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DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:27
Exclamation  Old Post 02-02-2005 06:35
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9/11 victims deserved their fate Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
CU prof's essay sparks dispute
Ward Churchill says 9/11 victims were not innocent people

By John C. Ensslin, Rocky Mountain News
January 27, 2005

A University of Colorado professor has sparked controversy in New York over an essay he wrote that maintains that people killed in the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks were not innocent victims.

Students and faculty members at Hamilton College in Clinton, N.Y., have been protesting a speaking appearance on Feb. 3 by Ward L. Churchill, chairman of the CU Ethnic Studies Department.

They are upset over an essay Churchill wrote titled, "Some People Push Back: On the Justice of Roosting Chickens."

The essay takes its title from a remark that black activist Malcolm X made in the wake of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

Malcolm X created controversy when he said Kennedy's murder was a case of "chickens coming home to roost."

Churchill's essay argues that the Sept. 11 attacks were in retaliation for the Iraqi children killed in a 1991 U.S. bombing raid and by economic sanctions imposed on Iraq by the United Nations following the Persian Gulf War.

The essay contends the hijackers who crashed airplanes into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon on Sept. 11 were "combat teams," not terrorists.

It states: "The most that can honestly be said of those involved on Sept. 11 is that they finally responded in kind to some of what this country has dispensed to their people as a matter of course."

The essay maintains that the people killed inside the Pentagon were "military targets."

"As for those in the World Trade Center," the essay said, "well, really, let's get a grip here, shall we? True enough, they were civilians of a sort. But innocent? Gimme a break."

The essay goes on to describe the victims as "little Eichmanns," referring to Adolph Eichmann, who executed Adolph Hitler's plan to exterminate Jews during World War II.

Churchill said he was not especially surprised at the controversy at Hamilton, but he also defended the opinions contained in his essay.

"When you kill 500,000 children in order to impose your will on other countries, then you shouldn't be surprised when somebody responds in kind," Churchill said.

"If it's not comfortable, that's the point. It's not comfortable for the people on the other side, either."

The attacks on Sept. 11, he said, were "a natural and inevitable consequence of what happens as a result of business as usual in the United States. Wake up."

A longtime activist with the American Indian Movement, Churchill was one of eight defendants acquitted last week in Denver County Court on charges of disrupting Denver's Columbus Day parade.

His pending speech at Hamilton has drawn criticism from professors and students, including Matt Coppo, a sophomore whose father died in the World Trade Center attacks.

"His views are completely hurtful to the families of 3,000 people," Coppo said.

A spokesman for Hamilton College released a statement noting that Hamilton is committed to "the free exchange of ideas. We expect that many of those who strongly disagree with Mr. Churchill's comments will attend his talk and make their views known."
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/dr...3501617,00.html

Suprised there wasn't a thread already.

MRT144 is offline MRT144
Chieftain
Seattle Washington
Oct 2002
time: 21:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 06:42
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only people in the second building are at fault.

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
King
of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 06:45
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Churchill's article

Hint: If you thin that the article is portraying him negatively, don't click the link. You won't like what you'll see.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 06:47
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Suffering from ads?

They were all little Eichmanns, MRT144. All equally deserving of death according to Churchill.

Gatekeeper is offline Gatekeeper
King
United States of America
Feb 2000
time: 23:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 07:00 Visit Gatekeeper's homepage!
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Got spare money?

Frankly, I can't say anything nice or respectful regarding this guy, so I'm just going to shut up before I pop a cork ... AND CRUSH HIS SKULL LIKE AN EGGSHELL!!!!

Oops ... the cork popped. My apologies, folks.

Gatekeeper

Gatekeeper is offline Gatekeeper
King
United States of America
Feb 2000
time: 23:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 07:11 Visit Gatekeeper's homepage!
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Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hmm ... it looks like the man received multiple death threats and won't be speaking in New York state after all:

quote:
Professor Talk Nixed After 9/11 Comment

By WILLIAM KATES
Associated Press Writer

SYRACUSE, N.Y. — Citing death threats, an upstate New York college on Tuesday canceled a panel discussion featuring a professor who compared the World Trade Center victims to Nazis.

Hamilton College spokesman Michael DeBraggio said multiple death threats were made against both college officials and guest speaker Ward Churchill, who resigned Monday as chairman of the ethnic studies department at the University of Colorado.

