17-02-2005 05:30									#451
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Yes, we have working poor instead of unemployed people living off of government money. I'd say that's a more than fair trade.

That's an ideological statement, and it is yours. I personally revile the idea that in rich society such as ours, people can be poor despite working. And if, to avoid such a society, we need strong regulations and generous welfare that will be abused by some, then so be it.

	17-02-2005 05:31									#452
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quote: Except our government has no way of knowing who is looking for work, unless they are collecting benefits.

Che: You don't know what you're talking about. They do a survey of households to figure out who is looking for work.

The insured unemployment rate is what you're describing. The insured unemployment rate is something like 2.5% nowadays.

	17-02-2005 05:33									#453
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quote: Except our government has no way of knowing who is looking for work, unless they are collecting benefits.

survey - they called me once, i told them i wanted a job and had been looking for one in the last 4 weeks.

	17-02-2005 05:35									#454
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia the only effect low wage workers have on the economy is a decrease in costs and prices. having on high wage workers would push prices up, but wouldnt necessairly result in unemployment. only when they can make more by not working then if they had worked, do high educated people choose not to be busdrivers

Well, it's not exactly what's happening you know... Unemployment benefits are definitely not good enough to make up for a high paid job, and they can unly suffice for a low paid job if you have a steady illegal income next to them. Once benefits and, and once you barely live with the survival income (RMI), you can't expect to keep a lifestyle that includes a rented home, for instance.

	17-02-2005 05:41									#455
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After consideration, I've come to the conclusion that the French and German workers really screwed this one up.

They should have gone for a 4-day, 32-hour workweek. It makes a lot more sense and is much more irreversible than a 35-hour work week.

Fridays off would have taken in all of the religious days of rest in France.

	17-02-2005 05:43									#456
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quote: Originally posted by DanS After consideration, I've come to the conclusion that the French and German workers really screwed this one up. They should have gone for a 4-day, 32-hour workweek. It makes a lot more sense and is much more irreversible than a 35-hour work week. Fridays off would have taken in all of the religious days of rest in France.

They screwed up? How about us? We never even saw the bandwagon come by our neck of the woods!

	17-02-2005 05:43									#457
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you guys should let in more immigrants, and not put them in that concentration camp you had there a few years ago in northern france (by lille or caen, you know what im talking about.)

les maghrebins (is there an english word for these guys?) would fill in your low income jobs nicely, creating more high education jobs. shortening unemployment benefits (because length is way more signifcant than the amount given. a short higher paying benefit is better for the economy then a longer lower paying one) and that would keep low income workers in the market. like eveerything, it always starts from the bottom.

switzerland, for example, is very expensive, but has very low unemployment. everyone there has very good education, but it is low unemployment benefits that drives everyone to get jobs.

	17-02-2005 05:46									#458
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quote: We never even saw the bandwagon come by our neck of the woods!

And we won't in the future because of these dufuses. A 35-hour week was tried but didn't work out.

	17-02-2005 05:48									#459
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quote: Originally posted by DanS And we won't in the future because of these dufuses. A 35-hour week was tried but didn't work out.

Yeah, Leave it to "old" Europe to screw up a "New" idea.

	17-02-2005 05:49									#460
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i have no problem with a 35 hour week, and 4 weeks of vacation. my own research indicates that they work 20% less then us, but are 20% more productive per hour worked.

that means it works out to the same.

	17-02-2005 05:52									#461
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quote: Originally posted by DanS They should have gone for a 4-day, 32-hour workweek. It makes a lot more sense and is much more irreversible than a 35-hour work week.

There were many talks about it, but it was deemed an extremistic idea. Unlike the 35 hours workweek, where you cut one hour a day or take the occasional day off, the 4 days workweek implies a very different lifestyle, where almost half of the week is devoted to free time. It's not in our habits, and thus it's not easily accepted.

I'd love it though. Weekends are way too frantic, I'd love to have more time to see the people I love.

	17-02-2005 05:56									#462
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Well, we're all suffering from your lack of foresight.

Thanks a lot!

	17-02-2005 05:56									#463
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor There were many talks about it, but it was deemed an extremistic idea. Unlike the 35 hours workweek, where you cut one hour a day or take the occasional day off, the 4 days workweek implies a very different lifestyle, where almost half of the week is devoted to free time. It's not in our habits, and thus it's not easily accepted. I'd love it though. Weekends are way too frantic, I'd love to have more time to see the people I love.

When you guys first went to the 35 hour week, I had hopes that this would eventually lead to a 32 hour/4 day week. Long has this been a goal for American Unions, while seemingly always in the far future. Sadly, this step backwards leaves that dream as nothing more than a passing thought.

	17-02-2005 05:59									#464
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quote: I'd love it though. Weekends are way too frantic, I'd love to have more time to see the people I love.

they dont do school on wednesdays. they do saturday mornings instead, in french primary schools, and junior high (not sure about high school and university)

	17-02-2005 06:00									#465
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia you guys should let in more immigrants, and not put them in that concentration camp you had there a few years ago in northern france (by lille or caen, you know what im talking about.)

