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snoopy369
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Of the Peanuts Gallery
Apr 2004
time: 23:26
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Gist:
1) Paddy is fine with the babs deal. I've already cleared it with Beta, and it's now a even deal - constr+currency for mono/feudal/engin, CoL is gone - so we'll do it as such.
2) Currency is already out there - not with BoH, but with DR/AM/LB. So construction is to be traded, quickly if possible. 
3) BoH is probably going to attack within 6 turns or so at the outside, Antioch. Maybe going with our original idea (through the mountains, from the east).
I'll check with AM and LB for possible trade of construction.
Paddy do you want to do the dealing with Babs
Paddy I am
Paddy how will it work
snoopy369 we would like it ... would draw them closer, and would get us closer to tech advantage
snoopy369 well what i suggested to them:
snoopy369 we get them into next era (constr+currency)
snoopy369 they give us the free tech
Paddy
snoopy369 if it is feud or mono, their obligations are done
snoopy369 if it is engineering, they work directly on monotheism and trade it straight up (at our option) for feudalism
Paddy ok
snoopy369 beta said he could probably agree to that
Paddy well said
snoopy369 i can just go ahead and tell him okay, if you okay it
snoopy369 not sure if we're giving up a lot, but it will help us get ahead
snoopy369 i will probably ask he not trade constr/currency for a little bit
snoopy369 other question of mine relates to said techs 
Paddy will they honour it
snoopy369 oh yes if they sign it
snoopy369 they may not agree to not trade it ... but they'll not trade it if they say so, imo
Paddy I am happy they trade it after say 10 turns
snoopy369 hmm maybe
snoopy369 tho that's not much of a time ... i was thinking 20
snoopy369 i'd sort of like to see people a bit behind us getting into 2nd age
snoopy369 give us some comfort room after DR is gone
snoopy369 not worry about AM+LB teaming up aganist us
Paddy not many teams here
Paddy hehehe - well said
snoopy369 yessir
snoopy369 anyway it wouldn't be a big concession
snoopy369 now, the second part
snoopy369 what do you folks feel about following a similar policy amongst us
snoopy369 waiting at least 10-15 turns to trade constr/currency
Paddy so you offer const and currency and they give future tech and ?
snoopy369 so we keep AM and LB in the first era longer?
snoopy369 well, constr+currency is about = to monotheism
snoopy369 so basically straight up
snoopy369 if you want monarchy as part of the deal i can probably arrange it
Paddy hmmm
snoopy369 we don't particularly value said tech, but if you do we can arrange it i suspect
Paddy we have monarchy
snoopy369 Ah
Paddy will be sending your way aty some stage
Paddy Babs just handed it over, after a 15 turn muk around
snoopy369 hehe
snoopy369 what was the deal for?
Paddy thius my asking about them honouring
Paddy Lit and the mapmaking credit from way back
snoopy369 ohh
snoopy369 right
snoopy369 well they only had it for like 2 turns now
Paddy been a very very long messy process
Paddy they have had it longer, but they just stopped talking, basically very messy
snoopy369 oh
snoopy369 well Beta has been very busy lately, perhaps that is part of why
Paddy ok
snoopy369 anywho i think they would hold to it
snoopy369 and we'd know if they didn't
snoopy369 now about constr/currency between us
Paddy so will you do the deal?
Paddy yes
snoopy369 if you are fine with it then yes.
snoopy369 as I said above - do you think it's a good idea for us to hold off trading with AM/LB constr and currency for 10-15 turns
snoopy369 so we keep them in the first era
snoopy369 then trade it when they're probably close on their own
snoopy369 they also lack CoL from what i recall
snoopy369 this is assuming DR doesn't develop it of course
snoopy369 but i doubt they will ...
snoopy369 brb
snoopy369 ok lamb is done  will be back in twenty
Paddy cheers mate
snoopy369 back
Paddy hello3
snoopy369 so what thinketh the horde?
Paddy happy for you to do the deal with Babs
snoopy369 and?
snoopy369 about my other question
Paddy I think that LB have currency
snoopy369 hm
Paddy and also belive that LB are hard on construction
snoopy369 interesting
snoopy369 so little to no value holding off
snoopy369 but how does LB nearly outresearch us?
Paddy they were discussing offering that to me for currency a few turns back
snoopy369 yet they have currency?
Paddy LB - DR - AM are a possible tech alliance
snoopy369 possible
Paddy DR got currency before all of us I believe
snoopy369 yet CoL was lacking from AM and LB last i checked
snoopy369 Ohh
snoopy369 before they realized how hard they needed to mil-build
Paddy Aqua has many many stories this week trying to gain peace
snoopy369 lol
Paddy DR offeres republic in now 3 to stay away
snoopy369 in 3 turns?
snoopy369 h
snoopy369 hm
Paddy republic would have been nice, yet balanced againt crushing DR - well no choice for Horde
snoopy369 hehe
snoopy369 well, can't you get republic elsewhere?
snoopy369 (or just go to monarchy... )
Paddy could be
snoopy369 anywho you think aggressively trading constr/currency is the better tack?
Paddy yeah
snoopy369 kk i'll bring it up in the Euphoriscian Tavern
snoopy369
Paddy cool
Paddy I expect LB to pass it on asap
snoopy369 the save?
Paddy techs
snoopy369 oh ok
snoopy369 i expect DR to sit on the save a few days
Paddy this game passes techs very very fast
Paddy so do I
snoopy369 deciding how to deal with your destruction of Sidon
snoopy369 nice to hear it was virtually painless btw
snoopy369 i thought as much, but confirmation made it easier to believe
snoopy369 no doubt Antioch is defended, however
Paddy yeah
Paddy aqua is not happy with me
snoopy369 lol
snoopy369 you mean not happy in the sore loser way, or just pissed at BoH?
Paddy both
Paddy was very pissed personnally
Paddy many phone calls
Paddy last night I gave a bit back, I think he will be quiet with me a few days now
snoopy369 hehe
snoopy369 that's right you're in phone range of him
snoopy369 well, he knows his team is pretty toast
snoopy369 shocked they didn't go more military, tbh
snoopy369 1) superteam 2) persians 3) small world
Paddy yes
snoopy369 all 3 reasons they'd be a big target early on
snoopy369 but ... such is life
Paddy I think it pissed him how organized we were - Bards, Horde
Paddy indeed
snoopy369 yeh
snoopy369 well, what does he expect? DG goes this way
snoopy369 very organized alliances
snoopy369 due to the great number of people available for diplomacy
snoopy369 that's the big difference between DG and PBEM really
Paddy his first real team dg
snoopy369 1) more people diplomatting 2) more weight given to DGs than to PBEMs so more work done on them
snoopy369 yeh ... i haven't actively played one before, but I have been semi-active in Vox
snoopy369 in PTWDG1
Paddy Rebecca, my wife, knows Aqu, he has been here, stayed over etc for all nighter games etc she could clearly hear him on the phone she believes he not happy because we beat him at doing the same thing he would take me out without a hesitation etc
snoopy369 hehe
snoopy369 very very true
Paddy so on trade restrictions, we will leave them alone then
Paddy I hope we can swing LB into not sending troops to help DR in their final days etc
Paddy I know we have no real need of extra troops at the moment mainly would just like to know they are not sending DR help is all
snoopy369 yeh
snoopy369 LB won't get involved i don't think
snoopy369 it would be suicide ...
snoopy369 we've beaten DR, and unless LB has 8 move troops ... no chance for them to help enough
snoopy369 they could 'save' DR, i suppose
snoopy369 but not in a meaningful way ...
snoopy369 antioch might be hard to beat for you - but you'll win, just a question of how to do it without losing too much
snoopy369 and babs should easily defeat aquarius
Paddy LB yeas could play a spoiling move - 
Paddy Babs need a good 5 - 7 turns to get in position and attack as a group I say that as to where I have seen their horse last turn
Paddy Antioch
Paddy antioch...
Paddy hmmm
Paddy many a frustrating hour spent discussing antioch last night
snoopy369 hehe
snoopy369 what's the issue?
snoopy369 how to attack it, when, or whether?
snoopy369 (or do you mean Aqua )
Paddy exactly
Paddy attack
Paddy we role played in a conference chat
snoopy369 lol
Paddy we took turns playing them and what we would do etc
Paddy all part of the game to us
snoopy369 you funny horde you :P
Paddy ( the role play we have going is a lot of fun )
snoopy369 i imagine
snoopy369 did you reach a consensus?
