02-02-2005 16:42									#61
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Don't mix an emotional reaction with a sober analysis of what is really going on. Relatives of a crime victim are ready to tear the criminal to pieces. Yet society handles this by means of a sober approach.

Are you a relative of one of the hostages in the Moscow theatre?

Why do you divorce the Russian experience from that of the Yanks?

Are you saying that a sober analysis has the Russians really deserving it?

	02-02-2005 16:45									#62
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond I can't provide a direct answer here. Such an event is too horrible and hypothetical.

So in general the end does justify the means - unless the event in question is too horrible? Are you aware that there probably isn't a general definition of "too horrible"? What if the USians think Sept. 11 was "too horrible" to be justified at all?

quote: Well, yours is a bad argument too, because you can condemn anything with it. In such cases, one should look for more general premises in order to launch an analysis. This is what a sober analysis does.

I don't believe I made an argument to condemn anything. I was just criticizing the "the end does justify the means" style argument.

	02-02-2005 16:46									#63
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond No need for thanks. Your govs know this cynical truth pretty well already.

Apparently not, or the Yanks would have leveled Baghdad long before now and saved themselves the trouble.

That seems to be the Russian way.

	02-02-2005 16:48									#64
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom It had the usual gaggle of would be urban terrorists- the Calvin Kleinhof Gang, say, sat down to earnestly study Marx's 'Grundrisse' and 'Das Kapital' .

"Calvin Kleinhof Gang"

	02-02-2005 16:51									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa If I take the article on a very abstract level I can agree with this. I don't believe that any of the people died in the twin towers deserved death and I think arguing that way is really stupid. Though _basically_ there are more levels on which to look at the situation and if you go more globally you can see the causes and consequences that makes one understand the WHY. On the one hand I think this is what the author tried to argue. OTOH, what the author has not understood is that this doesn't influence justice on a local level. On the local level (and that's where our judical system works), the hijackers flew the plane into the building on purpose, so they are responsible for their deaths and to be called murderers. But again, the US GI in iraq killing civilians is a murderer as well. Both civilians live in a combat zone, the iraqi in one declared by the US and the american in one declared by terrorists. Therefor it's hard to do any judging, though most people seem to think that only governments may declare war and combat zones. This is what has changed with the 9/11 attack.

The people who died took upon themselves the burden of the war. It's very unjust and horrible that those few had to bear so dearly the burden that rightfully belongs to society as a whole. Unfortunately, it seems that this is how the war works...

	02-02-2005 16:52									#66
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Another idiot who connects 9/11 with Iraq

I can agree with him that the people in Pentagon are military targets, but the rest of the article is pure guano.

	02-02-2005 16:55									#67
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quote: I think you hate freedom.

Yup. Yours, specifically.

	02-02-2005 17:06									#68
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Something struck me while arguing about this on CFC, BTW. According to figures published by the Iraqi regime and accepted by leading Swedish newspapers, the UN sanctions killed closer to 200k Iraqis per year during the '90s. The subsequent war and insurgency is supposed to've killed perhaps as much as 100k people in two years.

So, accepting those numbers and assuming that Shrub wouldn't invaded had the WTC attacks not occured, one'd be forced to conclude that the WTC attacks indirectly saved alot more Iraqis than it killed Americans directly.

	02-02-2005 17:21									#69
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Are you a relative of one of the hostages in the Moscow theatre?

Not really. I have a distant acquaintance whose mother happened to be in the theater...

quote: Why do you divorce the Russian experience from that of the Yanks? Are you saying that a sober analysis has the Russians really deserving it?

I don't divorce it at all! (By the way, it's the western media that seem to divorce it all the time. )

Let me illustrate it in the following way. I am a member of society waging a war, and I support this war (at least, don't opppose). In this sense, I am a legitimate target for the opposing side, just as all those poor people happened to be. But, again, the underlying injustice is that few have to pay for the sins (actions) of society as a whole.

