05-02-2005 00:32									#121
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quote: Of course if it is on a website one can't say anything....

PWN3D!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111111111111

quote: I don't really understand the love for DS9. Those space battles were a travesty.

How 'bout we explain it this way:
It's not so much love for DS9 as in, "Wow, that was, like, not as shitty as Voyager or Enterprise... I mean, I thought DS9 was bad, but... just... wow..."

Though, personally, I kinda liked DS9. It was leagues better than the shclock that came after it, you know, the sloppy fourths and fifths...

	05-02-2005 00:45									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: Of course if it is on a website one can't say anything.... PWN3D!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111111111111

....except perhaps that it is a silly idea to think some people would start to dislike something they actually like because some website does not like it.....

	05-02-2005 00:46									#123
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quote: ....except perhaps that it is a silly idea to think some people would start to dislike something they actually like because some website does not like it....

Oh, I'm not out to convince you. The fact that you happily swallowed the ookie cookie that was Enterprise suggests to me that at least in that area, you were beyond conversion.

	05-02-2005 00:56									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: ....except perhaps that it is a silly idea to think some people would start to dislike something they actually like because some website does not like it.... Oh, I'm not out to convince you. The fact that you happily swallowed the ookie cookie that was Enterprise suggests to me that at least in that area, you were beyond conversion.

Of course, because you provide NO evidence! You provide NOTHING!

	05-02-2005 00:59									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman I don't really understand the love for DS9. Those space battles were a travesty.

I really haven't watched that many episodes, but I did watch those space battles in the dominion wars. I thought those were pretty cool.

I just never got into the characters as much as TOS or TNG. Characters are what make a show (along with decent writing).

	05-02-2005 03:04									#126
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quote: I really haven't watched that many episodes, but I did watch those space battles in the dominion wars. I thought those were pretty cool.

"Issues" I have with the DS9 battles:

1. Only the Defiant seemed to have shields. All the other Federation ships (presumably crewed by tens of thousands of Ensign Expendables) blew up like fireworks.

2. The fighting was at pointblank range, with ships ducking and weaving like fighter planes. Hell, they even had fighter-class ships. Call me staid, but I liked the slow-paced naval-style combat from older Star Treks better.

3. Every single Federation ship was unique; you would have thought that they could get a decent design and stick with it. Like the Defiant.

4. The Federation used brutal attrition tactics. Not like them at all.

	05-02-2005 03:49									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman I don't really understand the love for DS9. Those space battles were a travesty.

Have you ever seen a realistic portrayal of a space battle? My guess is that they would be fought at distances of huindreds to thousand of miles distance if the types of super high energy beam weapons and trans-liight speed missles that Sci-Fi writers boast about are available. Surely people capable of travelling between stars would have computer guidance systems in their weapons several orders of magnitude better than anything available today, so misses would be rare. I imagine that when ships are sliced apart there probably would not be big colorful fiery explosions, just big hunks of metal seperating via explosive decompression. You'll never see realistic space battles on TV or in the movies because they would be too boring.

	05-02-2005 03:55									#128
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B5 space battles were much better than Star Trek battles, thought the smaller budget made them smaller.

The battle in which the Shadows destroy the Narn attack fleet is very short, but I think very good- ships just don;t blow up, and most of the kills happens from a fair distance (possibly dozens of kilometers away) with beam weapons.

The battle where Eath forces come to take the station is also very good.

Space battles could onyl really happen I think at distances of light-seconds- that is still a huge space, but how could you really even track the target well at distances greater? Of course, battles near planets have to happen at much shorter ranges.

	05-02-2005 04:05									#129
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The problem with the battles in DS9 that Sandman was referring to is that it was the first time that that Star Trek attempted to portray gigantic fleet engagements. In order to dramatically depict the fleets, supposedly composed of thousands of ships, they chose to place the vessels in tight packs in which the ships seem to be spaced only about a hundred yards or so apart.

	05-02-2005 04:13									#130
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Star Trek ship combat from TNG on was always close range, with ships moving very quickly , manuevering like fighters. The big battles of the Dominion War was the firt time the had many ships, but the whole close range thing was not.

Heck, ship to ship combat in Star Trek was also very close.