Paddy almost
Paddy enough to move on if the save arrived
Paddy we have many a warrior within Horde
Paddy and many differing play styles
snoopy369 hehe
snoopy369 may i ask your rough timeline then?
snoopy369 so we know how to plan
snoopy369 our builds and such
Paddy all depends on where they go etc
snoopy369 well as I said, 2 immortals are heading to antioch (we presume)
snoopy369 but only 2 ... we'll know more next turn i guess
Paddy we know they moved some immortals form there stack, and they have to have rushed others
Paddy and they had others and several horse etc
snoopy369 yeh
snoopy369 is there a rough timeline though?
snoopy369 as in "3 turns at the fastest, 10 turns at the slowest" :P
Paddy well before 10
Paddy I hope
snoopy369 hehe
Paddy this turn we may move our stack 2
snoopy369 k
Paddy just off their road etc
snoopy369 moving within 2 squares of antioch?
Paddy making them have to come out to get us
snoopy369 nice
snoopy369 so you can pick off the horses
Paddy each move now is a process
Paddy yes and their fnnnn immortals
snoopy369 lol yessir
Paddy I believe we have more defenders then they have attackers
snoopy369 at the moment, probably
Paddy so our stack could get carved up, but they will be thus really hurt then when we get our turn
Paddy yes
snoopy369 and if they move many more immortals from their stack, we'll move in
snoopy369 but they must know that
snoopy369 rhoth thinks they'll have to dismantle more of that stack
snoopy369 i disagree
snoopy369 i think they'll keep 7 there to keep us at bay
Paddy so if they do not attack we would possibly go for the mountains, then attack antioch from the ridge, also putting their inner sanctum in the firing line
snoopy369 good idea
snoopy369 :t
Paddy yes I think they will keep you there
snoopy369 that was one of our contingencies in the first attack
snoopy369 and also allows your horses to pillage the iron road, i think
Paddy we have them split the next step is to split them 1 more time
snoopy369 :t
Paddy I understand from intel my scout Banshees that antioch has several roads connecting it to capital I am sad to have lost a great scout unit the hope was a sneak attack in to pillage said roads DR had an immortal, and at least 2 horse waiting just behind antioch , with a spear inside
snoopy369 oops
snoopy369 but good to know
snoopy369 too bad they connected antioch better
snoopy369 before it was only a single road ... sooo tempting
snoopy369 but maybe that's why they did it - we exposed their weakness=
Paddy no worries
Paddy they wil freak if babs arrive and attack soon
snoopy369 :t hope so
Paddy you and me both my fried
Paddy thank you for having this chat with me
snoopy369 yessir and you
snoopy369 have a good saturday or friday or whichever day this is
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Rhothaerill
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Vincent Returns!!!
Feb 2003
time: 21:26
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1400bc chat with Paddy. Uhh, just ignore the fact that I accidentally typed our password into the chat window. I trust Paddy not to do anything with it.
The gist of the chat: In 4+ turns, BOH and the Babs will be in position to threaten up to 3 of DR's cities while we can be in position to threaten 2 more.
quote:
Paddy says:
hello Rhoth
Paddy says:
any news?
Rhothaerill says:
Hey Paddy.
Rhothaerill says:
News on what? I just got home
Paddy says:
Your Princess, and Andy
Rhothaerill says:
Oh. Heh, no not yet
Rhothaerill says:
Thanks for asking.
Paddy says:
Rhothaerill says:
If she doesn't have the baby this coming week then the doctors will induce her on the 24th
Paddy says:
Doctors are like that these days
Rhothaerill says:
Well it's necessary. She has childbirth diabetes (or whatever they call it) and the doctors don't let anyone with that go past 39 weeks so that the baby doesn't get too big.
Paddy says:
Glad the doctors are there then
Rhothaerill says:
Yep
Rhothaerill says:
I just saw your email. I'm not sure yet if I'd be able to make it to a chat. I'll see later on. I can't speak for snoop or McM, but I think McM at least is generally asleep about that time since I think that is 1 or 2am for him
Paddy says:
yeah, I had to ask though
Rhothaerill says:
What did your team want to discuss with us?
Rhothaerill says:
If not later I can at least talk for a while now
Paddy says:
the war
Paddy says:
and movment ideas
Rhothaerill says:
Okay.
Rhothaerill says:
Let me open up the save. I haven't seen it yet.
Rhothaerill says:
Rhothaerill says:
err, scratch that
Paddy says:
hehehe
Paddy says:
Sure Michael
Rhothaerill says:
Forget you ever saw that.
Paddy says:
saw what sensai
Rhothaerill says:
Exactly.
Rhothaerill says:
It looks like DR's forces on the mountain are now down to 6 immortals and 4 spearmen
Paddy says:
good
Paddy says:
is that enough for you to attack
Rhothaerill says:
We'll be discussing that very idea.
Paddy says:
good
Paddy says:
Aqua is being a smart arse in splitting his stack
Paddy says:
playing us
Rhothaerill says:
They still have enough to do some serious damage to us when we get off that mountain as it will take two turns beyond this before we can attack Invictus
Paddy says:
2? ok
Rhothaerill says:
1 to move on the gold hill, 1 to move on the hill next to Invictus and the 3rd to attack the city. They could conceivably hit us on both the hill turns
Paddy says:
really
Paddy says:
I thought you were at Invictus 8,8
Rhothaerill says:
Yes, but they are on the mountain 8 of Invictus
Paddy says:
yes
Rhothaerill says:
We'd have to move 1 then 2 on the number pad to go around them.
Paddy says:
or if you take that stack you are thus being invictus 8
either way it will screw with aqua
Rhothaerill says:
Attacking that mountain is tantamount to suicide. Attack 3 vs. defense 5
Paddy says:
I see Ljube went off diplo channels and sent snoop an email today
Rhothaerill says:
I don't think snoop has been on for a while so I haven't seen it yet.
Paddy says:
ok
Paddy says:
would you like a copy?
Rhothaerill says:
Sure
Rhothaerill says:
Got it. Yes, heading to the east is another possibility as we would be able to threaten two cities eventually. That has been discussed in our forum too. It would take us a bit longer to get into position though
Paddy says:
I chattered with Snoop yesturday
Rhothaerill says:
Yep I saw that
Paddy says:
ahh good
Paddy says:
did you like the idea of Horde going 2
Rhothaerill says:
Yep.
Paddy says:
so if you went south as well, moved this turn, Aqua would be in a conundrum
Paddy says:
as we are now heading to threaten 4 of his citie
Paddy says:
s
Paddy says:
and then the Babs could possibly take their horse city
Rhothaerill says:
How soon would you be in position to threaten?
Paddy says:
opening save now to see
Rhothaerill says:
It would take 4 turns to get to 8 of Marcopolis (assuming they don't block us)
Paddy says:
yes
Paddy says:
The Babs need a few turns to get into position
that being they will
Paddy says:
it would be 3 turns to the ridgeline
Paddy says:
From there we can work along the ridgeline to Antioch, 2 more turns to be Antioch 6
Paddy says:
or 3 more turns to be on Inner sanctum
Rhothaerill says:
Okay so it's roughly the same. If we all start moving now then we'd be threatening several cities.
Paddy says:
yes
Paddy says:
and taking their eyes off the babs
Rhothaerill says:
I need to talk to McM and snoop first, but I think that's a plan then.
Paddy says:
I have been playing a pyschological game with aqua
he has rung me everyday at least once since our stack appeared
I keep telling him to beware of the vampires
Rhothaerill says:
Heh.
Paddy says:
I spun him a massive tale 3 weeks back
on the devious and underhanded ways of each team member, and how they are decieving all of us
I twisted in a whole parcel of truths on various game play of each of them, examples of actions in pbems and demo games etc
Paddy says:
how they as vampires will strike when the time is right etc
Rhothaerill says:
And what's even funnier is that the only one playing for them is 1889
Rhothaerill says:
Since the rest of that team is inactive
Paddy says:
that was a major key of my yarn
how they are acting all "inactive" so we all leave 1889 alone
almost pittying him for being locked out of his forums and being all alone etc
Paddy says:
anyway it went into lots of fun details etc
and each time he rings, I find a chance to reiterate a point or two of that chat etc
my hope is to make him commit something into his southern cities etc
Rhothaerill says:
That's good. I wonder if he will though. Until the Babs show up we have no way of telling
Paddy says:
yes indeed
Paddy says:
well I figure it is all worth a try
Rhothaerill says:
Yeah, might as well
Paddy says:
The role play is a lot of fun
Paddy says:
He also is playing with my head when he can
Paddy says:
He had a great theory on how DR - Bards - AM and LB would trample the Horde when we built the SoZ
Rhothaerill says:
Heh
Paddy says:
He felt all nations would gather to take the Horde down for daring to build SoZ
Rhothaerill says:
Not your allies at least. We prefer to remain on your good side.
Rhothaerill says:
And in any case we'd much prefer to remove DR
Paddy says:
We make great allies
Paddy says:
a sure fire combination for the future
Rhothaerill says:
Works for me.
Paddy says:
will you be sending reinforcements?