	02-02-2005 17:24									#70
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Apparently not, or the Yanks would have leveled Baghdad long before now and saved themselves the trouble. That seems to be the Russian way.

They would have leveled Baghdad had they encountered the same level of resistance as we had in Grozny. So it's not a matter of good manners. It's merely a matter of possibilities.

	02-02-2005 17:26									#71
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Let me illustrate it in the following way. I am a member of society waging a war, and I support this war (at least, don't opppose). In this sense, I am a legitimate target for the opposing side, just as all those poor people happened to be.

No, not every member of the "hostile" society is a legitimate target. You know, there are these things like war crimes etc.

	02-02-2005 17:37									#72
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quote: Let me illustrate it in the following way. I am a member of society waging a war, and I support this war (at least, don't opppose). In this sense, I am a legitimate target for the opposing side, just as all those poor people happened to be. But, again, the underlying injustice is that few have to pay for the sins (actions) of society as a whole.

I found myself arguing the same way once.

	02-02-2005 17:51									#73
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Let me illustrate it in the following way. I am a member of society waging a war, and I support this war (at least, don't opppose). In this sense, I am a legitimate target for the opposing side, just as all those poor people happened to be. But, again, the underlying injustice is that few have to pay for the sins (actions) of society as a whole.

So if I understand well, it would have been fairer if Moscow had been nuked than if the theatre had been attacked?

From what I understand, you imply that it is normal for a war to wish the complete obliteration of the society from where the opposition stems. In short, you seem to agree with the logics that genocide (extermination of a population) is a logical continuation of war.

Or am I wrong?

	02-02-2005 18:06									#74
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You're not.

	02-02-2005 18:29									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Laurentius I've seen you whine endlessly in other threads against group punishment or mass punishment yet here you are saying mass punishment is OK as long as the target is America. Can you be any less consistant?

If you are referring to my "whining" about the torture of civilians US has and still is doing, then yeah group punishment is wrong. Thats very much different than what we have here though.

Here we have a war crimes against humanity and a just retaliation.

I'm not saying either thing is OK, or a good thing to do. The article simply establishes what was (or might have been) going on. Where is the inconsistency in this?

	02-02-2005 18:36									#76
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Then why exactly are you argueing with me if you don't believe that the people killed in the attacks deserved to die?

just like anyone in his right mind would believe that the civilian casualties in iraq are wrong.

but i don't hear you *****ing about those...

so let's say i take your objections with a grain of salt. you don't believe innocent american civilians should die, you don't give a **** about any other people in this world.

	02-02-2005 18:37									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Combat teams? 1. If the US killed children in Iraq, it was an accident 2. If these "combat teams" were hitting a military target and accidentally hit the towers, your argument would hold water. 3. Your "combat teams" targeted civilians. 4. "Combat teams" fight for their survival and train for their survival. 5. "Combat teams" don't learn how to fly an airplane without learning how to land it. 6. If the "combat teams" hit Finland, I'm sure you would say it was okay. Since obviously Finland had to have done something. 7. People that commit suicide, like these "combat teams", don't do it for logical reasons. ACK!

Accident!!? Are you serious? There are no accidents in politics. The administration at the time knew what they were doing. It was power politics, a cold blooded mass murder in your name. In the name of America and freedom. Perhaps they though; If they cant be free, why should they live at all?

Your narrow interpretation of a a combat team is not as witty as you might think it is. The name is not important. Whats important is that these guys were as much terrorists as the guys bombing Baghdad. Do you train your pilots to bomb hospitals?

I dont see any reason for a combat team to attack Finland since we havent done anybody wrong. You in the other hand have. Deal with it.

	02-02-2005 18:40									#78
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither No, he expected the morons to show up sooner. Where did he say hate?

You enjoy being an idiot?

	02-02-2005 18:46									#79
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius You enjoy being an idiot?

He is right though. I said nothing about hate.

quote: so let's say i take your objections with a grain of salt.

You're free to do so. I don't see how you could without justifying the firebombing of Dresden by the Allies or of London by the Germans though.

