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Ramo is offline Ramo
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The New Yorker has a great article on the Outsourcing of Torture. It's a really good article, which I recommend y'all to read in full. Emphasis added, per usual:

quote:
In January 27th, President Bush, in an interview with the Times, assured the world that “torture is never acceptable, nor do we hand over people to countries that do torture.” Maher Arar, a Canadian engineer who was born in Syria, was surprised to learn of Bush’s statement. Two and a half years ago, American officials, suspecting Arar of being a terrorist, apprehended him in New York and sent him back to Syria, where he endured months of brutal interrogation, including torture. When Arar described his experience in a phone interview recently, he invoked an Arabic expression. The pain was so unbearable, he said, that “you forget the milk that you have been fed from the breast of your mother.”

[...]

Ten hours after landing in Jordan, Arar said, he was driven to Syria, where interrogators, after a day of threats, “just began beating on me.” They whipped his hands repeatedly with two-inch-thick electrical cables, and kept him in a windowless underground cell that he likened to a grave. “Not even animals could withstand it,” he said. Although he initially tried to assert his innocence, he eventually confessed to anything his tormentors wanted him to say. “You just give up,” he said. “You become like an animal.”

A year later, in October, 2003, Arar was released without charges, after the Canadian government took up his cause. Imad Moustapha, the Syrian Ambassador in Washington, announced that his country had found no links between Arar and terrorism. Arar, it turned out, had been sent to Syria on orders from the U.S. government, under a secretive program known as “extraordinary rendition.” This program had been devised as a means of extraditing terrorism suspects from one foreign state to another for interrogation and prosecution. Critics contend that the unstated purpose of such renditions is to subject the suspects to aggressive methods of persuasion that are illegal in America—including torture.

Arar is suing the U.S. government for his mistreatment. “They are outsourcing torture because they know it’s illegal,” he said. “Why, if they have suspicions, don’t they question people within the boundary of the law?”

Rendition was originally carried out on a limited basis, but after September 11th, when President Bush declared a global war on terrorism, the program expanded beyond recognition—becoming, according to a former C.I.A. official, “an abomination.” What began as a program aimed at a small, discrete set of suspects—people against whom there were outstanding foreign arrest warrants—came to include a wide and ill-defined population that the Administration terms “illegal enemy combatants.” Many of them have never been publicly charged with any crime. Scott Horton, an expert on international law who helped prepare a report on renditions issued by N.Y.U. Law School and the New York City Bar Association, estimates that a hundred and fifty people have been rendered since 2001. Representative Ed Markey, a Democrat from Massachusetts and a member of the Select Committee on Homeland Security, said that a more precise number was impossible to obtain. “I’ve asked people at the C.I.A. for numbers,” he said. “They refuse to answer. All they will say is that they’re in compliance with the law.”

Although the full scope of the extraordinary-rendition program isn’t known, several recent cases have come to light that may well violate U.S. law. In 1998, Congress passed legislation declaring that it is “the policy of the United States not to expel, extradite, or otherwise effect the involuntary return of any person to a country in which there are substantial grounds for believing the person would be in danger of being subjected to torture, regardless of whether the person is physically present in the United States.”

The extraordinary-rendition program bears little relation to the system of due process afforded suspects in crimes in America. Terrorism suspects in Europe, Africa, Asia, and the Middle East have often been abducted by hooded or masked American agents, then forced onto a Gulfstream V jet, like the one described by Arar. This jet, which has been registered to a series of dummy American corporations, such as Bayard Foreign Marketing, of Portland, Oregon, has clearance to land at U.S. military bases. Upon arriving in foreign countries, rendered suspects often vanish. Detainees are not provided with lawyers, and many families are not informed of their whereabouts.

The most common destinations for rendered suspects are Egypt, Morocco, Syria, and Jordan, all of which have been cited for human-rights violations by the State Department, and are known to torture suspects.
To justify sending detainees to these countries, the Administration appears to be relying on a very fine reading of an imprecise clause in the United Nations Convention Against Torture (which the U.S. ratified in 1994), requiring “substantial grounds for believing” that a detainee will be tortured abroad. Martin Lederman, a lawyer who left the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel in 2002, after eight years, says, “The Convention only applies when you know a suspect is more likely than not to be tortured, but what if you kind of know? That’s not enough. So there are ways to get around it.”

