04-02-2005 21:44									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo planets are naturally ****ed up you know. If humans **** up the earth we will just have returned it to it's original state. I don't know why people believe it's so easy to **** up a hostile planetary environment.

	04-02-2005 22:06									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Just imagine, we can suck up the greenhouse gases from earth's atmosphere, and use them to warm up Mars. Kill two birds with one stone I don't know how much atmospheric retention Mars has though, because it doesn't have the sort of "shield" earth has. Besides, it has a much lower mass.

Right. I understand Mars lost most of its atmosphere when it lost its magnetic shield. The key, therefor, to bringing the atmosphere back and to generally making Mars habitable in view of all the radiation that hits its surface because it has no magnetic shield, is to restart the magnetic shield --- somehow.

	04-02-2005 22:38									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Right. I understand Mars lost most of its atmosphere when it lost its magnetic shield. The key, therefor, to bringing the atmosphere back and to generally making Mars habitable in view of all the radiation that hits its surface because it has no magnetic shield, is to restart the magnetic shield --- somehow.

A large enough magnetic field is such a large undertaking we might just as well put an atmosphere containing envelope around the planet instead.

think dyson sphere only transparent and enclosing a planet so a hell of a lot smaller

	04-02-2005 23:02									#94
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Well, one of the first things we will have to do when we land on Mars is to investigate the state of its core. Why did the magnetic shield stop? Did the core just cool too much?

Regardless, I think there is little hope of ever making Mars habitable outside of small protected zones where some sort of shield exists or is erected.

	04-02-2005 23:41									#95
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Obsessing about mining isn't going to help space exploration. We've got more than adequate metal supplies as it is. Even if it is economically feasible to recover metals from space, the glut of cheap metal would do more harm to humanity than good.

It'd be like if we really, really went out to increase crop harvests - ploughing up gardens and nature reserves, intensively farming the oceans, GMing the heck out of everything we could, etc. We'd have more food. And we'd be the poorer for it.

	04-02-2005 23:57									#96
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Sandman, the main reason for space exploration, in my view, is colonization. It is just that Mars is not a very good candidate because of its lack of a magnetic shield.

	05-02-2005 00:09									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Mars will survive the sun's red giant phase though its atmosphere will be burned away.

either way, the sun will not be able to support life eventually.

The human species will face certain extinction if we don't leave this solar system.

	05-02-2005 00:12									#98
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That's why we need to build the giant frog-planet.

	05-02-2005 07:17									#99
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi If there are bacteria living on Venus, it could be possible that they came from Earth.

There are environments no carbon-based units can survive, smply because they are too energetic.

	05-02-2005 09:59									#100
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Right. And most of Venus falls under that category.

	05-02-2005 10:00									#101
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I think terraforming Mars is possible, but I also believe it would be a complete waste of time and resources.

Our future as a starfaring people lies in sealed environments.

	05-02-2005 10:27									#102
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh The arrogance! The arrogance! It is to weep.

I am rather fond of arrogance myself. Besides, this seems like the sort of thing one has to actually do to get a proper measure of.

	06-02-2005 01:53									#103
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This is not a new theory, I remember reading about it back in... I think it was 1996. The basic idea was to set up well-isolated human-populated biospheres on the surface; then gain energy to them by, not using solar panels, but burning coal and venting pollution directly into the atmosphere. The problem in this would be that you'd lose massive amounts of energy when trying to transport the huge amounts of coal and O2 needed from Earth. Heck, we'd need a space elevator of some sort and colossal freighters with ion engines in order to execute it.

	06-02-2005 03:33									#104
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quote: Originally posted by VJ This is not a new theory, I remember reading about it back in... I think it was 1996. The basic idea was to set up well-isolated human-populated biospheres on the surface; then gain energy to them by, not using solar panels, but burning coal and venting pollution directly into the atmosphere. The problem in this would be that you'd lose massive amounts of energy when trying to transport the huge amounts of coal and O2 needed from Earth. Heck, we'd need a space elevator of some sort and colossal freighters with ion engines in order to execute it.

Another possibility would be to find a comet or asteroid that was composed of frozen greenhouse gasses and divert it for collision with Mars.

	06-02-2005 04:24									#105
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Why not use solar power?

	06-02-2005 06:15									#106
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Why not use solar power?