Paddy says:
you may have noticed a stream of horse passing through to the front
Paddy says:
a trickle really
Rhothaerill says:
At the moment no. We sent most of our forces at the beginning and the remaining forces are there to prevent any chances of a counterattack by DR. If things go bad then we might send some, but that remains to be seen.
Paddy says:
ok, so you believe that you have adequate numbers for their decimation?
Paddy says:
that is good to know
Rhothaerill says:
Well, with both you and the Babs in the mix, yes. If we were all alone then no
Rhothaerill says:
But if we had been all alone we probably wouldn't have launched the attack to begin with
Paddy says:
understandable
Paddy says:
I am thinking:
Your forces move south
Babs arrive to west for attack on DR Horse city
We move south to ridge
once we hit that ridge, to run off a group of horse (5 - 9), send them crashing through the gullet of his lands
a pillaging, smash and grab force
this leaves our Army as mainly infantry
thus further spltting DR forces
Rhothaerill says:
That's a possibility, although you might lose a bunch of horses that way. I think our main concern is removing that iron from them. Remove that and they can no longer build immortals
Paddy says:
yes
Paddy says:
was just a thought, i have been looking at many angles
Paddy says:
I know Antioch is well connected with roads
Paddy says:
but they can be cut
Rhothaerill says:
Not a bad one, they just have the ability to decimate your horse force if you leave them too our in the open
Rhothaerill says:
too out in the open
Paddy says:
we believe antioch will be a vicious battle
Paddy says:
indeed
Rhothaerill says:
I have a hunch that if we move next turn they may finally attack us, though the chances of them winning are 50/50
Rhothaerill says:
I'm going to go ahead and start playing our turn. It's midnight for McM so I don't expect him to log on to discuss
Paddy says:
if you move 3 to next mountain you should be safe
Aqua is an accountant, he knows he only has at best a 27% chance in winning on moutains
Paddy says:
I think McM is out with the young Ladies
Rhothaerill says:
That's my plan.
Paddy says:
Aqua has many different calculators for Civ, including a rng
Rhothaerill says:
landing on that mountain gives us 4 defense while he still has 4 attack. That's their best shot at us.
Paddy says:
very devious and crafty player
Rhothaerill says:
For a little while
Rhothaerill says:
Heh, I always play by feel. I'm more of a go-with-your-gut type of player
Paddy says:
I know what you mean
Rhothaerill says:
Hasn't hurt me yet.
Paddy says:
hehehe
Paddy says:
some people freak at my pbem turn rate
personally I am in them to enjoy, and over analysing things can be a killer
Paddy says:
then in a demo game ( I call this game a team diplo game) many hands and heads make for light work etc
so lots of things get analysised
Rhothaerill says:
Yes, though we have quite a bit fewer players than you. McM, snoop and I are the only ones active on a daily basis. And I'll be less active very soon.
Rhothaerill says:
Hmm, just moved. Invictus has no units in it.
Paddy says:
it may sound funny, but I consider us all one team. We are different nations yes, yet like the way that the United States and Australia share so many great and wonderful ways, histories, traditions and alliances, our Nations, Euphorica (China) and the Blood Oath Horde (Mongols) share so many things.
Paddy says:
what??????????????????
Rhothaerill says:
If they leave it like that we could burn it next turn
Paddy says:
wow
Rhothaerill says:
With one of our horses
Paddy says:
hehehe
Rhothaerill says:
Now we just gave Aqua something else to think about.
Paddy says:
that will cut the road o their stack
Paddy says:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA truely awesome
Paddy says:
well done
Paddy says:
he will so so freak
Rhothaerill says:
I only wish we had more horses. L(
Paddy says:
I can already hear the phone call.... blahblahblah....
Rhothaerill says:
err
Paddy says:
may the spirits of your people guide you in this turn
Rhothaerill says:
And yours as well
Paddy says:
thank you
Rhothaerill says:
The save is headed your way
Rhothaerill says:
Paddy says:
wow
Paddy says:
thank you |
Last edited by snoopy369 on 13-07-2005 at 05:05
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McMeadows
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right here, right now
Mar 1999
time: 06:26
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McMeadows says:
EU is now 8 from Invictus with stack
Ljube says:
this is perfect
Aqua moved 2 workers back. They didn't have time to start road building because of our stack which is on mountain 7-7-8-8 from Inner Sanctum
The problem with our stack is that it is pretty useless really. Aqua managed to build walls in Antioch so we can't attack the city. We can only disrupt the movement of his troops and taunt.
McMeadows says:
you have to disconnect Antioch, as you mentioned, their stack is on our side
Ljube says:
Disconnecting Antioch is not easy and maybe even not possible at the moment.
McMeadows says:
can't understand that
Ljube says:
We're moving in that direction, but don't know how many immortals aqua has in antioch and near cities. We don't want to lose our entire Army Group East trying to disconnect Antioch. There are 2 roads connecting Antioch to the rest.
McMeadows says:
just 2 indeed. you do understand the consequence of being able to disconnect
Ljube says:
you mean it would benefit us? I'm not sure we would be capable of keeping Antioch disconnected. Even if we succeed in disconnecting it.
McMeadows says:
why wouldn't you?
Ljube says:
How many units (immortals) does he have in the near cities? Every immortal would kill every our spear/sword in teh open.
McMeadows says:
an increasing amount if you let them do so
Ljube says:
Better that than losing our army. If he keeps building units, he will fall behind in everything else. And his units are slow movers. Our keshiks treat mountains as grass. your riders move 3
McMeadows says:
which ones? we don't have them
Ljube says:
I mean, it is much better to strike their slow movers with keshik/rider force than to strike with sword/horse army which will probably lose both on defence and offence.
McMeadows says:
how many immortals could there be by that time??????
Ljube says:
I don't know. How many are there in Invictus?
McMeadows says:
at least 1
Ljube says:
How many swords do you have in total? We have 12.
McMeadows says:
15
Ljube says:
Then aqua can reasonably have 12 immortals
McMeadows says:
8 on known locations
Ljube says:
where? you see them?
McMeadows says:
7 in stack, 1 in Invictus
Ljube says:
where is their stack of 7?
McMeadows says:
it was on a mountain top without a road LAST turn. can't make it to Antioch in quite a few
Ljube says:
ah, without a road, indeed. it must be in invictus now
McMeadows says:
IMPOSSIBLE
Ljube says:
well, they won't reach antioch
McMeadows says:
NO ROAD
NON roaded mountain 69 from Invictus
and not on Invictus 6 now
Ljube says:
they were there? 7 immortals were there? are they crazy?
McMeadows says:
YES
Ljube says:
Then, we press on.
McMeadows says:
we were moving towards Macroplois
Ljube says:
Walls or no walls, Antioch will burn.
McMeadows says:
I'll make a screeny for ya
Ljube says:
This is very important info. Then, I suggest you attack Invictus next turn and take it! It can't be heavily defended. Will you keep Invictus, or raze it? I would keep it.
Transfer of "map - 1350 bc.jpg" is complete.
McMeadows says:
Latest opinion is to keep Invictus
Ljube says:
That would be best.. Now, we must discuss what should be attacked by the horde. Inner Sanctum or Antioch?
McMeadows says:
Antioch is where the immortals have their resource from
Ljube says:
OK, we need 2 turns to get in striking position, attack on teh third turn.
McMeadows says:
in which case you have to take into account the maths on the DR-stack movement
Ljube says:
Yes, they are probably 8 from marcopolis now
McMeadows says:
we couldn't see the stack, even when we moved in on Invictus
Ljube says:
maybe they have disbanded it
If we move 2, next turn we could move 2 again, cut one of the iron roads in teh process and on teh third turn choose which city to attack: Inner Sanctum or Antioch. We would be moving over grass all the time, so pretty vulnerable.
OK, we move 2, DR move 2, Antioch falls. That's 1300 BC. We move 2 again, DR stack moves 4-4, you move the rest of your units to Antioch and wait there. Their stack can't get in time to defend either of their cities.
Do they have construction?
McMeadows says:
no
think it over with your horde
Ljube says:
then they can't get engineering
McMeadows says:
I hope we can make some progress next few turns
Ljube says:
I'm sure we can
Thanks for the great news
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McMeadows
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right here, right now
Mar 1999
time: 06:26
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McMeadows says:
early birthday present
with love and music form Euphorica
Paddy says:
thank you
Transfer of "Antioch.jpg" is complete.
Paddy says:
most interesting indeed
McMeadows says:
What are the prospects?
Paddy says:
walls, a spear, 2 cats, 2 horse and 6 immortals.... hmmm will be a blood bath. war on
McMeadows says:
no suprises ..
