01-02-2005 20:33									#1
	Wiki-List Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Hi there,

For those who didn't knew it already, there is an initiative to use the cIV List to bring it in a wiki (the page is already up and working, administered by lajzar). Don't ask me how, I have no idea how this is done

Still, I'm the one who proposed to actually used the List to build up the wiki so, while I have little implication in the experiment itself, I guess I can make the first step of getting authorizations to incorporate the authors' material in the wiki. If you wrote ideas that are in the cIV List, be kind enough to reply to this post and say wether or not you accept to see your ideas reused and modified at will in the wiki (or if you prefer, send me a private message).

And for those who would like to lurn more about wikis:
What is a wiki
or ask questions here but I guess lajzar is the answer provider on the topic rather than me


Here are people who already responded (positively):
Trifna (it's me... but hey, I like marketting my nick)
DarkCloud
Nikolai
Brent



PS: Would it be useful to sticky this thread for a little while?

	01-02-2005 20:40									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Re: sticky: Send Ming a PM, he will gladly do it if he sees it fit.

	03-02-2005 10:58									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Probably goes without saying, but anything I have written can go on that wiki

	06-02-2005 05:52									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

In response to various questions Trifna asked about the Civ wiki project, I have expanded the faq on that page.

http://lajzar.co.uk/wiki/index.php?...ked%20Questions

In particular, note the concepts behind ownership of ideas. General encyclopaedia information is not an owned idea, and should not have anyone's name attached to it. Comments (on anything) should be placed at the bottom of a page.

Ideas on a game mechanic can be owned ideas, and the original author is strongly encouraged to place his or her name on that idea. Editing the content of these ideas is strongly discouraged.

However...

Adding commenst to the bottom of these ideas is strongly encouraged. And if you think you have a better idea, feel free to post it alongside the first idea. Just because one idea on a given area has been posted, that does NOT mean we cannot have multiple ideas posted. The pla is to have every idea available for viewing, so that developers can see everything at a glance.

	06-02-2005 16:55									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Well, there are some discussion about all this at the moment coming from different views. So it does not seem finished at the moment.

To me, the word "wiki" would not have been invented if it wasn't to define something that is intended to be modified by users, etc etc

	06-02-2005 19:30									#6
	Inflate your Upload Space

Actually, the word wiki refers to the speed and ease with which changes can be made (it is Hawai'in for fast). The etymology has nothing to do with modification.

One thing I failed to note is that any idea that is not explicitly claimed (by being signed) can be freely edited by anyone.

Also, I cannot actually stop anyone from modifying other people's words, and I suspect fighting a determined effort by even a single person would be excessively time consuming.

Thing is, I know there are competing ideas which are not mutually compatible. And if people were encouraged to keep the whole wiki internally consistant as a single design document, the logical response would be to delete en masse anything that is incompatible with your latest brainchild. by making a "don't delete or change another person's signed words" rule, I was hoping to establish a ground rule to encourage people to place ideas there and so people would be fairly certain that anything they put up would remain. Unlike the content of traditional encyclopaedia wikis, there isn't any objective 'truth' against which to measure the content of an article, as every article placed is a primary source, unlike wikipedia which is exclusively a secondary source.

Of course, I can't stop you from changing stuff. I've given you the toys, made a playground. Let's hope you can play nice in it

	07-02-2005 18:31									#7
	Tired of ads?

Ok, so I see it is public discussion now, so lets bring the whole thing here instead of bit and pieces. Here's my last private message to lajzar, saying a bit of my position:


It does not amount exactly to the same thing on one aspect: if we say it is a wiki, it is supposed to be one
Wiki means something for many people, and to say them that it is a wiki if it is not seems like an issue to me.

I believe that what can be changed afterwards permits to get the information potentially managed more effectively at each change that is done. Otherwise, you get more rehash of almost-the-same ideas. Often someone can come and find a way to say the same thing, but in some better way, just as it is for wikipedia.org. It was the whole point of their project and everything gets re-written.