[...]

Rendition is just one element of the Administration’s New Paradigm. The C.I.A. itself is holding dozens of “high value” terrorist suspects outside of the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S., in addition to the estimated five hundred and fifty detainees in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. The Administration confirmed the identities of at least ten of these suspects to the 9/11 Commission—including Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, a top Al Qaeda operative, and Ramzi bin al-Shibh, a chief planner of the September 11th attacks—but refused to allow commission members to interview the men, and would not say where they were being held. Reports have suggested that C.I.A. prisons are being operated in Thailand, Qatar, and Afghanistan, among other countries. At the request of the C.I.A., Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld personally ordered that a prisoner in Iraq be hidden from Red Cross officials for several months, and Army General Paul Kern told Congress that the C.I.A. may have hidden up to a hundred detainees. The Geneva Conventions of 1949, which established norms on the treatment of soldiers and civilians captured in war, require the prompt registration of detainees, so that their treatment can be monitored, but the Administration argues that Al Qaeda members and supporters, who are not part of a state-sponsored military, are not covered by the Conventions.

The Bush Administration’s departure from international norms has been justified in intellectual terms by élite lawyers like Gonzales, who is a graduate of Harvard Law School. Gonzales, the new Attorney General, argued during his confirmation proceedings that the U.N. Convention Against Torture’s ban on “cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment” of terrorist suspects does not apply to American interrogations of foreigners overseas. Perhaps surprisingly, the fiercest internal resistance to this thinking has come from people who have been directly involved in interrogation, including veteran F.B.I. and C.I.A. agents. Their concerns are as much practical as ideological. Years of experience in interrogation have led them to doubt the effectiveness of physical coercion as a means of extracting reliable information. They also warn that the Bush Administration, having taken so many prisoners outside the realm of the law, may not be able to bring them back in. By holding detainees indefinitely, without counsel, without charges of wrongdoing, and under circumstances that could, in legal parlance, “shock the conscience” of a court, the Administration has jeopardized its chances of convicting hundreds of suspected terrorists, or even of using them as witnesses in almost any court in the world.

The criminal prosecution of terrorist suspects has not been a priority for the Bush Administration, which has focussed, rather, on preventing additional attacks. But some people who have been fighting terrorism for many years are concerned about unintended consequences of the Administration’s radical legal measures. Among these critics is Michael Scheuer, a former C.I.A. counter-terrorism expert who helped establish the practice of rendition.

[...]

From the start, though, the C.I.A. was wary of granting terrorism suspects the due process afforded by American law. The agency did not want to divulge secrets about its intelligence sources and methods, and American courts demand transparency. Even establishing the chain of custody of key evidence—such as a laptop computer—could easily pose a significant problem: foreign governments might refuse to testify in U.S. courts about how they had obtained the evidence, for fear of having their secret coöperation exposed. (Foreign governments often worried about retaliation from their own Muslim populations.) The C.I.A. also felt that other agencies sometimes stood in its way. In 1996, for example, the State Department stymied a joint effort by the C.I.A. and the F.B.I. to question one of bin Laden’s cousins in America, because he had a diplomatic passport, which protects the holder from U.S. law enforcement. Describing the C.I.A.’s frustration, Scheuer said, “We were turning into voyeurs. We knew where these people were, but we couldn’t capture them because we had nowhere to take them.” The agency realized that “we had to come up with a third party.”

The obvious choice, Scheuer said, was Egypt. The largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid after Israel, Egypt was a key strategic ally, and its secret police force, the Mukhabarat, had a reputation for brutality. Egypt had been frequently cited by the State Department for torture of prisoners. According to a 2002 report, detainees were “stripped and blindfolded; suspended from a ceiling or doorframe with feet just touching the floor; beaten with fists, whips, metal rods, or other objects; subjected to electrical shocks; and doused with cold water [and] sexually assaulted.” Hosni Mubarak, Egypt’s leader, who came to office in 1981, after President Anwar Sadat was assassinated by Islamist extremists, was determined to crack down on terrorism. His prime political enemies were radical Islamists, hundreds of whom had fled the country and joined Al Qaeda. Among these was Ayman al-Zawahiri, a physician from Cairo, who went to Afghanistan and eventually became bin Laden’s deputy.