Paddy says:
they have more there than hoped, but such is war
McMeadows says:
we noticed. I hope the Horde has a positive outcome on the chances in war
Paddy says:
hahaha yuou mean a great rng win
McMeadows says:
I assume you have someone do battle calcs on the odds
Paddy says:
yes several of them. we did some run ups last week while AM were unable to play. we looked at a stack of options. just reading through them now. well lots of combinations were looked at. just not this combination. I need to get this off to my warmongers
...
Paddy says:
any chance of a heads up - ie some notice
McMeadows says:
what do you mean? when to expect the save?
Paddy says:
yep - nothing specific, just an email when you know
like: 5 hours from now or 12 hopurs away
McMeadows says:
I can do better than 3 hours. I'll speed up my thinking process
Paddy says:
hahaha
McMeadows says:
Did Babs get Feudalism?
Paddy says:
from their emails, I think so. they never answered my questions
McMeadows says:
What about techs now..? We can pusue monotheism
Paddy says:
well you are at the crux of my issue with Babs
McMeadows says:
20 turns at -9 gpt
Paddy says:
by keeping us blind then what are we to do this turn. but they superior, and know all
McMeadows says:
cheer up matey
Paddy says:
hahaha, indeed
McMeadows says:
quote:
ormuzd says:
but the facts are showing this is very likely
McMeadows says:
which facts?
ormuzd says:
there are two scientific teams, both of them in the medievalsone has feudalism. if it was DR, they should have pikes in Antioch. but there are only unfortified spears |
Paddy says:
that is a fact indeed
McMeadows says:
atm I need to know which tech to start and how much to give to AM... can you help me out?
Paddy says:
mate, I have no answer on tech. You have as many of the babs emails as me
McMeadows says:
hmmm...
Paddy says:
so basically as Babs have not given either of us details, then both our nations are lost for 1 turn.
McMeadows says:
Form Ormuzd I can safely asume it's feudalism
Paddy says:
well said
McMeadows says:
let us start on monotheism then. we'll need to proceed towards chivalry anyways
Paddy says:
ok, so what do we do
McMeadows says:
We have 90% of our income devoted to science... If you make your people happy and give us 40% of your income, we'll be able to maintain this tech rate... what do you think? Not required to make a decision now...
Paddy says:
awesome. I will take that to tyhe Horde
McMeadows says:
Just something to get started with now. We need to make some decisions now in good faith. I understand that things may change due to Horde or Eu background thoughts. But not chosing a direction is a lost turn for sure
alrighty... that has been settled for now... draft version
Paddy says:
yes. you need to know we are in for a world of hurt from barbarians. we have 2 stacks of 17 within 2 tiles of our northern town
that sure sucks...
Paddy says:
yes
McMeadows says:
isn't that close to us?
Paddy says:
so until I get the save I have no idea if I have gold left etc. A long way from you
McMeadows says:
doesn't matter.... the gold I refer to is the income from each turn... so if you gain 10, we get 4
whatever you have in treasure is not our bussiness...
Paddy says:
sounds very good to me
McMeadows says:
we do need to get to the reward for AM..
Paddy says:
understand I need to run that past our Horde Auditors etc
McMeadows says:
I do understand... I need some backup as well
Paddy says:
certainly mate
McMeadows says:
AM-reward now...
Paddy says:
yes, how much was it
McMeadows says:
they payed 73
Paddy says:
ok
McMeadows says:
what do you think? We'll make it a 100? we pay 40..
Paddy says:
100? sorry you lost me
McMeadows says:
they had 73 costs... they should be rewarded and therfore get a little extra I think
Paddy says:
oh ok
McMeadows says:
So I donate them 40 gold?
Paddy says:
yes mate
McMeadows says:
ok Can I tell Ormuzd you'll give them 60?
Paddy says:
yes indeed
McMeadows says:
done...
Paddy says:
thanks mate
Transfer of "C3CDG, Euphoriscians, 1250 BC.SAV" is complete.
Paddy says:
did DR chase your troops through the mountains
McMeadows says:
no
Paddy says:
good just tryiong numbers. are you holed up resting, or on your way home?
McMeadows says:
We're half way and taking a recovery rest
Paddy says:
ok
McMeadows says:
we'll have to decide what to do
Paddy says:
just getting my collective intel together before the Horde meets. I expect a crucifixion upcoming
McMeadows says:
it's an option to throw in all we have to keep the pressure on DR. With BOH working on money and us on science, it would not be all that uncomfortable to have feudalism and upgrade our units. just some thoughts..
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snoopy369
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Of the Peanuts Gallery
Apr 2004
time: 23:26
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Ljube says:
OK, have also to talk to you about the demo game
Ljube says:
but after your dinner and my shower
Ljube says:
if you have time, if not I'll send an email later
snoopy369 says:
k
snoopy369 says:
you back yet?
Ljube says:
back
snoopy369 says:
ah
snoopy369 says:
ok
Ljube says:
We're pullin out our forces.
snoopy369 says:
so i gather you want to talk about CM's pots
snoopy369 says:
post*
Ljube says:
which one?
Ljube says:
ah yes
snoopy369 says:
the one about pulling your forces
Ljube says:
yes, well no point in sacrificing then on antioch
Ljube says:
heavily defended antioch
snoopy369 says:
Ljube says:
OK, so the plan now is to get to chivalry as fast as we can
snoopy369 says:
That's always been the plan.
Ljube says:
yes, well, it would have been best if we hadn't come after the DR at all, if we had let them attack you
Ljube says:
there our forces would have waited
Ljube says:
and destroyed their immortal armies
Ljube says:
but never mind, at least sidon is destroyed
snoopy369 says:
Antioch is not heavily defended.
Ljube says:
what makes you say that?
snoopy369 says:
One spear, and a bunch of immortals?
snoopy369 says:
many of whom are injured?
Ljube says:
yes, we have not enough forces for so many immortals
snoopy369 says:
How many forces did you send ??
Ljube says:
21 in that wave
snoopy369 says:
21 is more than enough, i'd say
Ljube says:
we're preparing more forces even as we speak
snoopy369 says:
7 defensive units, and taking damage into account 4-5?
snoopy369 says:
you have 3 times as many units as them (ignoring horsemen and catapults)
Ljube says:
it's not that simple, many regulars, can promote
Ljube says:
very nasty
Ljube says:
we would have lost all
snoopy369 says:
I'm aware of how the game works
snoopy369 says:
I think you'd win easily ...
snoopy369 says:
I see at most 5 HP possible from promotions
Ljube says:
well, I prefer attacking with knights/keshik
Ljube says:
you can attack from greater distance
snoopy369 says:
Let me put it to you this way.
snoopy369 says:
We sacrificed nearly our entire army, so this attack could go through.
snoopy369 says:
In my opinion, and the opinion of my team as far as I understand it, the attack has a good chance for success.
snoopy369 says:
We will be very unhappy if you pull out now, in addition to the frustration and outright anger we have over Chrisius' frankly absurd post.
Ljube says:
none of this had any chance of success
snoopy369 says:
If we are to consider BoH an ally, you must be trustworthy, that once an attack is committed to, it is followed through on
Ljube says:
first, attacking immortals and many of them for taht matter with swords is outright suicide
Ljube says:
no matter what?
snoopy369 says:
No matter what.
Ljube says:
no matter if all of us are broken after that?
snoopy369 says:
We lost a lot of good units to weaken them to this point.
snoopy369 says:
If you take antioch, and I believe you would, DR is finished.
snoopy369 says:
If not, they have a good chance to regroup.
Ljube says:
The units you lost are not so good and nearly useless against the DR, in my opinion. I suggest the following plan.
snoopy369 says:
Sorry, ljube.
snoopy369 says:
I'm not interested in listening to a plan right now.
snoopy369 says:
You and Chrisius have a lot to answer for about his post in the forum, before we go any further here.
snoopy369 says:
That post, regardless of your battle plans, was a betrayal.
snoopy369 says:
A betrayal of our trust, and an inappropriate airing of internal concerns in a public forum.
Ljube says:
I disagree.
snoopy369 says:
I don't care.
snoopy369 says:
It is how we see it.
snoopy369 says:
If you have problems with our plans, if you have problems with anything in-alliance, you talk about it internally.
snoopy369 says:
You don't post it in public forums where anyone can see it.
Ljube says:
A betrayal is when we abandon you, don't protect you against common enemies, attack you, etc... Not when we save our units so we may attack another day
Ljube says:
and in better circumstances
snoopy369 says:
I'm not talking about the battle plans.
snoopy369 says:
First off, if you're going to do something like this - withdraw from a planned attack - that better be talked about between us rather than aired in public first.
snoopy369 says:
Secondly, though, he was outright insulting to both the babylonians and to us in that post.
Ljube says:
Well, I don't see how he was insulting. He merely stated some facts.
Ljube says:
We sent most of units and achieved the only tangible victory for our allaince.
