06-02-2005 13:28									#121
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quote: He didn't mention greenhouse gases, just pollution.

Burning coal doesn't really create pure CO2 as an only result, does it?

quote: I hate to burst everyone's bubble...

Don't worry, you're not bursting my bubbles at least... there are many other problems than the one you mentioned, the process described in that theory was quite complex and needed huge amounts of investment over a long timespan... I just quickly wanted to point out that the article which Wittlich posted doesn't contain anything particularly new or, say, revolutionary.

	06-02-2005 14:52									#122
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...

	06-02-2005 14:58									#123
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?

Look, can you find me a mine somewhere which digs coal so pure that it's 100% carbon? Or is there a translation error somewhere along my lines?

	07-02-2005 03:40									#124
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I still think the way to go would be to restart the magnetic core in some fashion and divert asteroids/comets as necessary. A small amount of energy diverting an asertoid with the proper materials brings enormous dividends in a relatively short time.

It it just that I cannot imagine how to restart the magnetic core.

	07-02-2005 03:43									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Obviously we need nitrogen.

Yes, he mentioned that

Where the hell are we going to get a huge volume of nitrogen? We can't exactly bottle and ship it from earth, and I don't think there are massive nitrogenous asteroids flying through space

	07-02-2005 03:44									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I still think the way to go would be to restart the magnetic core in some fashion and divert asteroids/comets as necessary. A small amount of energy diverting an asertoid with the proper materials brings enormous dividends in a relatively short time. It it just that I cannot imagine how to restart the magnetic core.

We should have a submarine-esque vehicle deliver a 100-megaton nuke!

	07-02-2005 03:44									#127
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Maybe we could send all the Christians to Mars.

	07-02-2005 03:45									#128
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Or to heaven

	07-02-2005 03:47									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I still think the way to go would be to restart the magnetic core in some fashion and divert asteroids/comets as necessary. A small amount of energy diverting an asertoid with the proper materials brings enormous dividends in a relatively short time. It it just that I cannot imagine how to restart the magnetic core.

By using a turbocharged manned drill bit loaded with nukes. These nukes would be deployed in a non-specific but important way such that when they blow it'll be a bumpy and harrowing ride for the 2 remaining crew members (one man and one woman for whom a contrived, romanitcally-charged atmosphere has emerged during the course of the mission; romances that develope under stressful situations like disasters rarely last) as they frantically race to the surface to escape the blast. Hell, they might find geodes the size of small cities as they go along.

	07-02-2005 04:01									#130
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You lose

	07-02-2005 04:08									#131
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i started typing mine up before any of j00s, so stfu n00b!!11!!

	07-02-2005 09:06									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Plant life needs animal life, too.

Not necessarily. We could use algae and bacteria, for example.

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Plus, the Doctor's point was that we need a very large quantity of something OTHER than CO2 and oxygen.

That's okay, nitrogen is easy to get.

	07-02-2005 09:51									#133
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quote: Not necessarily. We could use algae and bacteria, for example.

These algae would grow in Mars' enormous oceans, right?

quote: That's okay, nitrogen is easy to get.

From where? The special belt of nitrogenous asteroids?

	07-02-2005 10:03									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Not necessarily. We could use algae and bacteria, for example. These algae would grow in Mars' enormous oceans, right?

As DRose pointed out, the first step is to warm up Mars.

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker From where? The special belt of nitrogenous asteroids?

The polar caps of Mars is likely to contain a fair amount of nitrogen, as volcanic activities were (still are) a major source. Then you can oxidise compounds such as ammonia. Comets can be a last resort.

	07-02-2005 11:51									#135
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Terraforming Mars is a vanity project that will only take time and resources away from other, far more deserving projects, and if successful, will hobble our efforts on many of those other projects.

	07-02-2005 11:55									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger As DRose pointed out, the first step is to warm up Mars.

With what?

quote: The polar caps of Mars is likely to contain a fair amount of nitrogen, as volcanic activities were (still are) a major source. Then you can oxidise compounds such as ammonia.

How can you get enough to make AN ENTIRE ATMOSPHERE - to get the oxygen is easy, oxygen is in water is in comets. Carbon dioxide is very, very common on mars.

quote: Comets can be a last resort.

How would you get nitrogen from a comet?

	07-02-2005 11:56									#137
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Terraforming Mars is a vanity project that will only take time and resources away from other, far more deserving projects, and if successful, will hobble our efforts on many of those other projects.

Why?

For starters, we don't know how to do terraforming and will need to conduct pilot projects. Mars is the best choice because it is relatively simple for the task. It's big enough to hold an atmosphere, close enough to the Sun and us, and got some stuff on the surface we could use.

	07-02-2005 12:39									#138
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We don't need terraforming, it can only be applied to very narrowly defined worlds (in the habitable zone, sufficient gravity, right geology, etc).

Sealed environments can be used everywhere (that radiation dosen't overwhelm our tech), and will be. They can also be scaled up as much as you like, given practice.

