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Wittlich is offline Wittlich

Emperor
A Wyandot lost in "The City" SF,CA
Dec 2000
time: 21:26
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Greenhouse effect could make Mars livable Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Greenhouse effect could make Mars livable
Study claims artificial gases would warm up climate

The best way to make Mars habitable would be to inject synthetic greenhouse gases into its atmosphere, researchers said Thursday.

The stuff could be shipped to Mars or manufactured there.

Scientists and science-fiction authors have long pondered terraforming Mars, melting the vast stores of ice in its polar caps to create an environment suitable for humans. The topic is highly controversial.

Some think earthlings have no right to mess with the climate of another planet. Others see Mars as a refuge for people who might need to flee this world as conditions deteriorate. Another argument holds that Mars was likely warmer and wetter in its distant past, and it might have harbored life, so bringing it back to a previous state makes sense.

Among the ideas for how to warm Mars: sprinkling stuff near the poles that would absorb more sunlight, or placing large mirrors in orbit around the planet to reflect more sunlight onto it.

Jump-start the warming
The new research suggests that forcing global warming by injecting greenhouse gases may be the best way to terraform, should governments decide to do so. The conditions warming Earth could be harnessed to transform Mars, the scientists determined.

Jump-starting global warming in a planet-sized laboratory would be a boon to science in some respects.

"Bringing life to Mars and studying its growth would contribute to our understanding of evolution, and the ability of life to adapt and proliferate on other worlds," says Margarita Marinova at NASA's Ames Research Center, where the study was done. "Since warming Mars effectively reverts it to its past, more habitable state, this would give any possibly dormant life on Mars the chance to be revived and develop further."

The research is presented in the February issue of the Journal of Geophysical Research-Planets, published by the American Geophysical Union.

With a very thin atmosphere and being farther from the sun, Mars is much colder than Earth. There is no evidence for any liquid water presently on the surface. Liquid water is considered essential to life as we know it.

The polar regions contain vast stores of water ice and carbon dioxide, or dry ice. Theorists have said in the past that melting the poles might thicken the atmosphere, which like a blanket would insulate the surface and eventually create a more Earthlike climate.

Studies suggest Mars had surface water and bouts of rain in its early history.

Gas of choice
The new research modeled how artificially produced greenhouse gases would affect Martian temperature and melt water ice and carbon dioxide ice at the poles.

Artificially created gases could be 10,000 times more effective than carbon dioxide in warming up the Red Planet, the study determined. The gases that would work the best contain fluorine and carbon, and could be made from elements readily available on Mars, Marinova and her colleagues found. (They said the best gas for the job would be octafluoropropane, which is used on Earth for refrigeration and semiconductor fabrication.)

Adding 300 parts per million of the gas mixture into the Martian air would trigger a runaway greenhouse effect, according to the models. The polar ice sheets that would slowly evaporate. The newly released carbon dioxide would cause further warming and melting. Atmospheric pressure would rise.

The process would take hundreds or thousands of years to complete, the scientists report.

© 2005 Space.com. All rights reserved. More from Space.com.

LINK: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6908408/

I think this is a very intriguing idea! What does everyone else think?

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
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DRoseDARs is offline DRoseDARs

Prince
"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
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  Old Post 04-02-2005 09:36
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It think Mars should be studied extensively for a long period of time before any decision for any form of deliberate terraforming is made.

reds4ever is offline reds4ever
Prince
of the Spion Kop
Mar 2001
time: 05:26
  Old Post 04-02-2005 09:38
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Re: Greenhouse effect could make Mars livable Inflate your Upload Space

quote:
Originally posted by Wittlich
I think this is a very intriguing idea! What does everyone else think?


I,too, think it is a very intriguing idea. Also think your original post is far too long

DRoseDARs is offline DRoseDARs

Prince
"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
time: 21:26
  Old Post 04-02-2005 09:40
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Remove this text

The OP is an article, therefore it is generally permitted. Besides, this isn't one of Pekka's threads...

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

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May 1999
time: 13:26
  Old Post 04-02-2005 09:46
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Just imagine, we can suck up the greenhouse gases from earth's atmosphere, and use them to warm up Mars. Kill two birds with one stone

I don't know how much atmospheric retention Mars has though, because it doesn't have the sort of "shield" earth has. Besides, it has a much lower mass.