In an essay written in the aftermath of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, Churchill said the World Trade Center victims were "little Eichmanns," a reference to Adolf Eichmann, who organized Nazi plans to exterminate Europe's Jews. Churchill also spoke of the "gallant sacrifices" of the "combat teams" that struck America.

The essay attracted little attention until Churchill was invited to speak Thursday at Hamilton College, about 40 miles east of Syracuse, N.Y. Hundreds of relatives of Sept. 11 victims have protested the appearance.

Administrators at first moved the scheduled appearance to a building that can seat 2,000, instead of the originally planned 300.

Hamilton College President Joan Hinde Stewart had said the college was committed to free speech, "however repugnant one might find Mr. Churchill's remarks."

On Tuesday, however, Stewart sent an e-mail to students, faculty and staff saying the college had a "higher responsibility ... and that is the safety and security" of the campus community. She said the threats were "credible" and had been turned over to police.

Despite resigning as department chair, Churchill will retain his teaching job.

Colorado Gov. Bill Owens called on Churchill to resign his faculty position too, saying taxpayers shouldn't have to subsidize his "outrageous and insupportable" views.

"If anyone could possibly be compared to the evildoers of Nazi Germany, it is the terrorists of the 21st century who have an equally repugnant disregard for human life," Owens said in a letter to the university's College Republicans released Tuesday.

Churchill did not immediately return telephone messages and e-mails from The Associated Press.

In an interview Monday with Denver station KCNC-TV, Churchill said he is not an advocate of violence, but that the attacks were a response to the way the United States treats people abroad.

"The overriding question that was being posed at the time was 'Why did this happen, why did they hate us so much,' and my premise was when you do this to other people's families and children, that is going to be a natural response," he said.


The man's giving *way* too much credit for the likes of Osama bin Laden and his al-Qaida terror organization. Guess he's just another one of those ivory tower, head-in-the-clouds types.

Gatekeeper

Winston is offline Winston
King
Danmark
Mar 1999
time: 06:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 07:23
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He should retreat to Iceland and maybe have a nice game with Bobby Fischer every now and then.

laurentius is offline laurentius
King
Helsinki, Finland
Jun 2001
time: 07:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 07:37
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I totally agree with this article

Sane, fresh thoughts....at last.

quote:
Looking back, it will seem to future generations inexplicable why Americans were unable on their own, and in time to save themselves, to accept a rule of nature so basic that it could be mouthed by an actor, Lawrence Fishburn, in a movie, The Cotton Club.

"You've got to learn, " the line went, "that when you push people around, some people push back."

Last edited by laurentius on 02-02-2005 at 07:43

Dr Strangelove is offline Dr Strangelove
King
USA
Jan 1970
time: 00:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 07:46
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Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Some time after the 9/11 attack Osama Ben Laden owned up to the attack. During that speech he did not mention the bombing of Iraq as a motivation for the attack but instead cited the usual stuiff about the oppression of the Palestinians and US forces stationed in Saudi Arabia as well as demanding the conversion of the rest of the world to Islam, so it is not reasonable to claim that the 9/11 attack was "chickens coming home to roost" re: the deaths of Iraqi children.

laurentius is offline laurentius
King
Helsinki, Finland
Jun 2001
time: 07:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 07:47
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Who says OBL had any influence over the combat teams?

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 07:48
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quote:
Originally posted by laurentius
Sane, fresh thoughts....at last.
I expected the trolls much sooner.

laurentius is offline laurentius
King
Helsinki, Finland
Jun 2001
time: 07:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 07:51
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
I expected the trolls much sooner.



You hate opinions opposed to yours dont you.

laurentius is offline laurentius
King
Helsinki, Finland
Jun 2001
time: 07:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 07:58
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Got spare money?

I dont understand. You post an article here expecting a discussion but do not show any respect towards other peoples opinions. Instead of trying to protect your thread from trolls you start to troll yourself?

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 08:00
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quote:
Originally posted by laurentius
You hate opinions opposed to yours dont you.
Sorry. I'm such a little Eichmann.

laurentius is offline laurentius
King
Helsinki, Finland
Jun 2001
time: 07:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 08:02
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The next thing you or some other jackass here will do is probably try to label me as a "left wing loony" and continue living in your lalala-land

I think you hate freedom.