	07-02-2005 12:59									#139
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk We don't need terraforming, it can only be applied to very narrowly defined worlds (in the habitable zone, sufficient gravity, right geology, etc). Sealed environments can be used everywhere (that radiation dosen't overwhelm our tech), and will be. They can also be scaled up as much as you like, given practice.

Sealed environments are much more difficult than it is on the surface. For example, how do you deal with meteors?

A great advantage of an atmosphere is it provides a powerful shield.

	07-02-2005 14:25									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker With what?

The vasts amount of carbon dioxide that froze out of the atmosphere eons ago onto the surface of Mars. Perhaps some could even be scooped from the atmosphere of Venus to start that terraforming process, but that capability is even further in the future beyond our current capabilites.

quote: How can you get enough to make AN ENTIRE ATMOSPHERE - to get the oxygen is easy, oxygen is in water is in comets. Carbon dioxide is very, very common on mars.

Then why'd you ask,"With what?"

quote: How would you get nitrogen from a comet?

I can't answer that. Comets are relatively small compared to a planet - even as small as Mars - and we'd need LOTS of them for them to play a significant role in any terraforming project.

	07-02-2005 14:57									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker How can you get enough to make AN ENTIRE ATMOSPHERE - to get the oxygen is easy, oxygen is in water is in comets. Carbon dioxide is very, very common on mars.

Free nitrogen in earth's atmosphere came either directly through various things such as deep sea vents and volcanic eruptions. I reckon such activities were as dominant on Mars as they were on early earth. Thus, it should be a fair bet to say that there's a good amount of nitrogen locked up on Mars.

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker How would you get nitrogen from a comet?

Smashing them at Mars.

	07-02-2005 18:26									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Sealed environments are much more difficult than it is on the surface. For example, how do you deal with meteors? A great advantage of an atmosphere is it provides a powerful shield.

Not as good as several dozen meters of lithosphere.

	07-02-2005 19:29									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger The polar caps of Mars is likely to contain a fair amount of nitrogen, as volcanic activities were (still are) a major source. Then you can oxidise compounds such as ammonia. Comets can be a last resort.

The big problem is volcanism is supposedly extinct on Mars. A planet's magnetic field is created by the interaction of the liquid and the solid cores but Mar's has almost no magnetic field thus scientists believe there is very little liquid core left. Most of it must have cooled and turned into solid core; this means no tectonics are still active and likely little volcanism is active now since none has been observed in the hundreds of years human astronomers have been watching. Obviously there was a period were tectonics was dead but volconism still existed and that's why hot spot volcano's like Olympus Mons were created but it looks like, geologically speaking, that period is over for Mars.

The implication of this is without volcanism there is no large scale creation of nitrogen and no recycling of CaCO2 so the atmosphere will continually lose large quantities of CO2.

	07-02-2005 21:34									#144
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Not as good as several dozen meters of lithosphere.

You are going to put several million people in a huge underground cave?

	08-02-2005 01:08									#145
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Oerdin gets back to the original point I made. The most critical aspect of terraforming is to have an active, molten core that triggers other processes that make and keep an atmosphere. If we could figure out how to heat Mars' core, we could easily terraform that planet by "natural" processes.

	08-02-2005 01:23									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger You are going to put several million people in a huge underground cave?

We'll be doing that with Luna, Mercury, Titan, probably most of the other major moons, and orbitals as well.

Why make a special case for Mars?

	08-02-2005 01:26									#147
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It'll probably be more like warrens than huge caverns. Easier to control that way.

	08-02-2005 01:44									#148
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What is the surface of Titan like? I understand its atmosphere is even thicker than Earths.

And, what about Europa? That planet seems to be covered by ice over an ocean of water. It might be very habitable, expecially if we could find land, ala, "Waterworld," rising above the sea.

	08-02-2005 02:01									#149
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As far as subsurface habitation on Mars, it is the safest way to colonize the planet given its lack of a substantial atmosphere (very low air pressure means great stress on any dome; thin atmosphere doesn't burn up incoming material such as meteorites).

As far as setting up shop on Europa, it is little different from doing so in Antarctica as much of the moon's surface is ice, though again the atmosphere is very thin - domes not advisable. Titan we're learning about, but my gut feeling is the surface is too unstable for habitation.

As far as settling Luna (Thank you Ned for realizing that there are gajillions of moons in this star system, so we need to give our's a more unique name ) subsurface habitation is again the best option as there is negligable presence of atmosphere, though there is some.

As far as talk about living on the surface of Mars, whether they realize it or not, people do so because of that planet's terraforming prospects. People hate the idea of living underground and domes aren't a whole lot better.

As far as restarting or even just reinvigorating Mars' internal heat: Nukes, nukes, nukes. We've got tens of thousands of them, we can make many more. However, I have my doubts that we'd make much of a difference in that kind of project, not to mention it would likely take hundreds if not thousands of years to get the core spinning sufficiently for a strong magnetic field to emerge.

	08-02-2005 02:14									#150
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all you have to do is push mars towards the sun... just a bit. easy! or wait 4 billion years for the sun to get a little bigger. of course, than titan becomes a place to hang out. and it already has lots of gas.