Heresson is offline Heresson
King
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Jun 2000
time: 06:26
  Old Post 04-02-2005 09:57
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What for? The sun shall swallow both planets anyway

DRoseDARs is offline DRoseDARs

Prince
"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
time: 21:26
  Old Post 04-02-2005 09:59
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In a few billion years...

Heresson is offline Heresson
King
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Jun 2000
time: 06:26
  Old Post 04-02-2005 10:44
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Humanity must build its own planet independant from any star and safe until then.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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One step at a time...

Heresson is offline Heresson
King
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Jun 2000
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  Old Post 04-02-2005 11:32
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We must have a vision!
A great great moveable planet in the shape of frog.
Does it sound right? You think it could make the crowds go crazy with joy?

techumseh is offline techumseh
King
of the frozen North.
Apr 1999
time: 22:26
  Old Post 04-02-2005 11:33 Visit techumseh's homepage!
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Who is going to stand up for the Martian environment?

DaShi is offline DaShi
Prince
The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:26
  Old Post 04-02-2005 11:35
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Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I'm sure there'll be some.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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It's a cold, dead ball of rock right now.

techumseh is offline techumseh
King
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Apr 1999
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Do cold, dead balls of rock have rights? Are you so sure that there is no down side to ecological experimentation on an entire planet? Isn't one fubar planet enough?

DRoseDARs is offline DRoseDARs

Prince
"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
time: 21:26
  Old Post 04-02-2005 11:52
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My concern is for science being served, not Humanity's need for pretty flowering plants and fluffy bunnies. Mars presents a different climate to scientists to study. I'm thinking of the geologic features as well. Radically changing the atmosphere will irrevicably alter the landscape. Scientists ought to be able to study Mars before we drastically change it to suit our biological and psychological needs. Who knows if we'll ever reach the stars and have an opportunity to study such climates or geographies again. Then there's also the matter of any native Martian life, either presently living or ancient. Might it not behoove use to research such things before tinkering with the planet? I'm all for terraform Mars one day, but in due time. Far too often Humanity has sought to change things without using proper caution or studying what they're doing before they do it and thus paying a price for it later.

Geronimo is offline Geronimo
King
st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:26
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quote:
Originally posted by DRoseDARs
It think Mars should be studied extensively for a long period of time before any decision for any form of deliberate terraforming is made.


I think it's not so much important as to how long we study it as to how comprehensive the data collected is. Mars would require very intensive and comprehensive global scientific surveying before any signficant terraforming or else we would lose important data forever due to the distortions of direct and indirect effects of the climate change.

Geronimo is offline Geronimo
King
st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:26
  Old Post 04-02-2005 11:56
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quote:
Originally posted by techumseh
Do cold, dead balls of rock have rights? Are you so sure that there is no down side to ecological experimentation on an entire planet? Isn't one fubar planet enough?


We already have plenty of fubared planets in our solar system so what's wrong with one more? Venus, Mercury and pluto are pretty severely fubared and mars probably already fits into that category. There is in fact little that humanity could do to make the environment on Mars much worse than it already is.

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
Emperor
of Ice Cream
Mar 2000
time: 23:26
  Old Post 04-02-2005 11:56
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Suffering from ads?

It will be more useful to us if it stays that way.

No environment to damage = more efficient exploitation.

DRoseDARs is offline DRoseDARs

Prince
"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
time: 21:26
  Old Post 04-02-2005 11:59
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It is a matter of how long we study it. We've had many millenia to informally study Earth and only a few centuries to apply the scientific method to our observations vs. we haven't even stepped foot on Mars and our minimally-equiped probes have been there only about 30 years. It takes time to collect data, especially comprehensive data. I don't think it would takes centuries more to study Mars as well as we have Earth given our current state of research ability and the advancements we're sure to make in the next few decades, but certainly decades will be needed after we get there before we've given ourselves enough time to satisfactorily study the planet in its "pristine" form. Then we can and probably should consider terraforming.

