08-03-2005 11:29									#181
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Once we do in fact decide to go after ND, if we do, can we not tell GoW that we will not hold any land on Bob? We could even offer to gift cities to GoW, rather than abandon them. This is just an attempt to keep them out of attacking us as they should have no real interest in going to war against us at that point. They have to know that our doing damage to ND is good for them. I am not sure of the tipping point, but if I were in their shoes, I would have to think very hard about jumping in on ND. IF we hit ND and do very limited damage, ND is still poised to win. If GOW comes in and we both cripple ND, then GoW is in the cat bird seat.

Bingo.

	08-03-2005 11:37									#182
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Aeson That's not to say we will abandon Lego to ND. We still consider that source of Uranium as in our territory. If ND is going to try to force GS into irrellevency, which is exactly what they are doing right now, they will have to go through all of Stormia to do it. They saw some open cities and took them, saw an undefended Uranium source and took it, without considering that by doing so the only way GS can continue to be relevent in this game is to go through them now.

Tell GoW that ND likely just cost themselves the game. Now sit down, shut up, and help us land victory in GoWs lap. Oh, and be so inclined to notice when the dagger should go in, please.

	08-03-2005 11:43									#183
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Aeson quote: No, we do not have an MPP though technically the old "Bob is for Bobians" treaty is still in effect but of course that would not be invoked unless for example GS sneak attacked ND by invading them (Lego-style). If you start a war with ND on Legoland or at sea or whatever, that does not constitute a "threat to Bob" and thus we don't have to intervene. No need for us to reply to this. It can only get us into trouble to address the issue further. We asked, they answered, end of discussion.

I can't agree with you there. If we leave it hanging, we appear guilty. If we say something along the lines of 'well, what about bombing ND as that might be on the menu?' it diverts attention from invading, while still being GS. I simply can't see MZ thinking we're going for Legoland only, and for the rest only defending our own territory. By mentioning the bombing, we appear as we won't risk invasion.

quote: quote: Regarding treaties, to be honest, GoW doesn't really give a crap if GS or ND break treaties between each other. It's so late in the game that those issues are hardly of interest to us. If you attack ND or whatever, we won't hold it against you nor will we stop dealing with you or otherwise, in short, no diplomatic penalty. And I doubt Vox or RP would care either. For all I care, only treaties regarding ourselves actually concern us. ND broke a treaty by invading RP's holdings, GS breaking a treaty to counter that action isn't betrayal, it's payback. No need for us to replay to this either.

Not strictly speaking, but he thinks we're trying to apologize for breaking a treaty, while we were trying to explain one of the reasons why we let ND slip by. It's not going to gain us a huge amount, but maybe lets MZ understand the situation a little better. And be more wary of ND. Paranoia between the Bobians is good atm.

quote: They saw some open cities and took them, saw an undefended Uranium source and took it, without considering that by doing so the only way GS can continue to be relevent in this game is to go through them now.

maybe a bit too heavy, if you ask me. This reeks of propaganda before invading a country... which may be my non-English interpretation of it again.

DeepO

	08-03-2005 12:19									#184
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Evaluate depreciation. Do 2 civs have it?

It depreciated by 1/5th (30 to 24 turns at 20%), meaning only one civ has it.

ND has been working on Rocketry since they got into the Modern Era, GoW was working on Fission until Vox got it as their free tech. We got Fission from Vox on 1290AD (turn 248), at which time we could trade it to ND and GoW, meaning they didn't have it.

The team which finished Rocketry did so on their turn 252. In our deal with ND they said 1320AD (turn 254) was when they would be able to finish. From the diplo log it sounds like ND got Radio on turn 242, which means ND had 10 turns to get Rocketry. GoW would have to be at 4 turn research to get it at the same time. When we spied into ND cities they were at 90% research each time. No way GoW is at 4 turn research while ND takes 10 turns at 90%.

Now that the price is 80%, GoW is probably 3-5 turns from being able to finish Rocketry if they are researching it.

	08-03-2005 12:59									#185
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: I can't agree with you there. If we leave it hanging, we appear guilty. If we say something along the lines of 'well, what about bombing ND as that might be on the menu?' it diverts attention from invading, while still being GS. I simply can't see MZ thinking we're going for Legoland only, and for the rest only defending our own territory. By mentioning the bombing, we appear as we won't risk invasion.

