26-01-2005 20:34									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Krill About GoW: what do people think about trying to get MZ onto our side by pointing out that it would not reflect well on us if ND/GWT won both the ISDG and PTWDG...

Yes, this has been mentioned. We might well ask whether GoW have a plan to stop ND rubbing Apolyton's nose in it again.

	26-01-2005 20:51									#92
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I think ND have had this game too easy. An easy Bobian war (superior units, land, resources and supply capability) - exploiting GAUL for cheap tech, free land off GoW on Lego - getting Lego's vote, probably having GoW's help in attacking GS.

I'd be quite disappointed in MZ if he helps ND win - though having said that I'd also want GoW to lose as a punishment for backstabbing us!

	26-01-2005 21:50									#93
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO I don't think so, T. If you've got a lux deal with an AI, and than somehow get the lux yourself, the deal cancels as well. There are exceptions, e.g. a lux for lux deal will keep their end of the bargain (so if you give ivory for silks, they will still receive silks but don't give ivory anymore), while a lux for gpt deal cancels... more than once did this create problems for me, where a deal was cancelled and I got a bad rep with the AIs. You don't get a rep-hit if you e.g. received a lux for a tech. Cancelling that deal doesn't cost the AI anything so they won't mind. It may depend on your installation, but in PTWDG this happens for sure. It's because this happens so seldomly that we didn't think about it before it happened... in general you don't go around in SP giving out rubber you receive from a civ, just moments before settling our own rubber resource DeepO

Hmmm... I don't think so... I specifically remember a lux/gpt deal that I had to cancel within the last few months. An AU game, I think, but I'd be loathe to try to find the specific instance.

Regardless; I think that querying GoW re rubber for RP will be... interesting.

	27-01-2005 02:54									#94
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quote: What do you guys think of building a fortress 2 of whirlwind, and sticking 5 MI in it? It is the only place where ND can land in one turn, and those 5 MI could hopefully make ND think about attacking one of out coastal cities, which will have a lot higher defense (100% "Kitty" shelters, 50% city size (and I'm not sure about which cirties have walls...).

I think there is a Fortress already there. It does need to be manned more heavily as I only had 1 MI there this turn. There are a couple other spots that aren't 1 turn safe yet either, but due to our fleet not being built back up to par. That should be taken care of next turn.

	27-01-2005 05:15									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Hmmm... I don't think so... I specifically remember a lux/gpt deal that I had to cancel within the last few months. An AU game, I think, but I'd be loathe to try to find the specific instance.

Strange. Now, we can't check this with GoW, because if we enter the active deals screen, the game crashes. We certainly only have 1 source right now, so it's safe to assume that if we give that to RP, we would not have one ourselves.

quote: Regardless; I think that querying GoW re rubber for RP will be... interesting.

Indeed. Maybe we should press on this, it would be best to ask this before we play our next turn. If we got confirmation, we could e.g. give the rubber source to RP this turn, and receive rubber from GoW when they are up.

Oh, wait a moment, GoW is before RP. They should give it to RP directly, or we are without rubber for 2 turns instead of 1. That would probably mean we miss a couple of builds.

I wonder what MZ is going to respond

DeepO

	27-01-2005 05:18									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I think there is a Fortress already there.

There was, but when checking last safe, I thought you had cleared it. There is a MI there as it is on an incense.

Aeson, do you have an estimate on when ND would attack? We've got minimum 2 turns, but would they wait for more marines?

DeepO

	27-01-2005 05:22									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus I think ND have had this game too easy. An easy Bobian war (superior units, land, resources and supply capability) - exploiting GAUL for cheap tech, free land off GoW on Lego - getting Lego's vote, probably having GoW's help in attacking GS. I'd be quite disappointed in MZ if he helps ND win - though having said that I'd also want GoW to lose as a punishment for backstabbing us!

hum... this is a bit a split-personality thing, right? I don't think there is a real sense of " 'poly has to win the 'poly PTWDG", it could be an idea but if we really would have gone for that we would have attacked ND instead of Lego. We played the numbers, meaning that Lego was a bigger threat than ND.

Also, if we really want a 'poly team to win, we should aim for harming ND, helping GOW secure a win. If we really are about to die, I could be persuaded for this, but in the mean time I'm still aiming to win ourselves, and let both the Bobians lose, regardless of which site they are from.

You've got to give it to ND: they got so far, because they have played well. They deserve to win just as much as GoW does. Only we deserve it more, of course

DeepO

	27-01-2005 05:35									#98
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BTW, if RP is going to do anything useful with conqs, they also need marines. ND is in between us in turn order, meaning we can't keep a city undefended for RP to land in.

Now, marines can be transported over our RRs in case RP has the transports in place at the precise time. At least that's one thing... but they will need a transport to get them on the other side of Eli, and they need the tech. Plus, it will be highly suspect if they've got spies planted.