Ljube says:
In fact we removed a very dangerous outpost Sidon.
Ljube says:
DR were threatening to launch an assault on you from that outpost.
Ljube says:
Look at the pattern of roads they built. Clearly, they intended to attack Metallica.
Ljube says:
That is not possible anymore.
Ljube says:
Our units are preserved to fight another day.
snoopy369 says:
Ljube, i'm not ready to discuss the battle plans yet.
Ljube says:
Our units are mainly horses, thus chivalry will make great impact.
snoopy369 says:
We agree that chivalry will be a great boon to both of our civilizations.
snoopy369 says:
However, that does not mean we need to abandon the current attack.
snoopy369 says:
It costs a huge amount of money to upgrade a horseman to a keshik.
snoopy369 says:
You can't reasonably upgrade many of them.
Ljube says:
If you are planning another wave of attacks, I'm happy to hear about it.
snoopy369 says:
This attack may be the best chance for those units to actually do some damage.
snoopy369 says:
We probably will indeed wait until chivalry to attack on our own, unless there's a good opportunity; we have little in terms of forces at the moment, thanks to our sacrifice.
snoopy369 says:
However, there's no reason for you to wait.
Ljube says:
What you are suggesting is a suicide. We want a good fight, but a fight which we can win.
snoopy369 says:
You will likely win this battle - you have literally 3 to 1 numbers, and the attack : defense is not 1:3
snoopy369 says:
not on average anyway
snoopy369 says:
and as i said the HP numbers are even more in your favor
snoopy369 says:
and destroying Antioch, and thus making it hard if not impossible for DR to maintain their iron, will be a boon to our civilizations unmatched by any other
snoopy369 says:
you can't win a game without taking chances
Ljube says:
I don't see what is th eproblem with what we did. Our forces will protect your horse city, which you should build asap. Then, you should start building horses which will later be upgraded to riders.
snoopy369 says:
but this is not an unreasonable chance
Ljube says:
do you play chess?
snoopy369 says:
Yes.
Ljube says:
you do?
snoopy369 says:
However, I don't see that this is particularly relevant here ... Chess has no random factor.
snoopy369 says:
unless you see your opponent as being a random player, but then he's probably not very good
Ljube says:
It is relevant to the state of mind
Ljube says:
here is how it goes
snoopy369 says:
Sometimes you need to sacrifice a larger piece to gain a better position ... that's how I see it.
Ljube says:
in chess, the best trait is the ability to understnd when to switch from offensive to defensive
snoopy369 says:
sure
Ljube says:
players that have keen understanding of that are succesful
snoopy369 says:
not sure i'd say best, but certainly high up there
Ljube says:
those that keep attacking no matter what regularly lose
snoopy369 says:
You should have decided this weeks ago, Ljube
snoopy369 says:
this force is not unlike what we expected
Ljube says:
Our best chance at the moment is to regroup and plan another operation with chivalry. The DR will likely celebrate this as victory and maybe try a counter attack.
snoopy369 says:
I have no doubt that the Horde has differing opinions, and this causes the change
snoopy369 says:
but ... it's not acceptable to your allies
snoopy369 says:
a few weeks ago, this was considered a good attack
Ljube says:
well, we didn't know all facts at the time
snoopy369 says:
now we take out half of their immortals, essentially, and in doing so lose a large chunk of our forces
snoopy369 says:
This force is not unlike what we expected
Ljube says:
teh DR proved stronger than expected and the commitment of our allies weaker
snoopy369 says:
we hoped perhaps a smaller one - but not surprised by this either
snoopy369 says:
You of all people have no business saying that last statement.
snoopy369 says:
Babylon attacked - not as big a force as i'd have liked, but they at least did their duty
snoopy369 says:
We distracted DR for as long as we could
snoopy369 says:
while we waited and waited for your group
snoopy369 says:
You delayed 1 turn ... remember, about 4 turns ago?
snoopy369 says:
moved 1 towards us before going in?
snoopy369 says:
that's the difference between you facing 3 units, and you facing 9.
snoopy369 says:
Allowed DR to get 6 Immortals into the town.
Ljube says:
well, better to have delayed 4 more turns and joined the army group west
Ljube says:
and you could have also sent reinforcements
snoopy369 says:
Timing is everything in this
Ljube says:
I had expected that much of you
snoopy369 says:
And left our homeland entirely empty? No.
snoopy369 says:
We had no significant reinforcements, anyway
snoopy369 says:
at the time our forces left, we had a single swordsman in the entire territory
snoopy369 says:
and a few small units
snoopy369 says:
1 horseman, 1 or 2 archers
snoopy369 says:
that's it
snoopy369 says:
we might have added 1 or 2 swordsmen at best
snoopy369 says:
we have a grand total of 5 at the moment ...
Ljube says:
ok, what is doen is done, now we must look to the future
Ljube says:
the future is bright if we recognise the opportunities and seize them
snoopy369 says:
We believe that antioch must be destroyed, and that your force has a good chance to do it.
Ljube says:
this is passion and not reason talking
Ljube says:
antioch will be destroyed, in time
snoopy369 says:
Hah.
snoopy369 says:
Reason, in fact, not passion.
snoopy369 says:
I am not one to get passionate about very much, honestly.
snoopy369 says:
That's why i'm still talking to you.
Ljube says:
LOL, the oters are pissed?
snoopy369 says:
Heck, i'm pretty pissed
snoopy369 says:
and it's not a laughing matter ...
snoopy369 says:
I'll be very shocked if Babylon remains in our alliance, after that farce of a post by CM
snoopy369 says:
very shocked indeed
snoopy369 says:
with luck they won't join DR.
Ljube says:
their commitment has proven them not needed at all
Ljube says:
let them
Ljube says:
if they help teh dr the way they helped us, the DR is lost
snoopy369 says:
If that is how you treat your friends ...
Ljube says:
they did very little to show their friendship
Ljube says:
unlike you of course
snoopy369 says:
Look. This game is not the same as a normal PBEM, Ljube, and you have to understand that in a game like this, the most important thing to an alliance is trust and follow through. We have to trust that you will do what you say you will do, or there is no point in us allying with you.
Ljube says:
indeed
snoopy369 says:
Attack or not, that is obviously your call.
Ljube says:
we never said we would attack antioch
snoopy369 says:
However, it will be very negatively viewed in our eyes if this is called off.
snoopy369 says:
That's a lie.
Ljube says:
we said we would attack and destroy sidon
Ljube says:
that we did
snoopy369 says:
Paddy repeatedly reassured us that you were on the way to antioch.
Ljube says:
we were on our way, but never sure of the actual attack
Ljube says:
you see, we're a large team, so many people doing math and things
snoopy369 says:
You're a black box as far as we're concerned.
snoopy369 says:
What happens on the inside matters none to us
Ljube says:
so, it was never planned that the horde would perform a suicide mission
snoopy369 says:
we want to know what you *do*.
Ljube says:
we wanted to take antioch, not try and fail
snoopy369 says:
As i said before, it is your team's choice as to go to attack or pull back.
snoopy369 says:
However
Ljube says:
it's not the horde way to try and fail
snoopy369 says:
it will be viewed very negatively on our end for you to pull back.
snoopy369 says:
You must sometimes take risks ... you will never succeed otherwise.
snoopy369 says:
If you always act according to the math ...
snoopy369 says:
after all, look at DR's second attack on us
snoopy369 says:
that certainly wasn't according to the math ...
Ljube says:
they play tested it
Ljube says:
the only reasonable explanation
snoopy369 says:
I don't think they cheated.
snoopy369 says:
Anything else would show that the odds are that they lose on the average.
Ljube says:
yes
snoopy369 says:
We had 4+ average defense on that mountain.
Ljube says:
yes
snoopy369 says:
Even straight up, they'd be losing more than they killed ... hence, I think they took a chance, knowing they had one good opportunity.
Ljube says:
I don't think so. They tested the outcome, plain and simple.
snoopy369 says:
That's why DR is in a good position right now ... they take chances when needed. Our side has not done so as yet.
snoopy369 says:
That's cheating, and nobody on the DR team would I even imagine accusing of such.
snoopy369 says:
Accusing them of cheating is the coward's way at it.
snoopy369 says:
We admit that they took a chance, and beat us.
Ljube says:
I wouldn't accuse them in public, no, I have no proof, and yet that's what they did, logic dictates that.
snoopy369 says:
No. That's the coward's way - blaming others for your failure (or poor luck, or whatever.)
snoopy369 says:
I call it what it is - taking a chance, and it paying off.
snoopy369 says:
I have enough guts to say that they beat us, plain and simple.
snoopy369 says:
Now we need to counterattack in the same way - take that chance, now that the opportunity lies on our side.