In 1995, Scheuer said, American agents proposed the rendition program to Egypt, making clear that it had the resources to track, capture, and transport terrorist suspects globally—including access to a small fleet of aircraft. Egypt embraced the idea. “What was clever was that some of the senior people in Al Qaeda were Egyptian,” Scheuer said. “It served American purposes to get these people arrested, and Egyptian purposes to get these people back, where they could be interrogated.” Technically, U.S. law requires the C.I.A. to seek “assurances” from foreign governments that rendered suspects won’t be tortured. Scheuer told me that this was done, but he was “not sure” if any documents confirming the arrangement were signed.

A series of spectacular covert operations followed from this secret pact. On September 13, 1995, U.S. agents helped kidnap Talaat Fouad Qassem, one of Egypt’s most wanted terrorists, in Croatia. Qassem had fled to Europe after being linked by Egypt to the assassination of Sadat; he had been sentenced to death in absentia. Croatian police seized Qassem in Zagreb and handed him over to U.S. agents, who interrogated him aboard a ship cruising the Adriatic Sea and then took him back to Egypt. Once there, Qassem disappeared. There is no record that he was put on trial. Hossam el-Hamalawy, an Egyptian journalist who covers human-rights issues, said, “We believe he was executed.”

A more elaborate operation was staged in Tirana, Albania, in the summer of 1998. According to the Wall Street Journal, the C.I.A. provided the Albanian intelligence service with equipment to wiretap the phones of suspected Muslim militants. Tapes of the conversations were translated into English, and U.S. agents discovered that they contained lengthy discussions with Zawahiri, bin Laden’s deputy. The U.S. pressured Egypt for assistance; in June, Egypt issued an arrest warrant for Shawki Salama Attiya, one of the militants. Over the next few months, according to the Journal, Albanian security forces, working with U.S. agents, killed one suspect and captured Attiya and four others. These men were bound, blindfolded, and taken to an abandoned airbase, then flown by jet to Cairo for interrogation. Attiya later alleged that he suffered electrical shocks to his genitals, was hung from his limbs, and was kept in a cell in filthy water up to his knees. Two other suspects, who had been sentenced to death in absentia, were hanged.

On August 5, 1998, an Arab-language newspaper in London published a letter from the International Islamic Front for Jihad, in which it threatened retaliation against the U.S. for the Albanian operation—in a “language they will understand.” Two days later, the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were blown up, killing two hundred and twenty-four people.

The U.S. began rendering terror suspects to other countries, but the most common destination remained Egypt. The partnership between the American and the Egyptian intelligence services was extraordinarily close: the Americans could give the Egyptian interrogators questions they wanted put to the detainees in the morning, Scheuer said, and get answers by the evening. The Americans asked to question suspects directly themselves, but, Scheuer said, the Egyptians refused. “We were never in the same room at the same time.”

[...]

Since September 11th, as the number of renditions has grown, and hundreds of terrorist suspects have been deposited indefinitely in places like Guantánamo Bay, the shortcomings of this approach have become manifest. “Are we going to hold these people forever?” Scheuer asked. “The policymakers hadn’t thought what to do with them, and what would happen when it was found out that we were turning them over to governments that the human-rights world reviled.” Once a detainee’s rights have been violated, he says, “you absolutely can’t” reinstate him into the court system. “You can’t kill him, either,” he added. “All we’ve done is create a nightmare.”

On a bleak winter day in Trenton, New Jersey, Dan Coleman, an ex-F.B.I. agent who retired last July, because of asthma, scoffed at the idea that a C.I.A. agent was now having compunctions about renditions. The C.I.A., Coleman said, liked rendition from the start. “They loved that these guys would just disappear off the books, and never be heard of again,” he said. “They were proud of it.”