	02-02-2005 18:47									#80
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This article is so passe, so 2001. The soul searching after 9/11 came and went. Time to deal with the issues at hand and prosecute the war at routing out the remaining AQ cells. As for the blame US first crowd, who gives a flying f*ck.

	02-02-2005 18:48									#81
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That's the attitude that is to blame.

	02-02-2005 18:51									#82
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I aim to please.

	02-02-2005 18:54									#83
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You do offer up good material.

	02-02-2005 18:54									#84
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You're free to do so. I don't see how you could without justifying the firebombing of Dresden by the Allies or of London by the Germans though.

i never said i agreed with what the article states. so i do not have to justify it with any firebombing or nuking of cities. i leave that to you freedom bringing guys.

i am just fed up with the moral higher ground issues here.

3000 amrican civilians dead : very bad, whining goes on for three and a half years. stupid guy comes along and says they 'deserved it' because of what their governement has been doing. OUTCRY of injustice, bad taste, whatever...

100000 iraqi civilians dead : my gives a **** is broken

way to go american freedom !!!

	02-02-2005 19:17									#85
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this ward churchill is an idiot. He thinks that trading bonds is somehow equivalent to what Eichman did, cause the bond traders were cogs in the economy, and Eichman was a cog - apparently he thinks Eichmans main role was to set train schedules.

In fact Eichman among other things went to Hungary and directly pressured the Hungarian govt to hand over its Jews. Knowing precisely what that meant. (Which, BTW, is why the Hungarian govt didnt want to turn them over, and had to be pressured).

There were thousands of Germans who had "cog" roles parallel to the alleged roles of say, Cantor Fitzgerald traders. They were NOT executed, and for the most part, were not even imprisoned.

Ergo, Churchill is totally ignorant of the history of the holocaust. QED.


However I do not think he should be censored. On the contrary, I think his quotes should be made more widespread, so the people can better see the kind of idiocy thats out there.

	02-02-2005 19:32									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor So if I understand well, it would have been fairer if Moscow had been nuked than if the theatre had been attacked? From what I understand, you imply that it is normal for a war to wish the complete obliteration of the society from where the opposition stems. In short, you seem to agree with the logics that genocide (extermination of a population) is a logical continuation of war. Or am I wrong?

You are right and that's why I am very careful with justness and unjustness in such situations. Someone has to pay the price, the less the better.

Still his point remains, that you are member of a society and as such you cannot pledge innocent when you are counter-attacked, since everyone is part of the society, everyone is responsible for its actions.

	02-02-2005 19:34									#87
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lotm teh pwner

	02-02-2005 19:40									#88
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I thought this was about www.godhates911victims.com

	02-02-2005 19:44									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa You are right and that's why I am very careful with justness and unjustness in such situations. Someone has to pay the price, the less the better. Still his point remains, that you are member of a society and as such you cannot pledge innocent when you are counter-attacked, since everyone is part of the society, everyone is responsible for its actions.

I disagree.

True, in all cases, one remains a cog in the machine, no matter if they agree or disagree with the policies. It's not like there were many Americans who withheld their taxes to efficiently oppose the war in Iraq (despite the significant amount of Yanks who opposed the war adamantly), or it's not like there were a swoop of strikes on the matter. The only ones who have refused to be full-time cogs in the machine were the Italians, as they had huge, but short-lived strikes when Berlusconi announced his support for the war in Iraq.

And this is precisely the reason why we should revile taking the fight back to the "cogs": if we intend to earn our living, we have no choice but to be cogs, in one way or another. Now, we have a choice in the kind of cog we'll be (if you're a pacifist, you can reject being a soldier, or a civilian designing weapon systems for instance), but in all cases, your work will benefit your society in a way or another.

Thus, to admit that all "cogs" are fair game, is to admit that genocide is fair game: the complete and undiscriminate obliteration of a population.

	02-02-2005 19:48									#90
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we are discussing an essay of university professor (!) that contains the following phrase

quote: Gimme a break

'nough said.