Last edited by McMeadows on 13-07-2005 at 13:08
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snoopy369
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Of the Peanuts Gallery
Apr 2004
time: 23:26
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Ljube says:
they beat us now, but soon with chivalry, they will lose
Ljube says:
the fact that you fail to see is that delaying our attack benefits us all
Ljube says:
thsi attack if executed now, may succeed and may not
Ljube says:
but an attack with keshiks and riders will succeed
Ljube says:
and teh DR are gone
Ljube says:
there is no defence from keshiks and riders
snoopy369 says:
By then they'll have pikemen, if not muskets
snoopy369 says:
4 attack versus 3+50%+50% defense
Ljube says:
haha, no muskets
snoopy369 says:
you'll have the same argument then ...
snoopy369 says:
pikemen are better than muskets anyway
Ljube says:
how so?
snoopy369 says:
better GP per HP ratio by far
Ljube says:
who will supply them with techs necessary for that? we won't
snoopy369 says:
it's a commonly accepted strategy to wait to connect saltpetre until Cavalry ...
snoopy369 says:
They're already researching Feudalism, undoubtedly
snoopy369 says:
will finish that before we finish chivalry by a long shot
Ljube says:
they are not even in teh next age, are they?
snoopy369 says:
if they got Engineering, then they could easily get to muskets before we attack
snoopy369 says:
We believe they may be in the next age
Ljube says:
just a sec
snoopy369 says:
I am not sure why we believe that - McM could say - but we believe it.
Ljube says:
they are in teh next age, you are right
Ljube says:
they don't have monarchy and literature, but have oter techs
snoopy369 says:
undoubtedly they are pushing for Feudalism
Ljube says:
yes, unless they got it for free
snoopy369 says:
I think we believe they did not get it free
snoopy369 says:
Babylon may have confirmed that
snoopy369 says:
i'm not 100% sure
Ljube says:
then yes, they are probably pushing for feud
Ljube says:
they will need more than 20 turns I guess?
snoopy369 says:
I doubt it
snoopy369 says:
they are scientists
snoopy369 says:
and if they push for it ...
Ljube says:
that doesn't reduce the cost of techs, does it?
snoopy369 says:
been a while since i played a sci civ that far
snoopy369 says:
yes it does ...
snoopy369 says:
that's the only major advantage of sci
snoopy369 says:
without SGLs anyway, in many games
snoopy369 says:
and SGLs of course are only an advantage as a result of such
snoopy369 says:
i forget the difference - it may be 50% bonus to lightbulbs -> 66% of normal times
snoopy369 says:
but it's been a while
Ljube says:
I thought it was the extra tech at the beginning of every age, not discount on techs
snoopy369 says:
i believe it is both (and i'm not sure how i forgot that )
Ljube says:
uh, then it is overpowering
Ljube says:
I doubt it
Ljube says:
Even teh bonus tech is very strong, if tech discount, that's too much.
Ljube says:
well anyway, they were unlucky, they didn't get feud, so we should hurry with preparations for our new atatck.
Ljube says:
tell me, how many turns till monotheism, I suppose you're researching that?
snoopy369 says:
i don't recal
snoopy369 says:
you may be right, it's been too long since i played sci civ
Ljube says:
Snoopy, which tech is more expensive: Monotheism or engineering?
snoopy369 says:
20 turns i think
snoopy369 says:
Mono or Engineering ... Mono
snoopy369 says:
Mono and FEudalism are same, i think
snoopy369 says:
F is definitely the more expensive, tied with one other
snoopy369 says:
i worked this out a while ago but i have poor memory
snoopy369 says:
but ... this is really beside the point
Ljube says:
I think it is a very important point, as I could tell you what teh DR got.
snoopy369 says:
doesn't matter
snoopy369 says:
i'm pretty sure they failed to get Feudalism
Ljube says:
Yes, but if they got mono, perhaps it could be extracted from them inexchange for monarchy and literature.
Ljube says:
that would speed us up to chivalry
Ljube says:
think positive, think about the future
snoopy369 says:
okay now i'm confused
snoopy369 says:
my info in my spreadsheet indicates feudal is the cheaper, M=E>F
snoopy369 says:
but i think this is incorrect
Ljube says:
this is correct
snoopy369 says:
hmm, then my other info was incorrect
Ljube says:
feudal is teh cheapest tech offered to us, mono follows, eng is teh most expensive
Ljube says:
do you have feud?
Ljube says:
in game
Ljube says:
this is how it stands right now
Ljube says:
thsi implies that teh DR got mono
snoopy369 says:
we don't
snoopy369 says:
i don't think have feudalism
Ljube says:
this means, if we're smart, we can extract it from them and make it the instrument of their doom, hmm...
snoopy369 says:
we will have Feudalism next turn, i presume
snoopy369 says:
but yes forcing DR to give you monotheism would be nice
snoopy369 says:
but i doubt it would work
snoopy369 says:
and i'm not willing to make a fake peace deal
Ljube says:
perhaps it would, for peace
Ljube says:
it's not fake
Ljube says:
it's a 20 turns peace deal
Ljube says:
just like any other and when it expires, hehe
snoopy369 says:
i doubt they'd take it
snoopy369 says:
if they would, they're idiots
snoopy369 says:
and they're not ...
Ljube says:
it;s worth a try
snoopy369 says:
not sure who's active over there, but you have most of the great DG players on that team
Ljube says:
it would be very nice to get mono, but in any case, we can research it at higher pace now that they have it
snoopy369 says:
yes
Ljube says:
OK, so you're 20 turns from it. who is going to do teh researching and who is going to do teh funding?
snoopy369 says:
This has been determined already, as far as I understand
snoopy369 says:
look, i'm tired of talking right now, and you have gotten us off of the subject.
Ljube says:
I heard it was us giving money, you researching
Ljube says:
ok
snoopy369 says:
I suggest holding onto the turn and discussing this more tomorrow.
Ljube says:
all right
snoopy369 says:
Good night.
Ljube says:
it's paddy's birthday anyway
Ljube says:
good night to you too
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snoopy369
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Of the Peanuts Gallery
Apr 2004
time: 23:26
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I'm pretty irritated about this. Ljube is entirely unwilling to budge, and doesn't seem to comprehend how offensive CM's post is to me (and I presume to us?), regardless of BoH's sudden withdrawl of forces (or imminent withdrawl). Ljube as far as I can tell is simply unwilling to take a chance - and I don't get how he thinks they will be able to upgrade ANY of their horsemen to keshiks. 150 or something each? At least 75 anyway, I always forget the number.
My opinion, clearly stated above: They need to attack Antioch. They need to apologize, profusely, and mean it, for CM's post. They need to show us that they are a team we can count on in the future ... which honestly I think they are not, and will not be, due to their internal workings and difficulties.
I'm not averse to contacting AM and considering a strike on BoH, once we get monotheism. I don't want to do anything in this direction yet - but I think it is worth consideration, and serious consideration, if it becomes possible.
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McMeadows
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right here, right now
Mar 1999
time: 06:26
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1. The info that led to their withdrawal talk has come into their hands through us and was supplied by AM. Them lacking to consider this option, makes them all less that much of bright "chess players". (chess is played between 2 persons without any diplomacy, a crucuial factor in DG).
2. Taking Sidon was the biggest laugh of the century, It was virtually undefendend. From post-battle communications with Aqua I understood it had been undefended for a while, if BOH had been moving faster = not waiting for all their units, they could have walked into Sidon.
3. Last turn BOH was already in striking position and they didn't attack. That delay must have had DR move in more units.
4. DR is in GA, research is therefore hugely boosted. Feudalism won't be that much of an effort.
5. If we keep weakening DR all together, they'll lag in development, which will benfit our next battle. It's an investment, like we invested in getting them in that position. At least we took 6 immortals down.
6. Upgrading horsmen to knights costs 120 gold.
7. I want to see numbers to have their retreat justified. If there's a reasonable chance I cannot accept their reteat.
8. We're 20 turns from monotheism. Having BOH support us financially is in a draft version.
9. I'm quite angry...
10. I pitty Paddy, as this sure will ruin his birthday, he takes things like this personally and the TNA is his baby.
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snoopy369
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Of the Peanuts Gallery
Apr 2004
time: 23:26
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Convo w/Paddy recently this evening ...
snoopy369 anyway
snoopy369 what is going on in c3cdg
snoopy369 or to put it bluntly - what are chrisius and ljube on?
Paddy that is a good question
snoopy369 /me points to the white powdery stuff ... *-)
Paddy hehe
snoopy369 so ... to put perhaps another question bluntly
snoopy369 who is in charge?