Well, that concentration camp was actually for people who transited through France to Britain (Sangatte), and was maintained by the Red Cross IIRC. We have too strict (and pretty useless) laws on immigration, but most of our immigrants don't go to Sangatte, fortunately.

quote: les maghrebins (is there an english word for these guys?) would fill in your low income jobs nicely, creating more high education jobs. shortening unemployment benefits (because length is way more signifcant than the amount given. a short higher paying benefit is better for the economy then a longer lower paying one) and that would keep low income workers in the market. like eveerything, it always starts from the bottom.

To date, most low-qualification immigration comes from subsaharian Africa (especially Mali: Montreuil in Paris's suburbs is one of the biggest Malian cities, where Malian presidential candidates go campaign )
But accepting immigrants en masse is not precisely easy. Housing is already very exapnsive in Paris (where Migrants are most likely to conme), and it's scarce. Additionally, we're having grave integration problems that won't be solved anytime soon. We should clean up our own mess before opening the gates. And then, there's the EU to ponder. If we accept a massive flow of immigrants, it means they'll travel in the EU, and go to countries that don't want immigration.

So, opening the gates to immigration, while fundamentally an idea I support, has quite a few problems.

	17-02-2005 06:05									#466
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO When you guys first went to the 35 hour week, I had hopes that this would eventually lead to a 32 hour/4 day week. Long has this been a goal for American Unions, while seemingly always in the far future. Sadly, this step backwards leaves that dream as nothing more than a passing thought.

I wouldn't put too much faith in the step backwards. In 1936, France entered the era of the 40 hours workweek and paid vacation (2 weeks were the workers were paid "not to work" to the shock of our capitalists). Only two years after, as the war was looming, these laws were completely emptied.

But here we are now, with a 35 hours workweek people have grown almost immediately fond of, and 5 weeks of paid vacation. And we're not the most advanced country in Europe, by far. I think some countries actually are working 32 hours (Denmark?) and are managing well

	17-02-2005 06:06									#467
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quote: Additionally, we're having grave integration problems that won't be solved anytime soon.

lots of rascists in paris eh?

quote: We should clean up our own mess before opening the gates.

maybe opening the gates will solve the problem.

quote: And then, there's the EU to ponder. If we accept a massive flow of immigrants, it means they'll travel in the EU, and go to countries that don't want immigration.

you dont have to give them citizenship. that would solve the problem. they could have french work permits, and then when they try to go to england would need to apply for another one.

	17-02-2005 06:08									#468
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor That's an ideological statement, and it is yours. I personally revile the idea that in rich society such as ours, people can be poor despite working. And if, to avoid such a society, we need strong regulations and generous welfare that will be abused by some, then so be it.

I'm talking from the viewpoint of society, whose rights you commies seem to love to invoke

	17-02-2005 06:24									#469
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia lots of rascists in paris eh?

The worst part of it is that Paris is among the least racist parts of France. But racism isn't the only problem, as the new generation of Naghrebins have developed a counter-culture, and is now much less willing to integrate than one or two decades ago. The integration problems France is currently facing are very deep, and cannot be simply blamed on "lots of racists".

quote: maybe opening the gates will solve the problem.

I strongly doubt it. Many people feel there are too many foreigners already (more accurately, this resentment is almost exclusively centred on Arabs and Blacks), and these reactions can be seen in cosmopolitan places (Marseille) just as much as in highly homogenous places (villages in the backcountry).

The problem is a general malaise in our society, and forcing further change will only bring more anger and frustration. The Socialist stay in power (1997-2002) brought quite a modernist outlook, and whenever I read some journal article of that period, I'm amazed at how futuristic the society of that time looked. Since 2002, we have entered a reactionary age, which is simply a reaction on the too fast pace of change made by the socialists. As much as I hate it, changing things too quickly has a strong chance to failure.

quote: you dont have to give them citizenship. that would solve the problem.

But we don't! Becoming a French citizen without marriage or birthright has become increasingly difficiult in the past decades.

quote: they could have french work permits, and then when they try to go to england would need to apply for another one.

The problem is not so much England, which is probably the most foreigner-friendly country in the EU. The problem is with Germany, Italy, Spain... These countries are spending many resources to restrict immigration, and if one EU country makes a grand opening, then the migrants will be free to travel wherever they wish in the EU, with little chances of being checked at the borders. That would considerably ease their ability to live illegally in some European place. basically, a grand opening of one country would mean a very acute illiegal immigration problem in the EU.

	17-02-2005 06:27									#470
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Spiffor, why did you leave L'event?

	17-02-2005 06:27									#471
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Well, it's not exactly what's happening you know... Unemployment benefits are definitely not good enough to make up for a high paid job,

Nor should they be other wise what is the incentive to find a job? The object of unemployment is to make sure people don't starve or become homeless not to live in luxury. If they want more then survival then get a job. There are a ton of people who won't accept work because they won't make as much as before or it is in another city so I say tough. Mind you I am unemployment and I am saying this.