	05-02-2005 07:16									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Have you ever seen a realistic portrayal of a space battle? My guess is that they would be fought at distances of huindreds to thousand of miles distance if the types of super high energy beam weapons and trans-liight speed missles that Sci-Fi writers boast about are available. Surely people capable of travelling between stars would have computer guidance systems in their weapons several orders of magnitude better than anything available today, so misses would be rare. I imagine that when ships are sliced apart there probably would not be big colorful fiery explosions, just big hunks of metal seperating via explosive decompression. You'll never see realistic space battles on TV or in the movies because they would be too boring.

The idea that is utilized in BG is that space is quiet but you can hear and see the effects on the inside of the vessels.

	05-02-2005 09:20									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Pax The idea that is utilized in BG is that space is quiet but you can hear and see the effects on the inside of the vessels.

True, but the idea of a ship, even one as big as the Galactica, brushing off a direct hit from a nuke is pretty ludicrous.

What I'm saying is that it is routine to depict space battles in a particular way that the public enjoys. I mean big fiery explosions, impressively tight formations of combatants, close order dogfights, and tracers being sprayed all around. Every producer follows the conventions to one extent or the other. In reality it would probably be much different.

	05-02-2005 13:58									#133
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The battle in ROTJ has (capital) ships that are more than a ship's width apart.

Most of the battles in the original series and the TNG, as well as in the first six movies, whilst still taking place at a close range, don't place the ships nose to nose.

	05-02-2005 14:03									#134
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the problem is if you want to have more than 1 ship in a camera shot, they are going to have to be close . TV screens are only so big.

as we were discussing earlier, realistic combat would have them firing weapons from thousands or millions of kilometers away, or maybe even light years away.

I never considered the battles in TNG to be "fighter like" I felt they captured the essence of a slow maneuvering space vessel appropiately.

As for DS9, yeah those scenes look a bit too chaotic. It would never happen that way. But I admit it looked cool. . It would be more appropiate to approach in formation and engage from longer distances.

	05-02-2005 14:11									#135
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Just take a far off view, like the view from the Emperor's throne room in ROTJ. No sound, just flashes.

	05-02-2005 14:42									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I just never got into the characters as much as TOS or TNG. Characters are what make a show (along with decent writing).

The thing was that i really liked the characters in Enterprise, the banter between Trip and Archer, the whole Vulcan issue and the difficulty that caused on the ship. I only saw the first two series, so i dont know if it went down hill rapidly?

I always felt DS9/Voyager etc were somehow shackled by TNG and the characters always felt rather repressed. In Enterprise i felt they brought back a little of the humanity(the flaws/mistakes etc).

Enterprise for me was a breath of Star Trek fresh air - but maybe my love of the origonal series has a lot to do with it. The only thing i was worried about, was that as it preceeded all the above series, it would have problems with continuity. Not being a StarTrek spotter, i was never sure if it pulled that off or not?

When it switched to Sky, sadly i didnt follow it anymore

	05-02-2005 14:54									#137
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speakin of fighter space combat.

I'm watching this battlestar gallatica series. It's horrible! I haven't watched until today, now I know why. The special effects are really bad. And that show has always had "fighters" in space, higly unrealistic. but I did like the old show as a kid. but I liked a lot of stupid things as a kid. Like buck rogers tv show.

	05-02-2005 19:35									#138
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I tivoed the Battlestar Gallatica with a season ticket thinking that I would watch all the episodes in order... I ended up bailing on the show. I've been hearing a lot talk that's not favorable about the show. Is there anyone here that likes it?

Did the emergence of BG really contribute to the cancellation of Enterprise?

	05-02-2005 19:36									#139
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Enterprise was toast no matter what.
They were lucky to get this season... and only a dramatic boost in the ratings would have saved it... and that didn't happen.

	05-02-2005 23:57									#140
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I wouldn't call myself a Trekkie. Never had (much less made) a ST costume, went to conventions, or the like. But I've always liked ST and tried many times to like Voyager and did on occasions.

I had high hopes for Ent but knew it was dreck by the first 10 minutes.

Enterprise sucked all the air out of the room and any follow-up series has a serious uphill climb.