How is it still left hanging? We asked whether GoW and ND had a MPP. They answered that technically, only if GS were to invade Bob would that trigger a response from GoW. That pretty much answers our question, and GoW didn't respond with any question of their own.

Generally a guilty conscience offers more information than it should. If we don't respond to this point it can mean many things. That it's understood, that we don't see it as important, that we simply forgot about it, GoW could simply forget it was an issue themselves, or yes, that we might be hiding something. If we bring up another question related to it though, we're looking more interested.

GoW was along for the Lego invasion. If GS or GoW had tried alone, Lego would have simply laughed at the attempt and sunk/killed everything we sent. GoW could have done some Carrier based bombing for a short time, but Lego would have quickly been able to focus their fleet and build enough Fighters to end that. ND offers much worse odds as they have MI and far more Tanks, while we have 1 Marine and only half the Transports we sent at Lego.

quote: Not strictly speaking, but he thinks we're trying to apologize for breaking a treaty, while we were trying to explain one of the reasons why we let ND slip by. It's not going to gain us a huge amount, but maybe lets MZ understand the situation a little better. And be more wary of ND. Paranoia between the Bobians is good atm.

We don't have to convince GoW that ND broke a treaty. MZ already stated that ND did. Better than any agreement between GS and ND for our point, because the treaty ND broke was between GS and GoW. Not only is it obvious to GoW, but it reflects on them. Whereas anything between GS and ND is hearsay.

It's probably good that we came off as whining. To me MZ's response on this issue reads, "Stop whining about treaties, we don't care." Let's leave it at that.

quote: maybe a bit too heavy, if you ask me. This reeks of propaganda before invading a country... which may be my non-English interpretation of it again.

We are invading a country. ND's Lego holdings. We have to sell that idea.

Basically, we've asked for Uranium. We play Uranium up as the end all be all of this game. We invade ND on Lego to reclaim our Uranium. Then the next turn we say, "Screw Uranium, bob for bob, and our chances to win this game" and do as much damage to ND as we possibly can. Right?

And if it happens we can push ND off Lego, reclaiming our Uranium, and if we investigate the ND cities we have targetted and see tons of MI we can't get through... well maybe then we sail back home and play on with our Uranium.

	08-03-2005 22:43									#186
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Ummm, maybe I am just not following here, but from the correctly posted battle report, ND took down TEN TOWNS??!!

That is far from an 'impolite' capture/denial of a uranium source, or breach of a tech agreement.

That is cause for armageddon.

	08-03-2005 22:50									#187
	Tired of ads?

Yah, and it seems that we are currently planning on how to bring all of it to bear on ND... was hoping that we would have had at least ne twn left. and we do.


Just wondering, but would it be possible for RP to capture our coasatal town on norhtern Lego this turn? If they can, I can think of a away of pissing ND off very quickly. They would have to capture our towns on lego, add workers to them and conscript, and start pillaging, or sit on a mountain some where. They could offer the cities back to us, along with peace, and Gold etc...

	09-03-2005 14:38									#188
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With the difference of opinion on what to say to GoW, I hadn't put another draft together so far. I'll try to work on it tonight.

	10-03-2005 03:48									#189
	Remove this text

I'm wondering if we work on this angle :

quote: MZ: What I did tell ND is that we do not look favorably to them keeping cities on GS's half after next turn since that would make US look bad because we made the treaty and allowing our client to violate it is akin to us violating it first hand. Have you guys talked to them at all?

1. ND pinched the Uranium before we had a chance to settle it.

2. If ND holding cities on our side is a no-no for GoW, then why is holding Uranium on our side OK?

MZ is accepting some responsibility here, albeit inconsistently applied. Can we argue that they should extend their disapproval of ND keeping cities to opposing the whole occupation? GoW has basically stuffed us by letting ND onto Lego and MZ kinda admits it. We could put that to the test by asking them to ask ND off our land (including the uranium), on the grounds that "allowing our client to violate it is akin to us violating it first hand".

If MZ refuses, he is flushed out in the open as on ND's side and we know the score, and can choose which team we allow to win the game as we go out in flames.

If ND withdraw we can reclaim our uranium and stay relevant. (Unless we're really up for a war with ND now.)