The Emperor Fabulous is offline The Emperor Fabulous
Warlord
Apolyton's Resident Actor-in-Training
Aug 1999
time: 00:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 08:03
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quote:
Originally posted by laurentius

You hate opinions opposed to yours dont you.


We should count our lucky stars that he's only in a position to hate them.

laurentius is offline laurentius
King
Helsinki, Finland
Jun 2001
time: 07:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 08:05
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Sorry. I'm such a little Eichmann.


What are you? A former Marine or something?

PLATO is offline PLATO

King
Of the occupied South
Dec 2002
time: 23:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 08:07
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Churchill has a right to his opinion. My opinion is that he is an ignorant ass. Fortunately, I have a right to my opinion as well.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 08:08
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quote:
Originally posted by laurentius
The next thing you or some other jackass here will do is probably try to label me as a "left wing loony"
I'd be more likely to label you as an authoritarian wacko for your belief in how just collective punishment and support for it's use.

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 08:09
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The article is in poor taste AT BEST, but any academic papaer that invokles Godwin so quickly is not much.

That said, I do hate mororns who start threatening people's lives more than I hate *******s like Churchill.

laurentius is offline laurentius
King
Helsinki, Finland
Jun 2001
time: 07:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 08:10
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
I'd be more likely to label you as an authoritarian wacko for your belief in how just collective punishment and support for it's use.



And how would that make me different from you or any other American?

I agree with the author: 1) Killing is wrong. 2) You have to bear responsibility for your actions or actions done in your name that you havent protested against.

The Emperor Fabulous is offline The Emperor Fabulous
Warlord
Apolyton's Resident Actor-in-Training
Aug 1999
time: 00:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 08:19
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Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Many people don't want to hear the argument that the benevolent United States may do some things that upset people in other countries. They also especially don't want to hear that because of those actions/policies, others who are effected may decide to "push back" as the article states.

They'd rather just stick their fingers in their ears and continue ignorantly assuming that we're always good and they have no reasons other than they "hate freedom".

Of course, now that I've said that, some of the people I just mentioned will take it upon themselves to call me unAmerican or unpatriotic. They are simply unwilling to understand.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 08:20 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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He has a point. The American public is going to have to get their head out of their asses.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:27
Question  Old Post 02-02-2005 08:30
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Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote:
Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
Many people don't want to hear the argument that the benevolent United States may do some things that upset people in other countries.
Does that make coming to kill you, personally, moral or that you deserved to die?

laurentius is offline laurentius
King
Helsinki, Finland
Jun 2001
time: 07:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 08:32
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yes

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 08:34
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Get a bigger avatar today!

The arguement that the US has done many things to make it hated around the world i one thing- saying the specific individuals killed in the attacks deserved to die is something completely different and utterly ignorant.

If some US official had been gunned down or so, then, while still a noxious arguement, you couyld sort of say that as an agent of a state that has done X and Y, they got what was coming. As I said, even then its a noxious arguement.

The arguement Cunningham made is more worthy of some loner 15 year old imbecile with illusions of intellectual grandeaur.

The Emperor Fabulous is offline The Emperor Fabulous
Warlord
Apolyton's Resident Actor-in-Training
Aug 1999
time: 00:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 08:41
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Does that make coming to kill you, personally, moral or that you deserved to die?


Only if I've done the same to you. I don't agree with most of the article, just the idea that we're (the US) not innocent.

And it didn't do them much good, did it? We took Afghanistan in retaliation, didn't we? Which, as you'll notice by the argument, is "pushing back".

We're just able to push back harder.

laurentius is offline laurentius
King
Helsinki, Finland
Jun 2001
time: 07:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 08:43
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

No, the argument is valid. Would have you condemned if some jew activist had blown up 10 000 people at Berlin during the WW2?

You kill people, they retaliate. You steal, you get punished. You approve killing, you still get punished.

The arguement Cunningham made is unworthy of some loner 25 year old cynical New Yorker imbecile.

Thats excatly the point, the onle ones who have illusions of intellectual or moral grandeur are Americans.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:27
Question  Old Post 02-02-2005 08:43
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quote:
Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
Only if I've done the same to you.
Then why exactly are you argueing with me if you don't believe that the people killed in the attacks deserved to die?

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:27
  Old Post 02-02-2005 08:58
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Remove this text

Laurentius I've seen you whine endlessly in other threads against group punishment or mass punishment yet here you are saying mass punishment is OK as long as the target is America.

Can you be any less consistant?

 
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