17-02-2005 01:45									#421
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia the UMP (the party of Nicolas Sarkozy, a bit of a maverick, he was the minister of edcuation, i think now hes foreign minister??) voted for the increase in maximum working hours, as did the UDF.

The UMP is Chirac's party, but the President never leads his party himself over here. Sarkozy is an ambitious shark, poised to replace Chirac. Recently he was a wildly popular police minister, and an accepted finance minister (3rd most prominent function in France). He has given up his ministries to become the leader of the UMP, in order to turn this Chirac machine into a Sarkozy machine.

Both the UMP and the UDF are right wing parties, the UDF being less so. Both seem convinced that the statements of the very active employer-syndicate are economic truth, and they do everything they can to please the syndicate.

quote: the PS and the PCF voted against.

No surprise here. The PS introduced the 35 hours workweek, and the PCF's only critics to the 35 hours workweek is that it was bundled with flexibility measures (see one of my posts above).

quote: Frankly, I dont think unemployment goes very far from 10%. i think France needs to suspend, decrease, or change the amount of money they give to unemployed people.

This is not the problem. There hasn't been any serious study linking our unemployment rate to welfare. Some people abuse welfare, of course, but it is not known how many there are. In all cases, the mantra of all French right-wingers (that the unamployed are lazy bums who feed off welfare) has never been proven. It may reduce unemployment to force people to take any job (that's what the Germans are trying, forcing people to become prostitutes), but it may not as well: as the pressure rises on currently employed people, because of unemployment scare, and if the employer is free to have them work 15% extra time (up to 220 overtime hours a year are allowed now), it's absolutely not sure that there will be room for the now-motivated unemployed on the job market.

	17-02-2005 01:50									#422
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither As for where things might be going, I would bet a **** load that nobody has ever had it as good as the average French or American worker. And they got it that good under capitalism. So consider well what you wish for.

More accurately, the reson why the French worker (or any European worker) has it so good is because of social democracy. Unfettered capitalism doesn't do good. And when one's economic policies are only oriented toward satisfying the employers (such as current policies in France) you go in the direction of unfettered capitalism. France and most other modern societies have still a long way to go to be unfetterly capitalist, but the direction is a dire one. Already, people who "had it good" in the past have seen their quality of life steadily decrease in the past years.

	17-02-2005 01:58									#423
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Cue French general strike.

If only *sigh*

We didn't have a decent strike in 10 years. And save for the railroad guys (who are protected by a rock-solid status and have active unions), everyone is too scared to make a real strike. It is more and more commonplace here to register who's taken part in strikes, to ostracize who sympathizes with unions and so on. Although those who want to undergo all the hassle can be well protected (we do ahve working-relations courts that are quite suspicious of the employer), many simply consider they have too little to gain to bother, and too much to lose. Intimidation works very well.

Sadly, it's not the monopoly of EuroDisneyland and McDonald's anymore. French capitalists have caught up with American capitalists to scare their workers into submission, and the government agrees with it in the name of competitivity (save for the occasional propaganda outbust against some visible "rogue employer")

	17-02-2005 03:45									#424
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Welcome to present day Europe, every bit as corporate and greedy as it's US counterpart. It's a shame that the working class across Europe is so demoralised at this moment in time and without teeth. I see it in France now, and it's visible in the UK and in Germany. Now is a good time for the capitalist class to roll back welfare at an unprecedented rate. Alas with the present nature of society, the unnecessary worry that goes with it people are too distracted from the bigger picture.

Power is needed once more...

	17-02-2005 04:10									#425
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious And I'm under the impression that not all African nations have so much corruption. How about Mozambique and Uganda? They aren't exactly developing like China, and they don't have very corrupt govts, do they?

If you knew anything about Mozambique then you'd know about the 35 year civil war which destroyed most of the country and has left it with the largest land mine problem on Earth. I'm not sure how corrupt the government is but I imagine it is as corrupt as the next in Africa.