Now, you had not mentioned this up to now:
"by making a "don't delete or change another person's signed words" rule, I was hoping to establish a ground rule to encourage people to place ideas there and so people would be fairly certain that anything they put up would remain"

This is truly an issue (I already saw a chaotic situation based on this). I believe that it is something you can also see for the wikipedia.org and I would guess it needs to be managed. I know that a log is kept so old versions are not lost, and editor do limit any forms of vandalism. But by having texts changed, a same idea can be written in a way that is more efficient (not repeating itself, change an example...).

	10-04-2005 03:47									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I still say opt-out is the way to go. Or at the very least advertise this thread in your signature so people who contributed to the Civ4 list many years ago but only post on other sections of the site may see it.

That being said, you may use any and all my contributions for such a noble cause.

	11-04-2005 00:29									#9
	Support Apolyton

We have a FOURTH acceptancy here.


Wouhou.




__________________


That said, as mentioned in the other thread, I think we can consider that it is like quoting the Civ4 List, simply. Thx

	11-04-2005 00:34									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I think that's best.

	11-04-2005 02:45									#11
	Get a bigger avatar today!

You have mine as well.


Seeing as how most of the ideas will only be able to be implemented into an expansion pack or Civ 5 it doesn't matter much to me.

	11-04-2005 02:52									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Btw, attached is the Diplomacy ideas thread document. The last time I updated it was last August and looking at that wikipedia it doesn't seem like most of the ideas were put up. Then again I'm not exactly sure if all the ideas are meant to be put up. At any rate, though, the document is there and if people want to put up the ideas go right ahead.



EDIT: I saved it as a RTF, so it will show the last update was April 10, but the real last update was Aug 20, 2004.

Attachment: diplomacy.rtf
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).

	11-04-2005 03:07									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Isn't it a part of the List for cIV anyway, so it can be taken directly out of that one?

	11-04-2005 04:36									#14
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Nikolai Isn't it a part of the List for cIV anyway, so it can be taken directly out of that one?

Darkcloud asked for me to send that file to him again last December, but I never got around to actually sending it to him. I'm not sure if he was able to get the file or not (presumably elsewhere), so I figured I'd put it up here in case someone wanted to use it for the civ-wiki if it's not incorporated into the list.


EDIT: I should have just gone to look at the list to see for myself instead. It appears DC did get ahold of my copy, and he did a brilliant job on the entire list.

	11-04-2005 05:30									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

I wish other people would put more on the wiki, so I'd have more ideas of things to put. Maybe I should put a list of barbarian tribes or something. I wish someone would get started some more of the categories we had threads for here. I might be able to add little bits for new sections, but little bits aren't enough for new pages. I had ideas for that "Concepts Concerning Civilizations" page, but forgot them seemingly. In general it was supposed to be how they work and what characteristics they had, and I'd think the list of civs could be a subpage from there. Does anyone have any ideas for maps or scenarios to add to my pages there? Any alternate versions of characteristics for the civs in the list of civs?

	11-04-2005 17:26									#16
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Brent:
There should be lots of new material with the Civ4 List. Well the thing now that the List will be integrated is to figure out how it would be best integrated.

	11-04-2005 20:17									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Recently, there have been a number of spam posts (think "viagra junk mail"). While I have been deleting them almost as soon as they go up, I am worried that the wiki seems to be of more interest to spammers than to the civX community. Should I take down these pages?

	11-04-2005 20:26									#18
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Give it a little more time, and perhaps advertise on other parts of the forum(particulary Civ3 and OT). If noone is interested, I see no need for it, but you never know. I haven't seen the Wiki List been mentioned other places than here and community(neither among the most visited places on this site). I for one think the List as it is now, inside the forum and the Word file, is enough.