DeepO

	27-01-2005 08:31									#99
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With pillaging roads it could work. We'd need to have 4 movement requirement to reach the city by land and 7 movement requirement to reach the city by sea. It could work given all those hills down in the S. Also just a regular landing could work for them. If we do break through, most of ND's forces will be wiped out or intent on destroying our survivors. The units they land from Sea (we have to wait till they are at sea) could be cut off from getting back into the fray or even sunk by us.

If that doesn't work, there's no chance RP can build enough Marines to hope to take out MI defended towns in this timeframe. They'd need 2, maybe 3 Transports full of Marines to take the easiest targets. Thay would need a lot of turns to get those sort of numbers together.

	27-01-2005 12:43									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus Yes, this has been mentioned. We might well ask whether GoW have a plan to stop ND rubbing Apolyton's nose in it again.

Only problem is ND hasn't done any nose rubbing.

They have been a class act in this game and that.

I don't begrudge them winning this one and that. They are obviously very talented.

Let's finish this game with class as well, and not simply gang up on the 'outsiders.' That's so grade school.

	27-01-2005 12:48									#101
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That being said, the map says we should go with GoW to demolish ND. Facts are facts, and both GoW and oursleves stand a better chance of winning if ND suffers an 'accident.'

	27-01-2005 13:47									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson With pillaging roads it could work. We'd need to have 4 movement requirement to reach the city by land and 7 movement requirement to reach the city by sea. It could work given all those hills down in the S. Also just a regular landing could work for them. If we do break through, most of ND's forces will be wiped out or intent on destroying our survivors. The units they land from Sea (we have to wait till they are at sea) could be cut off from getting back into the fray or even sunk by us.

It could work, however it's not exactly easy to do and coordinate. If we need to pillage e.g. 3 RRs, we spend 6 units in doing so (and we don't have a lot of eplorers anymore, right?). The gain from getting RP to land would need to be greater.
However, RP has a very large range, with a unit that can occupy cities. If there is a threat of them landing, ND has to defend all its cities, instead of defending only those we could harm. Which means less units are available for the counter attack. That certainly would be good for us.

Let's just get RP over there asap, they still need several turns before any of this can work. Last time, we planned so long that we forgot to tell them they needed to sail...

quote: If that doesn't work, there's no chance RP can build enough Marines to hope to take out MI defended towns in this timeframe. They'd need 2, maybe 3 Transports full of Marines to take the easiest targets. Thay would need a lot of turns to get those sort of numbers together.

That was the problem I was hinting at, yes. Anything RP can threaten will likely be under threat from us as well. ND would not send just 1 conscript MI in such a city, if they see RP coming it will be heavily guarded.

OTOH, I do prefer they do not spend too many infs/MIs on attacking ND, I prefer these defenders to be in Legoland asap, guarding rubber and uranium.

DeepO

	27-01-2005 15:05									#103
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erhm... GoW is already providing rubber to RP? Strange... at least they are willing to give them more. No proof of imminent invasion

DeepO

	27-01-2005 15:31									#104
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quote: I don't begrudge them winning this one and that. They are obviously very talented.

I'm not saying they haven't played well, but I do think they've had it easy. If they deserve their position then we've made a historical mistake. It should have been GoW & ND knocking Lego out, with us building & waiting in the wings, but by acting like they were happy to let Lego surge ahead and win and by snubbing GAUL at first, we had to roll up our sleeves and do it with GoW ourselves.

Perhaps that was their masterstroke - pretending that they would let Lego win so we had to go and do their work for them while they blackmailed us for cheap tech. In which case we made a strategic error in not calling their bluff and should have carried on ourselves like we were happy to let Lego run away with it. Then ND would have been forced to attack Lego with GoW.

I'm afraid I don't know what 'Grade School' is, and I'd probably rather not know in the context, but it's not unusual for people of any age to not want one team winning everything. Don't you think there's some 'poly pride at stake here NYE?

	27-01-2005 15:48									#105
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CH, they never had the need to go after Lego, they could very well have held back and just build up, afterwards going for space or for us. There was no bluff, IMHO. It was also some kind of deal with GoW: GoW has received a few ND cities, which were at least partially built up. ND has, in comparison, more land, but virgin land which needed to start everything from scratch. It's normal that GoW was prepared for war faster than ND.

And we had no choice. At least we're in 3rd place now, which gives us a small shot at victory. With Lego around, there wouldn't have been any chance...

You are right that for some things, ND had it easier. But for others they didn't. And they did fight for their position, not only with RP, but also with Lux. It's not that they were given their advantage by the RNG like for Lego.

DeepO

	27-01-2005 22:34									#106
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ok, I know this is going off topic, but...

quote: It's not that they were given their advantage by the RNG like for Lego.