For ten years, Coleman worked closely with the C.I.A. on counter-terrorism cases, including the Embassy attacks in Kenya and Tanzania. His methodical style of detective work, in which interrogations were aimed at forging relationships with detainees, became unfashionable after September 11th, in part because the government was intent on extracting information as quickly as possible, in order to prevent future attacks. Yet the more patient approach used by Coleman and other agents had yielded major successes. In the Embassy-bombings case, they helped convict four Al Qaeda operatives on three hundred and two criminal counts; all four men pleaded guilty to serious terrorism charges. The confessions the F.B.I. agents elicited, and the trial itself, which ended in May, 2001, created an invaluable public record about Al Qaeda, including details about its funding mechanisms, its internal structure, and its intention to obtain weapons of mass destruction. (The political leadership in Washington, unfortunately, did not pay sufficient attention.)

Coleman is a political nonpartisan with a law-and-order mentality. His eldest son is a former Army Ranger who served in Afghanistan. Yet Coleman was troubled by the Bush Administration’s New Paradigm. Torture, he said, “has become bureaucratized.” Bad as the policy of rendition was before September 11th, Coleman said, “afterward, it really went out of control.” He explained, “Now, instead of just sending people to third countries, we’re holding them ourselves. We’re taking people, and keeping them in our own custody in third countries. That’s an enormous problem.” Egypt, he pointed out, at least had an established legal system, however harsh. “There was a process there,” Coleman said. “But what’s our process? We have no method over there other than our laws—and we’ve decided to ignore them. What are we now, the Huns? If you don’t talk to us, we’ll kill you?”

From the beginning of the rendition program, Coleman said, there was no doubt that Egypt engaged in torture. He recalled the case of a suspect in the first World Trade Center bombing who fled to Egypt. The U.S. requested his return, and the Egyptians handed him over—wrapped head to toe in duct tape, like a mummy. (In another incident, an Egyptian with links to Al Qaeda who had coöperated with the U.S. government in a terrorism trial was picked up in Cairo and imprisoned by Egyptian authorities until U.S. diplomats secured his release. For days, he had been chained to a toilet, where guards had urinated on him.)

Under such circumstances, it might seem difficult for the U.S. government to legally justify dispatching suspects to Egypt. But Coleman said that since September 11th the C.I.A. “has seemed to think it’s operating under different rules, that it has extralegal abilities outside the U.S.” Agents, he said, have “told me that they have their own enormous office of general counsel that rarely tells them no. Whatever they do is all right. It all takes place overseas.”

Coleman was angry that lawyers in Washington were redefining the parameters of counter-terrorism interrogations. “Have any of these guys ever tried to talk to someone who’s been deprived of his clothes?” he asked. “He’s going to be ashamed, and humiliated, and cold. He’ll tell you anything you want to hear to get his clothes back. There’s no value in it.” Coleman said that he had learned to treat even the most despicable suspects as if there were “a personal relationship, even if you can’t stand them.” He said that many of the suspects he had interrogated expected to be tortured, and were stunned to learn that they had rights under the American system. Due process made detainees more compliant, not less, Coleman said. He had also found that a defendant’s right to legal counsel was beneficial not only to suspects but also to law-enforcement officers. Defense lawyers frequently persuaded detainees to coöperate with prosecutors, in exchange for plea agreements. “The lawyers show these guys there’s a way out,” Coleman said. “It’s human nature. People don’t coöperate with you unless they have some reason to.” He added, “Brutalization doesn’t work. We know that. Besides, you lose your soul.”

[...]


That's about half the article. Can't continue since it's too long. I highly recommend y'all to finish it.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?050214fa_fact6

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
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Nice work Ramo.

It make me so that this isn't a top story all across the nation!!!! This has been going on for a long time but it just gets keeps getting buried.

"Outsourcing" torture is done so people can still feel morally good about what we are doing in this world.

I'm glad to see it's starting to get some more air time.

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quote:
Originally posted by Ted Striker


No, and there is the flaw of your entire argument, and you just demonstrated exactly what I was talking about.

