11
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn And where's the save?

I'll have everything ready by Thursday night.

Will you participate this time, joncnunn?

	26-01-2005 00:59									#12
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Scout : 6-4

Otherwise I agree.

	26-01-2005 01:19									#13
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Fixed the directionarly challenged scout in my post.

quote: Originally posted by Theseus Otherwise I agree.

	26-01-2005 01:26									#14
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Huum, sure, why not, my own current SP game has been effectively over for days, just a matter of discovering the Ship Ship part techs and building it. And a large stack of Tanks is ready if my southern neighbor loses his mind.

quote: Originally posted by Dominae I'll have everything ready by Thursday night. Will you participate this time, joncnunn?

	26-01-2005 01:36									#15
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Anyone care to post a tentaive build queue? What do you expect the first 40 turns to be like? What will the first few build items in your capital be? What tech will you go for first? Do you have any set plans regarding foreign policy? How are you anticipating this game will play out? Discuss!

	26-01-2005 03:39									#16
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Hmmm.... the big questions for me are:

Research BW or trade for it?

Philo/Repub Beeline or Monarchy?

Impi-triggered Despotic GA for really early warfare, or try to trade for Horses instead, later pairing them?

Granaries? (methinks Dom might be teaching ole Theseus a lesson... )

How many Scouts? 3 more seem advisable given the central start.

	26-01-2005 04:33									#17
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I like it so far. When the DAR threads are started, would it be possible to have links to the AU Course in the HoF? And could I have the starting picture resized to something like 250x250? Thanks.


Anyway, I have some good news. I'm getting rid of my Macintosh, and I should be getting a new PC very shortly, which means that I am going to be able to have a much more active role in the AU, and participating in more discussions. YAY!

	26-01-2005 06:43									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear Anyway, I have some good news. I'm getting rid of my Macintosh, and I should be getting a new PC very shortly, which means that I am going to be able to have a much more active role in the AU, and participating in more discussions. YAY!

	26-01-2005 14:26									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Anyone care to post a tentaive build queue? What do you expect the first 40 turns to be like? What will the first few build items in your capital be? What tech will you go for first? Do you have any set plans regarding foreign policy? How are you anticipating this game will play out? Discuss!

Mmm... my building queue? Let's do it my PP way...

Granary (with forest help), then scout, warrior (for MP), barracks, 2nd worker, 2nd warrior (for MP), archers until size 5, then settler/archers combo.

2nd city: worker, barracks, archers, archers, archers, archers and a...

Diplo? with 6+ archers the world is yours....

Techs? The bronze/iron road is quite long and knowing Dominae, the only iron is in some other civs' territory anyway...

I'll probably go for writing/philosophy to get a free tech. Can usually trade those techs quite well and hope to get alphabet with early trading (or some archers' help).

All in all, my expansion will be slow at first, since I won't build my second city for quite a while, but then I'll have a settler every 4/5 turns and military enough to rein in my adversary. Workers (enemy ones, that is) should not be a problem either

	26-01-2005 19:06									#20
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i would do a scout first, then granary with a chop.

since we are zulu i would try for monarchy first.
possible tech order: pottery, wheel or wc, cebu, myst, politheism and monarchy.

wheel is better for the extra movement, while wc is a pre for monarchy.

The thing I hate the most about expansionic is the rgn: if u get settlers or the techs from the huts, its a win, if u get maps, then it will be hard.

I don't like despotic golden ages, so no impis for me until after monarchy. It will also be the start for the war.

I'm looking forward to play on a small map, never done that before.

Greetz

	26-01-2005 19:28									#21
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The only thing that I could say is that I want to know where the nearest available source of fresh water is. We have a four turn setler pump sitting there, ready to be used, but we need to chop the game forests and irrigate, as well as mine the oasis or the bonus grassland (me thinks tha bonus grassland. It's nearer, but there looks like there is water near the oasis).


I reckon that scout/worker/scout/granary might be doable, but I want to keep an eye out for goody huts. I free settler would probably make me change my mind and archer rush someone. A longer term start would be to build up chariots and upgrade to horses, while trying to get to Monarchy.


First moves:
1) Scout 62, worker 8(maybe 7), settle unless something good appears.

2) scout 96, worker chop (build scout).


------

My personal view of early warfare is that it is very useful if it can be pulled of correctly, and can be great if you can get a few towns in a peace treaty. I also hate a despotic GAs, and that is why I want to get Monarchy. I would rather have chariots, and upgrade them, so that my SoD can move quickly later on in the game. The warfare may not be as early, but it is still in the anchient age, is it not?

	26-01-2005 19:35									#22
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quote: Originally posted by -SafaN- since we are zulu i would try for monarchy first. possible tech order: pottery, wheel or wc, cebu, myst, politheism and monarchy.