1. Lux had no iron
   
2. Lux had no horses
   
3. Lux had no food boni
   
4. Gow had no iron
   
5. ND got a free settler/advanced tribe
   

	28-01-2005 07:23									#107
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You'll get no serious disagreement out of me. I more or less just wanted to point out that ND has not done much gloating or other rubbing of noses. Regardless, I think it makes sense to go for them, so have at 'er.

	28-01-2005 07:28									#108
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Also, although I would not begrudge them winning this game, because they have played their position well, I would still prefer that we ourselves win.

All I ask is that when the history is written, that we may hold our heads up and say we acted because it was the best course of action, not that we acted as part of a mob offended by the success of the outsiders. Does that make sense?

	28-01-2005 07:35									#109
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither All I ask is that when the history is written, that we may hold our heads up and say we acted because it was the best course of action, not that we acted as part of a mob offended by the success of the outsiders. Does that make sense?

Most certainly. And I think that so far, we've got every reason to hold our heads up.

Not only us, by the way, but most, if not all of the other teams as well.

DeepO

	28-01-2005 07:38									#110
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Besides... most of the other people involved in this game, I only learned to know because of interactions here. Togas, MZ, Vondrack, Beta... all were completely unknown before I started in the PTWDG. ND are to me the outsiders because they prefer to keep to themselves, not because they are not part of the regulars at 'poly. Darekill, for instance, was one of the few members I knew before starting the PTWDG.

DeepO

	28-01-2005 10:08									#111
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I prefer to think of them as guests. We people of Poly invited them to participate. I should like them to continue to have a positive impression of our hospitality.

At any rate, perhaps I quibble to much.

	28-01-2005 11:26									#112
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What if ND is just going to invade GOW and is using their transports to circumvent GOw's first line of defense?

	28-01-2005 11:33									#113
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NYE you should know how Americans defer to locals. If you are American, they pull for you, if you are from their state, more so and if you are from their city even more so. Man if you are from their High School, you are in.

You can expect them to lean towards fellow poly members. It stems from growing up rooting for the local teams.

I don't know anything about ND, but I know Vondrack and MZ are solid players and I suspect all the teams have done a very good job playing the game.

It sure was well played from where I sit and the winner will have had to earn it. Of course everyone needs a few breaks.

	28-01-2005 11:36									#114
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quote: Originally posted by alva What if ND is just going to invade GOW and is using their transports to circumvent GOw's first line of defense?

They would be crazy to not at least broach us with the idea and ask us to stay out, if we would not join. They would risk GoW getting us in on their side.

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but GoW must be in good shape now and has a ton of arties and tanks. They got MI from us now as well.

	28-01-2005 12:19									#115
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I agree completely with NYE. If the poly "us" card gets played I would not be on this team from that point on. The game becomes meaningless if that is what decides who has a shot at winning instead of how the teams actually played this game.

	28-01-2005 14:56									#116
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quote: Originally posted by alva What if ND is just going to invade GOW and is using their transports to circumvent GOw's first line of defense?

If that would have been the case, they should have positioned their transports somewhere else. They are now in the city closest to our borders, far from the GoW border.

An idea: we are looking for ways of determining if GoW would come for us too, what if we investigate Port Isolation (the city next to RP)? I don't think that GoW would put all of its invasion force in that city (the screenshots from the buildup of the Lego war showed all their troops neatly stacked in land, where no spy could see them), but only spotting a transport would be highly suspect.

But transports would only be in port isolation if they fear detection by subs. In the Lego buildup, they also had all their ships just outside the closest cities. GoW is better at hiding their intentions than ND.

DeepO

	02-02-2005 03:02									#117
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Oh my. I've missed a few things.

It sure looks like ND is coming for us. Hitting GoW is a possibility too, of course, but I'm dubious.

If I'm MZ, I'd be happy to see ND take a shot at us, while I waited a turn or two and took my shot at ND.

Did we ever discuss any sort of MPP with GoW? I remember there being some discussion of a (strictly defensive) pact with them.

-Arrian

	02-02-2005 23:22									#118
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quote: while I waited a turn or two and took my shot at ND.

That's the scary part IMO. It means GoW has to be onboard, If I were ND, I wan't come after us without them... simply to dangerous.
Then again, GoW went after LEGO without ND aswell.
Hmm, could they have had some kind of agreement? GoW to go after lego and ND to come after us without them attacking each other?

Dnag, we are a paranoid bunch, aren't we.

	03-02-2005 00:27									#119
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We will soon know if it is paranoid or not.

	04-02-2005 15:46									#120
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The last ND message is a bit mysterious. 4 ships and 4 subs? A bit much... but what exactly is meant by him by the street of Borconia and Stormia? Does it cover the whole of the sea in between our continents?

It's a start, though. They are willing to stand down the troop buildup, which is good (although I kind of liked the idea of invading ND soonish)

DeepO