You are trying to convolute the issue down with so much legal gobblety gook and paperwork trying to find some little loophole to feel good morally about mistreating prisioners.

The bottom line:

It's torture, and it's wrong, plain and simple.


The way you say "mistreating" prisoners does not make the critical distinction that I am making. I say that using coercion on enemy combatants to obtain critical information that will save lives and lead to the capture of OBL and other terrorists is justified. It has to be on the orders of the president. It has to be necessary. Otherwise it is not justified and should be outlawed.

I think your Democrat spokesmen ought to get on national TV and say that they would never use coercion in interrogating enemy prisoners for the purpose I just gave. The vast majority of Americans would draw the necessary conclusion that Democrats will not prosecute the war on terror with any seriousness. There can be no other conclusion that any reasonable person can draw.

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Coercion and inhuman treatment, degrading treatement, and torture are vastly different things! If you don't think this is torture, this would easily fall under inhumane treatment (as were much less instances called by the European Court on Human Rights back in 1980s against the UK on their treatment of IRA members).

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Ramo, I briefly scanned that New Yorker article. The obvious problem with the article is that the person handed over to Syria was a Syrian citizen. I remember this from the controversy about this guy at the time. I suspect that other prisioners handed over to Egypt or elsewhere are citizens of the country to which they were released by US authorities.

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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Coercion and inhuman treatment, degrading treatement, and torture are vastly different things! If you don't think this is torture, this would easily fall under inhumane treatment (as were much less instances called by the European Court on Human Rights back in 1980s against the UK on their treatment of IRA members).


Finally, someone who actually listens to an argument. Congress has outlawed the use of torture consistent with the CAT obligation. What we use in interrogation of al Qaeda terrorists is what the European court determined to be coercive techniques that are not toture. The "memo" was concerned with the legal obligations under the Act and the CAT. I was not concerned with complying with leftist ideas about what torture is or is not. The only question on the table was the LAW.

Ramo is offline Ramo
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Copy from the other thread:

He was a Canadian citizen of Syrian birth who was coming back from a vacation from Tunisia, was transferring planes in New York (I.E. he was not an illegal immigrant), was picked up by the US, and sent to Syria to be tortured for something like two years. He only got out due to the efforts of the Canadian gov't.

Ramo is offline Ramo
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quote:
Finally, someone who actually listens to an argument. Congress has outlawed the use of torture consistent with the CAT obligation. What we use in interrogation of al Qaeda terrorists is what the European court determined to be coercive techniques that are not toture. The "memo" was concerned with the legal obligations under the Act and the CAT. I was not concerned with complying with leftist ideas about what torture is or is not. The only question on the table was the LAW.


That case was decades ago, in 1974. As Imran stated, more recent cases definitely contradict Gonzales' ideas.

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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
Copy from the other thread:

He was a Canadian citizen of Syrian birth who was coming back from a vacation from Tunisia, was transferring planes in New York (I.E. he was not an illegal immigrant), was picked up by the US, and sent to Syria to be tortured for something like two years. He only got out due to the efforts of the Canadian gov't.


The "to be tortured" is, of course, pure speculation. The fact remains the person was Syrian.

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quote:
What we use in interrogation of al Qaeda terrorists is what the European court determined to be coercive techniques that are not toture.




Aside from what Ramo has said, the tactics used in Britain were not as severe as the ones we are using, and the ECHR declared it to be 'inhumane treatment' which is ALSO BANNED BY THE CONVENTION AGAINST TORTURE (whose full name is the "Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment", btw).

quote:
he "to be tortured" is, of course, pure speculation.


Except for the fact that he WAS TORTURED!

quote:
The fact remains the person was Syrian.


Um no... he renounced Syrian citizenship because of persecution (ironic, no?). He was definetly not a Syrian anymore, unless we are judging people's views based on their ethnicity.

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quote:
Originally posted by Ned


The "to be tortured" is, of course, pure speculation. The fact remains the person was Syrian.


Of course, the 'to be killed' is pure speculation. Until the person actually is.