He said in the same sentence to vent the greenhouse gasses directly into the atmosphere. Solar Panels don't do that.

Also, Mars' distance from Sol might make panels much less efficient for larger-scale uses than simple rovers.

	06-02-2005 06:23									#107
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He didn't mention greenhouse gases, just pollution.

	06-02-2005 06:36									#108
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He's Finnish. What can I say?

	06-02-2005 06:41									#109
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That he's close to Santa?

	06-02-2005 06:45									#110
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Not everyone in Finland is close to Santa.

	06-02-2005 06:47									#111
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I hate to burst everyone's bubble, but in addition to supplying enough Oxygen gas to breath and warming the atmopsphere with some sort of "greenhouse gas" there also has to be a generous amount of inert gas, such as Nitrogen, in the atmosphere. If the atmosphere is more than 30% oxygen spontaneous combustion will occur. If the CO2 concentration is too high humans and other animals will be unable to blow off the normal amount of CO2 via respiration. CO2 will build up in their blood and they will die of acidosis. An enormous amount of inert gas is therefore required to dilute the oxygen and the greenhouse gas.

	06-02-2005 06:49									#112
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Yeah, we'd have to find a nitrogen comet

Actually, would hydrogen serve as a (not-so-inert, but whatever) substitute, forgetting plants for a second?

	06-02-2005 07:05									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove I hate to burst everyone's bubble, but in addition to supplying enough Oxygen gas to breath and warming the atmopsphere with some sort of "greenhouse gas" there also has to be a generous amount of inert gas, such as Nitrogen, in the atmosphere. If the atmosphere is more than 30% oxygen spontaneous combustion will occur. If the CO2 concentration is too high humans and other animals will be unable to blow off the normal amount of CO2 via respiration. CO2 will build up in their blood and they will die of acidosis. An enormous amount of inert gas is therefore required to dilute the oxygen and the greenhouse gas.

That's all the more reason I support a carbon dioxide terraforming route over an oxygen one.

	06-02-2005 07:53									#114
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How do you figure that?

	06-02-2005 08:12									#115
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We need plant life more than we need a breathable atmosphere. Making such an atmosphere is going to take a very, very long time but encouraging GM'ed plant life will serve our more immediate needs earlier in the process. As a by-product, of course, they spit out oxygen so they'd still serve in that process. But if the planet is a frigid wasteland, nothing is served by giving it a breathable atmosphere. Heating the planet first should be the priority in any terraforming, then approaching the oxygen as a second stage should follow if that's what we want. Like I've said earlier, if I can walk on the Martian surface with nothing more than a heavy coat and an oxygen mask I'd call the terraforming an adequet success.

	06-02-2005 08:14									#116
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Plant life needs animal life, too. Plus, the Doctor's point was that we need a very large quantity of something OTHER than CO2 and oxygen.

	06-02-2005 12:04									#117
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I respectfully disconcur.

	06-02-2005 12:10									#118
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs It think Mars should be studied extensively for a long period of time before any decision for any form of deliberate terraforming is made.

I agree. So let's waite until next Monday the 7th of Feb., 2005.
I will be 61 in March and if we waite to long, I will not be here to see man set foot on Mars. So let's go now.

	06-02-2005 12:15									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Not going to happen. Cos of Mars' lower gravity the atmosphere will bleed away relatively quickly due to brownian motion, and while the half life of the atmosphere will still be relatively high, it's composition would remain too unstable for a pleasant, if not inhabitable environment.

There's another problem. Let's assume they are wildly successful and find a way to terraform Mars so that it is Earth like with rivers, streams, even oceans. Of course humans transplant life onto Mars to make it even ore like Earth. Now comes yet another long term problem.

Hard water stains. Yes, the normal creation of CaCO2, also known as lime stone, is a natural and relatively quick geologic process which consumes large amounts of CO2. Likely the creation of lime stone is as big a carbon sink as all of the Earth's forests but luckily that carbon is recycled by techtonic processes and released again abiet in a process which takes millions of years. Mars, unlike Earth, has no active techtonics so you wouldn't get this recycling and instead CO2 would be continously removed from the system.

	06-02-2005 12:16									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Plant life needs animal life, too. Plus, the Doctor's point was that we need a very large quantity of something OTHER than CO2 and oxygen.

Obviously we need nitrogen.