Uganda, up until the 1950's, was known as the Hong Kong of Africa for its tremendous economic success and racial diversity. Then the place was taken over by a nationalist, xenophobic, power mad cannibal (yes, he routinely ate his political enemies) Adi Amin. The Chinese and Indian entrepreneurs who were the life blood of the economy were forced out of the country even tough they were citizen and their property stolen. Amin went on a blood crazed orgy of death and destruction rarely equaled even in the history of African Dictatorships. The national economy was destroyed, the nation crashed into civil war, and every educated person fled the country never to return.

Not that the post Amin governments have been much better since they've got Uganda into not less then four wars in 30 years. Are Mozambique and Uganda really the best two examples you could come up with?

	17-02-2005 04:16									#426
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo [q] Algeria stable? Are you insane?

Compared to most of Africa? It's a god damn model of stability. Compared to the first world Algeria is a borderline basket case.

	17-02-2005 04:19									#427
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Not that the post Amin governments have been much better since they've got Uganda into not less then four wars in 30 years. Are Mozambique and Uganda really the best two examples you could come up with?

Well, there are very few success-stories in Africa, and the success-stories tend to be short lived anyway. Ivory Coast was the success-stroy of subsaharian Africa (and the reason wasn't only the French patronage), but power struggles have completely strangled it now. Botswana appears to be a riot, because they have nationalized diamond mines. I truly hope they won't suffer the main fate as the people from eastern Congo, whose mineral wealth is the reason of their troubles.

Surprisingly ( ), among the most peaceful countries of Africa, you find te Mali and Burkina Faso, which are abysmally low on natural resources. And thus they tend not to suffer too much from war.

	17-02-2005 04:34									#428
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PH: With countries like Germany back in recession yet again it seems like market liberalisations haven't gone nearly enough. The needed reforms have been listed in numerous threads so I won't retype them here but so far there has only been tinkering at the edges and not the fundimental reform which should have occured ten years ago in Germany.

	17-02-2005 04:34									#429
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I note that the vast majority of the drop in working hours in the US took place under more-or-less unfettered capitalism. The number of hours worked in the US hasn't decreased in decades under our current more-or-less socialist system.

	17-02-2005 04:36									#430
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DanS: But you are forgetting about the unions that made the drop to the 40 hour week possible. Those unions don't really exist any more since they are only a tiny shadow of their former selves.

	17-02-2005 04:38									#431
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Err, your system has grown more and more unfettered since the Reagan years, after the shock therapy of the Chicago boys. Clinton changed little...

Are most of the dramatic drop in working hours from the pre-New-Deal America?

	17-02-2005 04:38									#432
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Well, there are very few success-stories in Africa, and the success-stories tend to be short lived anyway. .

Agreed but I would have pointed towards Ghana as a success story if I was in Kid's place. Of course that would have reinforced what his opponents have been saying in this thread.

	17-02-2005 04:39									#433
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Are most of the dramatic drop in working hours from the pre-New-Deal America?

Yes.

	17-02-2005 04:39									#434
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Since I have no good will for France, I can only urge endless strikes and a reduction of the work week to 1 day or less. Let the French economy tank. Wealth is not important to the French socialist. Wine, adultery and vacations are.

Eat, drink and be merry, Frenchmen!

	17-02-2005 04:41									#435
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia africa is poor first and foremost because of corruption, and civil wars.

Africa is poor, first and foremost, because they have been (and still are being) robbed, beaten, and raped by the West for five hundred years. Fifty years of political freedom isn't going to overcome that.

	17-02-2005 04:41									#436
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Yes.

Ah well. The evolution over here was completely different. I guess it doesn't help, when unfettered capitalism relies on a State that kills worker activists.