Then we'll consider that their case might have had some merit after all.

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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
What we use in interrogation of al Qaeda terrorists is what the European court determined to be coercive techniques that are not toture.




Aside from what Ramo has said, the tactics used in Britain were not as severe as the ones we are using, and the ECHR declared it to be 'inhumane treatment' which is ALSO BANNED BY THE CONVENTION AGAINST TORTURE (whose full name is the "Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment", btw).

quote:
he "to be tortured" is, of course, pure speculation.


Except for the fact that he WAS TORTURED!

quote:
The fact remains the person was Syrian.


Um no... he renounced Syrian citizenship because of persecution (ironic, no?). He was definetly not a Syrian anymore, unless we are judging people's views based on their ethnicity.


1) Severe is in the eye of the beholder. What we are doing in Gitmo is very consistent with Ireland v. UK.

2) Inhumane treatment is not subject to criminal penalties in the US. See the "memo." The CAT is NOT self-executing. Congress implemented thru a statute which was the subject of the "memo."

3) We are hardly going to allow a member of al Qaeda to go to Canada. Syria was a proper alternative.

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Molly, yeah, "to be killed" as in al Qaeda in Canada will soon kill Americans. The man was al Qaeda. He was returned to his homeland.

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quote:
1) Severe is in the eye of the beholder. What we are doing in Gitmo is very consistent with Ireland v. UK.


It actually goes far beyond that. And since those rulings, the definition of torture has encompassed that behavior, especially since the Convention on Torture was passed afterwards.

quote:
2) Inhumane treatment is not subject to criminal penalties in the US. See the "memo." The CAT is NOT self-executing. Congress implemented thru a statute which was the subject of the "memo."


When Congress implimented the Torture statute, it said the Convention did not go far enough and added using truth serum as a part of torture. Now, it seems to me that most defenders of Bush would never consider using truth serum as torture, but the government did indeed do so. Since the definition was expanded from the Convention, I'm sure that what teh ECHR defined as inhuman treatment, would be considered torture under the US statute.

quote:
3) We are hardly going to allow a member of al Qaeda to go to Canada. Syria was a proper alternative.




If he was an Al Queda member, why did Syria release him saying they got nothing on him?

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned


1) Severe is in the eye of the beholder. What we are doing in Gitmo is very consistent with Ireland v. UK.


Molly can you take this one and educate the man?

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

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He's beyond hope, Ted.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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Ned just doesn't have the ability to see fault with Republicans. If this were a Democrat administration Ned's opinion would be quite different, I'm sure.

Last edited by Kidicious on 13-02-2005 at 01:18

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For what it's worth here are some Conniticut election results:

Kerry 54% Bush 44%
for those who think the election had rigged machines, they didn't have many in Conneticut:
2004 exit polls Kerry 55% Bush 44%

2000
Gore/Liberman 56%
Bush 38%

Senate:
Liebeman 63%
Opponent 34%

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:26
  Old Post 14-02-2005 03:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
1) Severe is in the eye of the beholder. What we are doing in Gitmo is very consistent with Ireland v. UK.


It actually goes far beyond that. And since those rulings, the definition of torture has encompassed that behavior, especially since the Convention on Torture was passed afterwards.

quote:
2) Inhumane treatment is not subject to criminal penalties in the US. See the "memo." The CAT is NOT self-executing. Congress implemented thru a statute which was the subject of the "memo."


When Congress implimented the Torture statute, it said the Convention did not go far enough and added using truth serum as a part of torture. Now, it seems to me that most defenders of Bush would never consider using truth serum as torture, but the government did indeed do so. Since the definition was expanded from the Convention, I'm sure that what teh ECHR defined as inhuman treatment, would be considered torture under the US statute.

quote:
3) We are hardly going to allow a member of al Qaeda to go to Canada. Syria was a proper alternative.




If he was an Al Queda member, why did Syria release him saying they got nothing on him?