You're in luck! As the Zulu you start with both Pottery and Warrior Code.

	26-01-2005 19:40									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Krill I reckon that scout/worker/scout/granary might be doable, but I want to keep an eye out for goody huts.

If your initial Worker goes for a Forest Chop, your capital will produce 25 Shields in 5 turns, which is not enough time for the growth needed for a second Worker. Even without the chop, you produce a second Scout in 4 turns and a Worker 4 turns after that, for a total of 8<10 turns.

	26-01-2005 20:07									#24
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Sorry, I should have pointed out that chopping was dependant on what I saw. I might just road the tile and be done with it, leaving the chop till later. Or I could use a chop to speed a second scout, then slow the production of a second worker...etc

	26-01-2005 22:31									#25
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Adding my build queue to the post. My builds and worker moves are timed for chops with the Granery.

My tech reserach (post CB to ensure NOT getting that cheap one via GH) depends upon what the first goody hut found reveals. I'm hoping for a free settler.

	27-01-2005 01:06									#26
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Ok my opening moves and predictions (corrected)

Scout 6-6 (I want to be absolutely sure about that coast / inland-lake)

* if it is lake then worker goes 6-9 (Osis is adjusten to this "lake" right? It is hard as hell to tell tiles in this graphic set under reduction) and road/irrigate (to use this tile for turns when 2 shields from game-forest is not needed, I will re-mine Oasis later)

* if it is not lake then worker goes 8 and start chop/mine/road (unless I see fresh water source northward) and do so with all games

Build orders are the same regardless lake or not Scout / Barrack / Archers untill enough population for settler is reached. I might insert scout or warrior depending how the chops agree with Archers to maximize chop effects. I do not plan for granary until maybe 2 settler is done (map is crowded), neither I will build a worker before the first settler to get the second city ASAP for unit support.

By the time I have 4 archers I hope scout(s) will find somebody to hit.

I will research CB "full-speed" at worst I will trade for it with reduced price. BW is either from hut or from trade (luckly extort it in peace treaty). Consequent research will depend on what I gets in huts/trade/extortions. Since it is small pangea with 1 more expanist and 1 semi-expansionis (Aztecs). I doubt that I can avoid GA in despotism, so "brace for impact": too little huts to pop for 50-turns alphabet in hopes for early monarchy.

I hope I can Archer rush the first AI without impies and avoid ultra-eraly GA.

My first 2 cities after worker or 2 will go for barrack and archers/impies until they are ready for another settler/worker as population/shields/"need" dictates. Granaries will be built during GA when I hit 8-9 shields per city (no use for 20 shield units)

I aim for Feudalism since I expect little or no core cities with fresh waters, so I probably might skip Phiposophy beeline unless I get Math early, so I can pick Construction or Currency as free tech.

Since it is pangea, the game will be "ugly" and barbaric: mostly barracks/units with temples/colloseum (if this version with militaristic flag on colloseums), some core cities will gets markets and maybe even aqueducts and kill, kill, kill... I doubt that anything else except "constant" warfare is feasable. The continent setup would be much better because after several oscilating wars settling down could have been an option worth of consideration.

	27-01-2005 01:15									#27
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Just to let you know that on Emperor level and above, goodies huts will give you more barbs than techs. This is why I'm not in favor of too many scouts. Once they make contact with other civs, they are basically useless. You can learn about the surrounding lands by sending warriors/settlers teams (plus some isolated archer).

This is why I favor an early 'powering up' of your capital. A second worker is more useful once your city has a size of 3-4, since a worker when you're size 3 drops you back to not that many shields and you won't have enough tiles irrigated to be back to a decent size for a while.

Ah well, as in chess, there are as many openings as players. Good to know Civ3 is still not 'standarized' game...

	27-01-2005 01:27									#28
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Zulu are expansionis: so no barbarians from hut ever!

Beside, for some reason powering up my capital on demigod (the level I plan on using) does not work for me. I end up boxed-in even on standard map with normal number of opponents. However, described above agressive military opening works as charm on standard map with 7 opponents provided I am militaristic, so it must work on small with 7 too: easier to reach your enemies, so I will hit them earlier.

	27-01-2005 01:29									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Mountain Sage Just to let you know that on Emperor level and above, goodies huts will give you more barbs than techs. This is why I'm not in favor of too many scouts. Once they make contact with other civs, they are basically useless.

Zulus -> Expanionist -> NO BARBS poping goody huts

	27-01-2005 01:33									#30
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The settler builds I placed in my queue were to increase unit support enough to go after the nearest AI.

Distance will determine if it's straight imps or Horsemen/Imp combos.