	11-04-2005 20:47									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think that
1- Almost no one knows about the wiki
2- We'd need to incorporate the Civ4 List first, since it is the foundations
3- Such projects are always getting more popular when Civ X is coming soon. I was personally surprised to see almost no one discussing Civ ideas AFTER Civ3 was out
4- It needs to be advertised at the right place (Apolyton), but it needs to be ready to welcome those who will be coming (like by having its Civ4 List base there already)

So... I think that the field would benefit from being prepared a bit more, and after that the Wiki-List would be ready for a bit of advertisement. After that only will it be possible to see if there's enough people ready to bring a bit of their energy into this.

	25-05-2005 03:25									#20
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

someone has decided to aggressively hack the wiki site. As soon as I can reinstall everything (my old computer melted, which is why Ive been away), I will be shutting down that site.

As far as I can tell, it is only the front page that is being hacked. I will try to make a backup once I am able to take it down, and I may restore it once I find a more secure solution.

	25-05-2005 03:54									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Great...

Well ok. And I guess that it will be more useful when some expansion pack comes and ideas will be messy in forums

	13-06-2005 06:07									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

My ftp client has been reinstalled, and I've found a way to restore teh front page, although teh security flaws inherent in that version of the wiki are still present. It is once more useable, but I am still actively (ie someone show one to me please) looking for a better solution.

	15-06-2005 17:28									#23
	Got spare money?

I have uploaded a new wiki script. Hopefully, this one is both perfectly stable, and perfectly secure (fingers crossed). It is the dokuwiki script, which includes a function to block spammers by address (if I've configured that right), as well as blocking spam by textual content. I haven't yet figured out teh user groups functions, but hopefully it won't come to that this time.

Old wiki (for archive only)

http://www.lajzar.co.uk/wiki

New wiki (go wild here)

http://www.lajzar.co.uk/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=civ:civ

Edit: fixed url

Last edited by lajzar on 16-06-2005 at 04:12

	15-06-2005 22:04									#24
	Increase Your PM Length

Great lajzar!
In no time I guess that I will contribute one or two things

	18-06-2005 08:24									#25
	Get a bigger avatar today!

In my eternal paranoia over spammers, I have enabled the access control lists. Anyone can read what's there, whether logged in or not. Currently, only registered people who have emailed me will have editing or uploading rights. This list of priviliged people currently includes just myself.

I realise this will slow things down, but I *really* don't want my site used to advertise viagra :/

Edit: You CAN self-register a user name, but to get write access to the civ pages requires an extra authorisation. Just register, then reply to the email you receive and say what you need. It is NOT an automated process, so make your request human-readable.

Last edited by lajzar on 19-06-2005 at 11:07

	19-06-2005 15:39									#26
	Inflate your Upload Space

lajzar, where is it to register EXACTLY? Any URL? I'd register obviously, but it needs to be findable for anyone entering the website, like in flashing pink over black letters :P

	22-06-2005 03:02									#27
	Increase Your PM Length

eep, was it that hard to find?

ok, on ANY page, you should see on the bottom right a button that says "LOGIN". Click on that, then click on the register link.

However, I agree that maybe that isn't intuitive. So I have indeed added register buttons in glowing flahing pink and blue neon letters.

	22-06-2005 03:04									#28
	Inflate your Upload Space

http://www.lajzar.co.uk/dokuwiki/doku.php?do=register is the regiaster link if you want to go direct from here to there.

I also changed the permissions slightly. Within the civ section, now, anyone can read, registered users can edit and create new pages, and registered users who make a request can upload image files.

	22-06-2005 11:31									#29
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Great work on the Wiki

but I try to get all my info at one site

and that would be Apolyton

	22-06-2005 13:35									#30
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Ah yes, that'll be why you include a link to another site in your sig file then won't it?

More seriously, this wiki was created in response to the fact that, at its height, at regular weekly intervals a new thread would appear making a proposal for civ4 that EXACTLY duplicated another older thread. The wiki was meant as a solution to archive ideas in a way that they wouldn't fall off the bottom of a discussion list.

Think of it this way: the forum is for discussing an idea, while the wiki is for preserving the best ideas. they complement each other.