Paddy good question
Paddy seems we have 3 power bases
snoopy369 lol ... i can guess
snoopy369 1. Stick with TNA 2. Pull back and then stick with TNA 3. Screw TNA
snoopy369 *-)
Paddy I went away for a party, came back to this
snoopy369 yeh we figured
snoopy369 the timing ... did not surprise me
Paddy you know Ljube and his histories
snoopy369 oh yes
snoopy369 had a long conversation with him yesterday
Paddy well I thought that was not an iossue here
Paddy ahhh
snoopy369 i still don't get why he thinks the attack on antioch is a poor decision ... you're somewhere between 160 and 170 'offense points' and they have under 150
snoopy369 but anyway
snoopy369 oh my god ... Mike Tyson is getting involved in the Adult Film industry
snoopy369 (some things require a step back (lol) )
snoopy369 anyway
Paddy eeeeeeek
snoopy369
snoopy369 anyway ... i think we need to figure out what's going on
snoopy369 and it sounds like *you* need to figure this out first
snoopy369 so if that is the case i'll leave you alone until you figure that out
Paddy thanks
Paddy as you know the horde is large, and fragmented in timezones
snoopy369 yessir
snoopy369 i'll just say this ... we, both we and babylon, expect an attack on antioch this turn, as is consistent with our original plan ... and expect some sort of apology from Chrisius specifically, as he made a lot of people very, very personally mad
snoopy369 but ... we have faith that many members of the Horde are stil faithful to our alliance, and still intend on our end to fully honor our alliance, assuming that is what is desired
snoopy369 and are gladdened by the pro-alliance response of some Horde members to that post by CM ...
snoopy369 anyway take your time ... I'm very busy the rest of the week (July 16 anyone? *-))
snoopy369 but i'll try to get online a bit every day at least
Paddy thanks mate
snoopy369 OTOH McMeadows apparently has a bit of time off or something like that
snoopy369 so perhaps he will be easier to talk to
snoopy369 have a good one ... keep me in the loop
Paddy indeed
Paddy trying to stay in the loop myself3
snoopy369 yeh ;(
Paddy be well
Paddy thank you for this chat
snoopy369 yessir thank you as well
snoopy369 be well as you say
Paddy oh, did you send Ljube your password?
snoopy369 yes sir i did
Paddy thanks mate
Paddy I am off back to bed - sleeppp
Paddy the Horde will gather in coming 5 hours and play the save
snoopy369 kk
Paddy we will not be delaying like this again
Paddy that much is clear
snoopy369 the delay before playing is not objected to
Paddy thank you
Paddy be well
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snoopy369
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Of the Peanuts Gallery
Apr 2004
time: 23:26
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snoopy369 where be we ;)
Paddy we are not far along then at all
Paddy several questions for you if that is fine?
snoopy369 well how can we correct that ;)
snoopy369 :t
snoopy369 go for it
Paddy are you in comms with DR?
Paddy we are.
snoopy369 I don't think so
Paddy are there more than you and Mac involved in your team?
snoopy369 I'm not sure ;)
Paddy hahaha
snoopy369 but i'm not sure it's relevant either ...
Paddy love that certainty
Paddy well relevant to us - but then we are different to you guys :)
snoopy369 Why?
Paddy just a common question raised here
snoopy369 i'm just saying i'm not sure why it's relevant ;)
Paddy many reasons
Paddy cool
snoopy369 but anywho :)
Paddy indeed
Paddy ok, we both know of approx each others battle groups stats etc
snoopy369 sure
Paddy and that we can hurt each other
snoopy369 yep
Paddy and DR are still there
Paddy now I asked for what you wanted back for peace etc
Paddy and that was a big ask
Paddy but in that we may find common ground
snoopy369 yes
snoopy369 one sec loading the save so i can use it as reference ;)
Paddy and if, IF we are to do something together, then their will be a lot of new ground available down south as well
Paddy ;)
snoopy369 ok
snoopy369 of course
snoopy369 and i don't mind certainly granting you most of the western lands, that's the least we could give you, assuming there's some sort of guarantee of nonagression (since you will be so close to our territory)
Paddy I think that soundss feasible
snoopy369 what would you be looking at as a line?
Paddy as to non-agression - I believe that we need to work on our comms
Paddy along a border etc, that is so open at the moment
Paddy I could give you the top 5 ideas that have been presented - but that would be better for Plato and the auditor general department to narrow that down etc, then meet with you and discuss
Paddy as this a new era, the department heads have stepped up a notch in their responsibilities etc
snoopy369 yessir
Paddy allowing me to have a more Macro role
snoopy369 :t
Paddy cool
snoopy369 my question to you then is this
Paddy ok, and I still have a few :)
snoopy369 can we agree at this stage to a temporary cease-fire/cease-advancement, assuming my answers to your few questions are agreeable
snoopy369 as i don't mind waiting - as long as it takes - but we only have a few more turns left, and if we're going to team in a way with you, we need to plan for DR's imminent arrival now ;)
Paddy yes indeed
Paddy on cease fire, may I ask a few more questions first
snoopy369 yes sir
snoopy369 as i said assuming my answers are agreeable ;)
snoopy369 go for it
Paddy cool
Paddy do you have only 3 cities?
snoopy369 hrm
snoopy369 you have to understand, that until we agree to a ceasefire we're still hostile enemies ... i'm not sure i should/can give information like that
snoopy369 if there's a particularly vital reason to give it, i may
Paddy ok, I understand you point indeed.
Paddy not vital, just on the list :)
snoopy369 understood
snoopy369 I think you're asking us if we have/will establish a city away from our home territory
Paddy many many questions were raised, we culled the list for Plato, I just trying to be polite (as I need to make effort as old despotic dictator)
snoopy369 yessir
snoopy369 i'm just saying i think that's why you are asking that question ;)
Paddy good point
Paddy there are always rumours of that sort of thing in any game where by another nation helps or a galley escapes etc
snoopy369 ;)
Paddy mainly my point was to do with where you are at the moment, in your natural lands.
snoopy369 Okay. :)
Paddy not too concerned with elsewhere
snoopy369 In our natural lands, we have what we had before the war.
Paddy thanks
snoopy369 That's not a secret. :)
Paddy tx
Paddy do you have a harbour in rolling Stones?
snoopy369 ?
Paddy have you built a "Harbour" in your sea side town of Rolling Stones?
snoopy369 I don't ... but i'm still confused why you want to know ;)
snoopy369 We* don't
snoopy369 can't you see anyway?
snoopy369 or is that only airports, i forget
Paddy remembering that I am here with the lists of many Horde mewmbers etc. all rasons for questions I do not have here, I need to track that down, can find that, would need 10 - 20 mins to do that though.
snoopy369 yessir it's fine
snoopy369 i answered it ;)
Paddy yes - :)
Paddy have you built a "Harbour" in your sea side town of Beach Boys?
snoopy369 Yessir
Paddy ok - thanks
Paddy Iron - we have 2 sources
snoopy369 yours and ours? :)
Paddy yes indeed
Paddy we would want to be your source of iron - not another nation through Harbour.
snoopy369 I told you last time, that we'd pretty much require metallica back ...
snoopy369 we'll give a lot, but we'd pretty much require that
Paddy yes I kno - not at that plave yet onlist
snoopy369 yes ;)
snoopy369 oh, lol
snoopy369 *place
snoopy369 i thought plave was an aussi word for a while ;)
snoopy369 /me is dumb today
Paddy on Metallica / Fort Napster, if / when a hand over would take place - it would not be straight away
snoopy369 understood
Paddy plave - place
Paddy opps
snoopy369 yes i figured it out eventually ;)
Paddy 2.38am typo ;) blonde baldy at work
snoopy369 yessir
snoopy369 i usually figure those out ;)
Paddy hehehe
snoopy369 3 hours of sleep though
Paddy yes I do get some
snoopy369 Note that i'm not sure we'd require metallica specifically, but more we'd require the iron in our territory
Paddy so in interim, we would want to be your iron provider
snoopy369 hrm okay
Paddy we understand that their are other nations out there :)
snoopy369 yessir
Paddy ok. - brb phone
snoopy369 k
Paddy back
snoopy369 k
Paddy many questions here, alot are diplomacy stuff etc
snoopy369 continue :)
Paddy this road here - that resouce etc
snoopy369 yessir
Paddy not all that relevant to this turn in my opinion
Paddy just elevaluating them against wall map
snoopy369 yessir
Paddy ok, up north
Paddy I have a Brigade of Horse outside Rolling Stone
Paddy what to do
Paddy your city be empty :(
Paddy good too
Paddy we move back this turn so not a threat
Paddy you?
snoopy369 :t
snoopy369 um
snoopy369 us what?
snoopy369 we stay there? :)
Paddy hehehe
Paddy yes but unit movements upo there
Paddy you have units - we know that
snoopy369 yessir
snoopy369 are you asking me if i'm going to move my stack in part or in whole into rolling stone?