	17-02-2005 06:32									#472
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quote: The problem is with Germany, Italy, Spain... These countries are spending many resources to restrict immigration, and if one EU country makes a grand opening, then the migrants will be free to travel wherever they wish in the EU, with little chances of being checked at the borders.

. . . and they would suck on the welfare. thats why its important to restrict welfare so these people cant come just to live there and use it. but again, if you deny them work permits, and have low welfare, they wont come. its germanys fault if their welfare is so high that people can move there without needing to get a job.

	17-02-2005 06:32									#473
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France has enough unemployed people so why import more? If you want low wage workers then look no further then the new EU members who will all be moving west as soon as they can.

	17-02-2005 06:34									#474
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Spiffor, why did you leave L'event?

Exclusively because my uni paper has been bugging me for nearly a year now, and I decided to cut on what passes for unproductive activity. Unfortunately, I never managed to leaqve the OT, and thus, every time I wanted to spend "30 minutes" on the OT, I ended up spending the whole day, thus dragging me even more for my uni paper.

Now that my paper in due in barely more than 2 weeks, I'll soon finally take a breath, and will not have any bad feelings about spamming l'Event. But in the meantime, I really should go to sleep. Tonight, I have been trapped by the OT again

	17-02-2005 06:34									#475
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quote: France has enough unemployed people so why import more? If you want low wage workers then look no further then the new EU members who will all be moving west as soon as they can.

they are unemployed because there arnt enough low wage workers.
there arnt enough low wage workers because there is

1. too much unemployment benefits
2. not enough immigrants.

	17-02-2005 06:37									#476
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia . . . and they would suck on the welfare. thats why its important to restrict welfare so these people cant come just to live there and use it. but again, if you deny them work permits, and have low welfare, they wont come. its germanys fault if their welfare is so high that people can move there without needing to get a job.

There are very few opportunities for welfare when you're an illegal immigrant (what a migrant to an "open door" country would be if he went to another country). But still, working illegally in a kebab joint in Stuttgart brings much more money than doing some unskilled job in a Turkish village. And with this money, you can comfortably feed your family at home (even if your own life in Stuttgart is very precarious), because the prices are much lower there.

	17-02-2005 07:41									#477
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia they are unemployed because there arnt enough low wage workers. there arnt enough low wage workers because there is 1. too much unemployment benefits 2. not enough immigrants.

And do you suppose Poles, Hungarians, even one day Rumanians, and Bulgarians could fill this role? They will be let in any way, you know. Why not let excess labor from new eastern members fill any spare jobs?

	17-02-2005 09:15									#478
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Where are you people from? Many of you think that working less is living more.

Working IS living. It's what all creatures must do in order to survive. Last year I worked 55 hours a week, and enjoyed it; no it wasn't an amazing job, I was just a storeman.

So, unless you have a family, get off your butt and work harder and longer; and don't see work as a means of getting paid, see it as you get paid so you can continue working.

	17-02-2005 09:28									#479
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quote: Originally posted by Sn00py Where are you people from? Many of you think that working less is living more. Working IS living. It's what all creatures must do in order to survive. Last year I worked 55 hours a week, and enjoyed it; no it wasn't an amazing job, I was just a storeman. So, unless you have a family, get off your butt and work harder and longer; and don't see work as a means of getting paid, see it as you get paid so you can continue working.

Wow. Married or not, you need to get a life.

I've loved -- loved! -- every job I've ever had (in my adult life, anyway), and yet I can honestly say that I've enjoyed every hour away from work more than every hour at work. I cannot hang out with friends, play golf or poker, read for pleasure, practice balck-and-white photography, go to the theater, swim, help my daughter with her homework, or have sex at work. Obviously, by definition, I can't travel around the world at work (though, as a diplomat, I can get close...).

I'm capable of filling every waking hour with something more pleasureable than work; why would I want to work more?

The most telling past of your post is: "Working IS living. It's what all creatures must do in order to survive." Living and surviving are NOT the same thing. Not for most of us, anyway.

	17-02-2005 09:46									#480
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I disagree.

The best thing for me over the last few months has been my first week back working, where I did 48 hours, 8 hours a day over 6 days.

If I worked like that every week, so many of my other stresses would go down. My work is good, the pay okay, and the conditions are good as well.

For a labourer, I can think of plenty of other things that improve the conditions under which somebody works, that do not involve limitations of the work week.

Me, I want to make enough money so I don't have to worry about rent, and about making choices like whether or not to get my eyes checked or buy enough food to eat.

If I only get 25 hours a week, as I have been getting, this is what my life is like. If I work 48, things are good.

Sadly I work in a real job, and not one with a set workweek. If there is work that needs to be done, I am working, and when there is nothing I can't ask to get paid for just sitting around.