You might do well to actually read the memo on the legislative history. The Ireland v. UK case was the case relied upon by Reagan to define the difference between torture and mere coercion. Congress relied upon Reagans stated explanation in drafting the law. Ireland v. UK is hardly outdated. It is the law.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:26
  Old Post 14-02-2005 03:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
Ned just doesn't have the ability to see fault with Republicans. If this were a Democrat administration Ned's opinion would be quite different, I'm sure.


You guys crack me up. I have many times said I backed Clinton on foreign policy. Many times. And this is what I get?

I think much of the pettiness coming from the left is pure partisan politics. I think foreign policy should be bipartisan. But, since Vietnam, it hasn't been.

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
Emperor
United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:26
  Old Post 14-02-2005 04:06 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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Yeah right!

You have routinely bashed Democrats in this thread.

You also tried to associate them with me, and I'm not even a Democcrat.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:26
  Old Post 14-02-2005 07:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
I think much of the pettiness coming from the left is pure partisan politics. I think foreign policy should be bipartisan. But, since Vietnam, it hasn't been.
and Vietnam was a monumental mistake...

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
Emperor
United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:26
  Old Post 14-02-2005 07:29 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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Ned blames anti-war protesters for the poor outcome of the Vietnam experience.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:26
  Old Post 14-02-2005 11:03
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quote:
You might do well to actually read the memo on the legislative history.


I've read it. It's legal crap. Ask the legal scholars around the country. It's very bad scholarship.

quote:
The Ireland v. UK case was the case relied upon by Reagan to define the difference between torture and mere coercion. Congress relied upon Reagans stated explanation in drafting the law. Ireland v. UK is hardly outdated. It is the law.


That's nice, but legislative history is bunk. Who really knows who each Senator and Congressman voted on the law? Just because the administration used it doesn't mean crap, especially when you had a Democrat Congress, who may not have cared about the administration's reasons. What matters is the text and the text alone.

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
Emperor
United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:26
  Old Post 14-02-2005 11:35 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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Word

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:26
  Old Post 14-02-2005 11:37
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I still have trouble believing that the USA now has a Hispanic Attorney General. I'm proud to see how far we've come and thank Bush for being the man who brought us here.

Bush
Gonzales
America

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
Emperor
United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:26
  Old Post 14-02-2005 11:39 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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Was a good troll attempt though

molly bloom is offline molly bloom
Prince
Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:26
  Old Post 14-02-2005 17:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Molly, yeah, "to be killed" as in al Qaeda in Canada will soon kill Americans. The man was al Qaeda. He was returned to his homeland.



He was? Al Qaeda is a nation state?


Stap me vitals. I missed out on that independence day parade.


The burqa'd cheerleaders with hand grenade pom poms must have been bootylicious.

shawnmmcc is offline shawnmmcc
Prince

Jan 2003
time: 00:26
  Old Post 14-02-2005 19:22
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Imran, as I noted your neo-conservative sig - and thank you for the honesty, unlike Ned's weaseling on this one - you realize Gonzales is being groomed as the next SCOTUS nominee. From your last post I assume you are a strict constructionist? What do you think of the kind of decisions/agenda Gonzales will bring to the court, especially given his record in Texas on their Supreme CourT? Yes, in any other circumstance you could accuse me of throwing a red herring or straw man argument at you here, but he IS the darling of many neo-cons (versus genuine Barry Goldwater conservatives). I just couldn't resist - and remember I'm gave Scalia his due on the Habeus Corpus case earlier in the thread.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:26
  Old Post 14-02-2005 21:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Ted Striker
Yeah right!

You have routinely bashed Democrats in this thread.

You also tried to associate them with me, and I'm not even a Democcrat.


Ted, as with Republicans, I think there have been good Democrat presidents and lousy Democrat presidents. I would rank Kennedy, FDR and Clinton as good presidents. I would rank Carter and Johnson is very bad presidents. The primary difference between the two groups of presidents is how they approached foreign-policy. One group stood tall for America. The other group were a pack of appeasers, unworthy to be presidents of the United States.

Any president who is unwilling to do what is necessary to protect United States is not worthy to be president of the United States. I think most Democrats understand that; and their opposition to Bush on this issue of using coercion in interrogating Al Qaeda prisoners is pure politics.

 
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