Geronimo is offline Geronimo
King
st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:26
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quote:
Originally posted by DRoseDARs
My concern is for science being served, not Humanity's need for pretty flowering plants and fluffy bunnies. Mars presents a different climate to scientists to study. I'm thinking of the geologic features as well. Radically changing the atmosphere will irrevicably alter the landscape. Scientists ought to be able to study Mars before we drastically change it to suit our biological and psychological needs. Who knows if we'll ever reach the stars and have an opportunity to study such climates or geographies again. Then there's also the matter of any native Martian life, either presently living or ancient. Might it not behoove use to research such things before tinkering with the planet? I'm all for terraform Mars one day, but in due time. Far too often Humanity has sought to change things without using proper caution or studying what they're doing before they do it and thus paying a price for it later.


I should have read the whole thread before I posted

Well said.

In any case we would want to collect extremely comprehensive data before starting even if only to guarentee the terraforming would work so hopefully the data collection effort wouldn't need to interfere with a terraforming effort in the least.

Dis is offline Dis
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Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
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mars will never be livable- not without constant resupply ships from earth.

DRoseDARs is offline DRoseDARs

Prince
"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Monk
It will be more useful to us if it stays that way.

No environment to damage = more efficient exploitation.


I'd be wary of mining operations as well. Even though it isn't our atmosphere, it's still an atmosphere. Industrial processes and mining processes can (and often do) produce greenhouse gasses...exactly what we ought not be pumping into Mars' atmosphere just yet, at least not before scientists in various fields have had enough time to study the planet without significant changes.

DRoseDARs is offline DRoseDARs

Prince
"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
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  Old Post 04-02-2005 12:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Dissident
mars will never be livable- not without constant resupply ships from earth.


Then there's that line of reasoning. No way to prove nor disprove it until we try, but certainly worth considering.

I disagree. Initially yes, no colony would be 100% self-sufficient. But given enough time and enough concerted effort to terraforming, it should be possible to terraform Mars enough to be Human-livable. Pardon the pun, but I'm not holding my breath for a Human-breathable atmosphere on Mars, but a carbon-heavy atmosphere may be a better alternative that'll warm the planet and make plants happy. I'd consider terraforming Mars such that I need nothing more than an oxygen mask and a heavy coat to walk on the surface a success.

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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quote:
Originally posted by DRoseDARs


I'd be wary of mining operations as well. Even though it isn't our atmosphere, it's still an atmosphere. Industrial processes and mining processes can (and often do) produce greenhouse gasses...exactly what we ought not be pumping into Mars' atmosphere just yet, at least not before scientists in various fields have had enough time to study the planet without significant changes.


Given the rate at which these things seem to go, I expect there will be plenty of time for research, even if we attempt to industrialize Mars at the fastest possible rate.

It is an entire planet, after all.

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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Terraforming will do a hell of a lot more damage to potential xenogeology and xenobiology studies than any amount of mining that we would be capable of.

techumseh is offline techumseh
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Apr 1999
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The arrogance! The arrogance! It is to weep.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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quote:
Originally posted by DRoseDARs
My concern is for science being served, not Humanity's need for pretty flowering plants and fluffy bunnies.


That's nonsense and you know it

quote:
Originally posted by DRoseDARs
Mars presents a different climate to scientists to study. I'm thinking of the geologic features as well. Radically changing the atmosphere will irrevicably alter the landscape.


We got plenty of cold, dead balls of rocks around in the solar system. Bring on the greenhouse gases, I say.

monolith94 is offline monolith94
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New England
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None of this is feasible within our life times of course. And it'll be many lifetimes before such a plan is economically viable.

My question is, if you start a greenhouse effect, how would you stop it? We wouldn't want Mars to become another Venus.

DRoseDARs is offline DRoseDARs

Prince
"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
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  Old Post 04-02-2005 12:32
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quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Monk


Given the rate at which these things seem to go, I expect there will be plenty of time for research, even if we attempt to industrialize Mars at the fastest possible rate.

It is an entire planet, after all.


Ergo my wariness and not opposition. Frankly, mining the Asteroid Belt would be more efficient and profitable imo. I have no facts to back this up.

 
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