	17-02-2005 04:42									#437
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quote: This is not the problem. There hasn't been any serious study linking our unemployment rate to welfare. Some people abuse welfare, of course, but it is not known how many there are. In all cases, the mantra of all French right-wingers (that the unamployed are lazy bums who feed off welfare) has never been proven. It may reduce unemployment to force people to take any job (that's what the Germans are trying, forcing people to become prostitutes), but it may not as well: as the pressure rises on currently employed people, because of unemployment scare, and if the employer is free to have them work 15% extra time (up to 220 overtime hours a year are allowed now), it's absolutely not sure that there will be room for the now-motivated unemployed on the job market.

cmon. high unemployment benefits has to be the reason. there is no other reason why nearly every western european country has unemployment reaching or about 10%, while america, who has limited unemployment benefits, has unemployment at half the euro rates.
the phillips curve model even shows how increased welfare means increased unemployment at equal rates of inflation.

	17-02-2005 04:42									#438
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Wine, adultery and vacations

Save for the adultery part, that's exactly what I need right now

	17-02-2005 04:44									#439
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Oerdin: The bright capitalists figured out that it made a lot of sense to run their factories on three 8-hour shifts rather than two 12-hour shifts. It's true that the unions had a lot of impact on this realization, but once you do just slightly less than 12-hour shifts, the 8-hour shift becomes much more attractive than a 10-hour shift, for instance. By 1938, the 40-hour work week was in place, well before the crazy socialist system we have now was instituted.

Last edited by DanS on 17-02-2005 at 04:53

	17-02-2005 04:52									#440
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia cmon. high unemployment benefits has to be the reason. there is no other reason why nearly every western european country has unemployment reaching or about 10%, while america, who has limited unemployment benefits, has unemployment at half the euro rates.

Because the rates are counted differently. We have the same rate of unemployment as Europe, when you add in people who've lost their benefits, never had jobs, are in prison, or can't find enough work to meet their needs. For example, I'm not counted as unemployed in the U.S., though I don't have a job. My benefits ended two months ago, so I'm no longer unemployed.

	17-02-2005 04:53									#441
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Oerdin: The bright capitalists figured out that it made a lot of sense to run their factories on three 8-hour shifts rather than two 12-hour shifts. It's true that the unions had a lot of impact on this realization, but once you do just slightly less than 12-hour shifts, the 8-hour shift becomes much more attractive than a 10-hour shift, for instance. By 1938, the 40-hour work week was in place, well before the crazy socialist system we have now was instituted.

You mean six 12-hour shifts were replaced with five 8-hour shifts.

And what crazy socialist system do we have?

	17-02-2005 04:54									#442
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia cmon. high unemployment benefits has to be the reason. there is no other reason why nearly every western european country has unemployment reaching or about 10%, while america, who has limited unemployment benefits, has unemployment at half the euro rates.

There are plenty of reasons. Unlike most West European countries, you guys have a low-wage sector. You allow yourself to have workers paid like dirt (the phenomenon of the working poor, which sounds absolutely shocking to European ears), and as such, plenty of jobs can be held, which wouldn't exist if there were decent wages. The fact that you allow this kind of indignant jobs for one, and the fact that you force people taking them increases employment (because they are confronted with the choice of taking these jobs or not feeding their families). That's absolutely not quality employment though.

The US has also much more productivity (with fire at will laws, for example), and the employment rate benefits from it, because employers can hire and fire very reactively... Hiring somebody for an undetermined time, in France, is much more of a commitment. This may result in a better rate, but it also results in a lower quality of life, where your livelihood is very dependant on little bosses.

quote: the phillips curve model even shows how increased welfare means increased unemployment at equal rates of inflation.

Maybe that's my sociology background speaking, but I don't care about this kind of models. Basically, it confronts one developed country (the US) that stands out on plenty of aspects in comparison with other developed countries, and it blames one of these aspects for all the findings.

Until I find a study that actually inquires on how people behave (rather than using abstract rationalist theoretical models or confronting macrolevel data), I will have no reason to believe that the impact of unemployment benefits on job-motivation is significant. Considering that argument is the one I repeatedly hear from all free-marketeer politicians (who are in power now in Europe), who don't back it by any actual study of human behaviour, I conclude it is tripe.

	17-02-2005 04:55									#443
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The progression as I know it was six 12-hour shifts to six 10-hour shifts to six 8-hour shifts to five 8-hour shifts. All before 1940.

quote: And what crazy socialist system do we have?