	10-03-2005 03:51									#190
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Do we also want to still try and get Rocketry out of ND? How about a message to them asking for it, in accordance with the agreement?

	10-03-2005 04:07									#191
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Another approach, similar to suggestions above, could be to march right in and offer GoW a deal.

#1 GoW
#2 GS
#3 ND

Offer them whatever they want to give themselves checkmate after disposing of ND and we can even duke it out for show against the odds if anyone can be bothered. By just attacking ND we're more likely to end up #3 than #2. If things go badly enough we could even hand them domination if we lose Stormia.

ND have played well, to be fair, but they've also had it too easy to deserve victory. No real challenges. Bad RNG and we could hand it to them on a plate. At least GoW have been an ally, and I always reckoned that teaming up with one of our Bobian War foe to take revenge on the other two was our best bet.

You never know, if it's just us & GoW left they might even fancy an equal fight.

	10-03-2005 04:56									#192
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I think that whatever else we say, we should clarify to GoW that ND owes us Rocketry. Combined with ND's proxy violation of the GS-GoW Legoland division, they have broken two treaties. It can do no harm to put that on record, especially as I didn't make it fully clear in the earlier message.

	10-03-2005 05:12									#193
	Increase the size of your Attachments

A less extreme alliance with GoW would be to offer them protection on Bob from ND, and go public with it. This would strengthen their position over ND, which could help us if we wanted GoW to oppose ND's occupation of western Legoland.

	10-03-2005 05:55									#194
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Some things are maybe still up for discussion, but based on Aeson's post and the general weight of comments here's another draft. More contentious aspects can wait for a later message.

quote: Regarding the luxuries, we thank you, and on the Uranium trade we understand your position. Basically ND stole our Uranium the turn they got their cites and before we had a chance to settle the spot. They also owe us Rocketry, and have ignored all diplomatic requests to cease their trespass or explain their actions. ND has a crossing to Lego that requires 1/3rd the Transports that ours requires. So with current Transport numbers they can put over 3 times the number of units on Lego that we can on any given turn. To offset this, we'd have to leave Stormia nearly empty, which is something we can't do. Hence our Uranium supply was always at the mercy of ND. That's not to say we will abandon Lego to ND. We still consider that source of Uranium as in our territory. If ND wishes to force GS into irrelevancy, as it is doing, they will have to go through all of Stormia to do it. They saw some open cities and took them, saw an undefended Uranium source and took it, without considering that by doing so the only way GS can continue to be relevant in this game is to go through them now. Regards, etc

	10-03-2005 16:31									#195
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Sent.

	11-03-2005 21:43									#196
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I'm sorry I went missing for a couple of days, I simply didn't have time to log on. I'll try to catch up, but maybe only tomorrow, or tonight.

Please don't wait for me, as I predicted a few months ago I can't come in every day anymore. That doesn't mean I don't care, but I need to prioritize other stuff first

DeepO

	15-03-2005 22:24									#197
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I've been thinking of ways to increase our chances of breaking through using as few marines as possible. I have come up with a couple of solutions, but ths is the only feasible one.


When we sell Mini, we ask GoW to place arties (as many as possible) right next to New Mavsu the turn that we invade, (as they are after ND and before us in the turn order), on the coast. I've been thinking of a number around 20 (arbitrary, I know, but at least 10, preferably 20+, and maybe we could give them ours to add to that number.). When we invade, we expend one marine capturin those arties. Those arties pound New Mavsu, until we have redlined inf, and the city is below 6 pop (I think that NM is on a river, and therefore can be boosted in pop in a single turn, at any time). We hit NM, and use any left over arties to help pound the metroes, because I do't want to be facing 60+ MI, in metros, forted, with ~50 tanks.


I just really don't like those odds...


This is my favourite idea, even though it requires that we tell GW what we are up to, Which it seems some people don't want to do.

What do you lot think?

	16-03-2005 03:50									#198
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

ND will know that the Artillery had to have come from GoW. GoW won't go for it unless they want to go to war with ND, in which case we could come up with something better.

Our only shot to break through on our own is to catch ND with numbers like they had in Neu Mavsu last turn. If we tell GoW what we are planning, then that decreases the odds that we will have suprise on our side. If ND spots us, gets wind of our plans through GoW, or guesses what is coming and piles 20 units into each of the coastal cities we can hit, no amount of bombardment is going to allow us to break through.