The one in the US nowadays. The proportion of government spending in relation to the economy has almost tripled since the institution of the 40 hour work week. We're all spending more time working for the government.

I find it fascinating that we have the same basic labor setup nowadays versus 70 years ago. In context, the French fight for a 35 hour work week is small potatoes.

	17-02-2005 05:04									#444
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quote: There are plenty of reasons. Unlike most West European countries, you guys have a low-wage sector. You allow yourself to have workers paid like dirt (the phenomenon of the working poor, which sounds absolutely shocking to European ears), and as such, plenty of jobs can be held, which wouldn't exist if there were decent wages. The fact that you allow this kind of indignant jobs for one, and the fact that you force people taking them increases employment (because they are confronted with the choice of taking these jobs or not feeding their families). That's absolutely not quality employment though.

Yes, we have working poor instead of unemployed people living off of government money. I'd say that's a more than fair trade.

	17-02-2005 05:04									#445
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quote: There are plenty of reasons. Unlike most West European countries, you guys have a low-wage sector. You allow yourself to have workers paid like dirt (the phenomenon of the working poor, which sounds absolutely shocking to European ears), and as such, plenty of jobs can be held, which wouldn't exist if there were decent wages. The fact that you allow this kind of indignant jobs for one, and the fact that you force people taking them increases employment (because they are confronted with the choice of taking these jobs or not feeding their families). That's absolutely not quality employment though.

the only effect low wage workers have on the economy is a decrease in costs and prices. having on high wage workers would push prices up, but wouldnt necessairly result in unemployment. only when they can make more by not working then if they had worked, do high educated people choose not to be busdrivers. these high educated workers just need to take pay cuts. but they dont want to because they get paid by the state not to work.
(and do you have low wage workers, youve got the north africans, who all live in Rueil Malmaison, the 10th Arrondissement, or Seine St. Denis)

quote: Maybe that's my sociology background speaking, but I don't care about this kind of models. Basically, it confronts one developed country (the US) that stands out on plenty of aspects in comparison with other developed countries, and it blames one of these aspects for all the findings.

actually, the phillips curve is the best fit line of the (x,y) coordinates (x=unemployment, y=inflation) of a large sample of countries, including most of europe, parts of asia and oceania, and parts of the americas.

	17-02-2005 05:07									#446
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You still fail to address the fallacy of my not being unemployed, despite my not having a job. This is why U.S. rates are lower, not because our economy is more efficient at creating jobs.

	17-02-2005 05:14									#447
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quote: You still fail to address the fallacy of my not being unemployed, despite my not having a job. This is why U.S. rates are lower, not because our economy is more efficient at creating jobs.

unemployment rates are measured the same way in all OECD countries. you wouldnt get counted in france either, even if you collected unemployment benefits. since you havnt looked for a job in 4 weeks, you are out of the workforce. in fact, its more likely that in france, the number of people experienciing discouraged workers syndrome is higher (they get more money, are less likley to immediatly look for a job, so they drop out of the workfroce, even tho eventually they want to get one)

	17-02-2005 05:20									#448
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia since you havnt looked for a job in 4 weeks, you are out of the workforce.

And where do you get the idea I haven't looked for work in four weeks? The U.S. government counts unemployment as those who are collecting benefits. That's it. If you don't collect benefits, you aren't unemployed. I am not a discouraged worker. I am actively seeking work, I'm just not unemployed.

	17-02-2005 05:26									#449
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quote: And where do you get the idea I haven't looked for work in four weeks? The U.S. government counts unemployment as those who are collecting benefits.

no they dont, they use the same formula that every other country uses. the rate of unemployment is the number of people who dont have a job and who have activly looked for one in the past 4 weeks divided by the number of people in the workforce times 100.

thats why you can have a net growth of jobs and have unemployment increase: people who werent counted before are now looking actively for jobs.

	17-02-2005 05:27									#450
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Except our government has no way of knowing who is looking for work, unless they are collecting benefits.