Paddy basically
snoopy369 hrm
snoopy369 that's another question that is best answered after we have at least an agreement on a temporary ceasefire in principle ...
Paddy yes
Paddy as I check map etc - do you have questions
snoopy369 Our basic questions come in two categories, I think
snoopy369 one - what will we give/get for peace [gold, resources, territory, military commitments]
snoopy369 ultimately
snoopy369 and
snoopy369 two - what will we do this turn/next turn/the turn thereafter [cease fire, retreat troops, in relation to DR, etc.]
Paddy one - part 1. this turn we would both have to take this as a step of good faith... ie do the moves we agree on, and accept that part 2. Plato and you and / or your rep need to knuckle down all details asap...
snoopy369 yessir
Paddy two - DR - hmmmm that is a multi part question indeed
Paddy Aqua is an issue
Paddy 1 moment as I get my thoughts clear here on this
snoopy369 At
snoopy369 :t even
Paddy related questions - do you feel you could stand an assault on your Fortress ABBA by DR?
Paddy related questions 2. - you do wish to survive right?
snoopy369 hrm
snoopy369 question 1 - we think so, yes
snoopy369 them by themselves, we think we can survive
snoopy369 question 2 - we wish to survive as an ongoing concern - not as a meaningless vassal state
Paddy related question 3. - DR are going to be pissed, so we would need to be highly motivated and organised this time do you feel we can cordinate this time? (both of our teams failed in this previously)
Paddy q 2. We are not interested in vassal states
snoopy369 hrm
Paddy q 2. We much prefer strong and happy neighbours. and in that, if we do go ahead, we will work very hard to allow you rapid growth
snoopy369 I will certainly do my best
snoopy369 I think the problem before was almost more that there was not a consistent strategy on our side (us and you) ... mcmeadows and I did not entirely agree on military strategy, and certainly elements of your team had the same issue, and then us and you disagreed in parts of military strategy
snoopy369 the thing that needs to happen is a single strategy is decided upon, and then acted in concert by both sides upon
Paddy well said
Paddy yes
snoopy369 I could spend some significant time, on one particular day to be future-determined, doing so
Paddy cool
Paddy in that I would need Bongo there
snoopy369 i'm not sure I have time all the time to discuss - but if we discuss for hours at once, it is doable, as long as both stick to plan as long as possible ;)
snoopy369 yessir
Paddy He is the General in Theatre
snoopy369 monday is the best day for me - day off, and gf is at work
snoopy369 ;)
snoopy369 but
snoopy369 sunday is also possible, just not all sundays
Paddy indeed
Paddy in the interim, we could get some details possibly sorted via email?
snoopy369 We'd also i guess need to decide/know the status of LB and Babylon
Paddy they are an issue indeed
snoopy369 If the Horde is agreeable, I presume we can convince (not too difficultly) Babylon to peace with you, given the A-M problem
snoopy369 We would like to at least give them that option
Paddy babylon are a major issue
snoopy369 I'm not sure either of you would want to ally with each other again ;)
snoopy369 yessir
Paddy they have gone to great lengths to cause problems with us, also on the public threads - flame wars etc
Paddy we have a Horde ready to crush them at this time
snoopy369 yessir
snoopy369 I think realistically most of that goes back to one of their members ...
snoopy369 E_T has nothing against you, he simply doesn't want to be rushed to play the save ;)
Paddy Horde General Ruby Chaser and his team, along with RGO, have them out of the game in 4 - 6 turns.
Paddy E_T should accept the teams agreement to play the save or post a reason etc
Paddy He would not join when we started, claimed all reasons, now he dictates game turn play
Paddy we findf that a bit rich
snoopy369 i know, i'm not going to debate that
Paddy thank you
snoopy369 i think he feels stuck ;) but anyway
snoopy369 my point is, i think skro is the only person who really flamed you ;)
Paddy I think some of the players here forget that I approached over 100 Poly members to come play here
Paddy Skro - oh he is funny
snoopy369 he's young, or he acts it
Paddy but yes there are some issues with Babylon
Paddy we all like Skro
snoopy369 but Beta and Klo are fairly rational types ;)
Paddy really - hahaha
snoopy369 At least from my interactions.
Paddy that be for another time I think
snoopy369 I don't recall either of them flaming ;) but who knows
Paddy anyway Ruby and his Horde are ready to crush babylon - then they cme to us these past days asking us to pay them for some dodgey story of a great force about to attack us - all very strange and the intal they offered was for something way off - and no real point that it to us etc
snoopy369 hrm
snoopy369 E_T?
snoopy369 or do they have another player now :)
Paddy when explained troops poised, he kept going on that we thratening him - well yes... of xourse - that is war
Paddy Skro is the rep
snoopy369 ah yessir
Paddy they have many players
snoopy369 right he speaks but doesn't play
Paddy he posted in public threads to et and klo that he is still available to play
snoopy369 anyway, you might as well pay them if you're going to destroy them :)
Paddy no thanks
snoopy369 get the money back in 4 turns? :P
snoopy369 i'm just kidding
Paddy I not pay them to have them squader it
Paddy :)
Paddy LB are DR's mate.
snoopy369 Really?
snoopy369 now i'm confused ;)
snoopy369 they are your enemy and DR's ally?
Paddy they have been tech partners from day 1
Paddy yes indeed
snoopy369 day 1? or first contact ;)
Paddy Aqua is a snake
Paddy 1st contact :)
snoopy369 ah ok
snoopy369 well, that doesn't shock me
snoopy369 tho they were pretty backwards when we found them
Paddy DR have provided us much information
snoopy369 they were either not tech partners then and/or they were hiding it well
snoopy369 VERY well
Paddy ok
Paddy well I would expect the very well
Paddy also they have a long common border that needs little protection
Paddy DR stripped their lands to head north
snoopy369 ahh yessir
Paddy and gave us info on Lost Boys
snoopy369 lol not a very good ally then either ;)
snoopy369 or at least not a military ally at all
Paddy boastful of how good they are while begging
Paddy aqua is a snake
snoopy369 Going back to babylon for a minute, i'd like to suggest a really good reason for you to hold off on them for a while
Paddy complex
snoopy369 oh yessir i know that
snoopy369 anyway
snoopy369 Assuming you're not friends excepting the feudalism deal with A-M
Paddy do tell - I will take this phone call as you write
snoopy369 a destroyed babylon is a stronger A-M, far more than it is a stronger you
snoopy369 and Krill is a very, very good player, his youth regardless
Paddy back
Paddy A-m yes
snoopy369 yessir
Paddy a destroyed babylon is a happier world
snoopy369 Perhaps ... ;)
Paddy hehehe
snoopy369 i'm just saying that a destroyed babylon is a stronger A-M to your south
Paddy well I need to give that back to the council for discussion
snoopy369 of course
Paddy my personal feeling is that Babylon want out - so bye - poersonal feeling only I also team captain, so team can decide
snoopy369 yessir
snoopy369 I don't think Beta wants out - but he's gone atm so no way to involve him
snoopy369 i think he's back soon, but i forget when
Paddy if you think of any other reasons to keep babylon, please email Plato and I so we can get that to council asap :)
snoopy369 i shall consider it
Paddy ok, and beta back any day now :)
snoopy369 was Babylon suggesting that THEY Had a large force, or that someone ELSE had a large force?
snoopy369 good :t
snoopy369 my PM box was shockingly empty - no saves played for 3 days due to company/etc. and i have only 3 saves waiting for me :(
Paddy someone else
snoopy369 hrm
snoopy369 A-M or LB, i guess
Paddy hahaha
snoopy369 unless DR is being supertricksy ;)
Paddy doing the numbers, neither DR or AM have the troops to do that
Paddy well other then the forces we can see of theirs
snoopy369 no idea about any of their forces, so i have no idea ;)
snoopy369 excepting DR's of what we can see :P
Paddy cheers, thus we feel babylon trying to blow smoke at us
Paddy you can see nearly all of the DR force
snoopy369 hehe
snoopy369 oh i assume so yes
snoopy369 based on the 'strong' - 'weak' etc.
Paddy and some number calculations etc
snoopy369 yessir
Paddy ok 1 mo
snoopy369 i mean based on MY strong/weak calcs
Paddy yes
Paddy ok - if we agree to a cease fire for this turn and work very hard this week on peace and war plans etc then - can we now discuss troop movements up north I think there was another point we were going to discuss at this time - do you recall?
snoopy369 hmmmmmm
snoopy369 too many things going through mind to recall
snoopy369 but i can read up ;0
snoopy369 from our end, the short term = cease fire/cease advancement/disengage, and the long term = foreign relations, resource/boundaries/etc.
snoopy369 north is fine
snoopy369 what do you want out of us up north?
snoopy369 i presume you have specific desires given you bring up what looks to us to be a relatively irrelevant location ;)
Paddy DR will expect some action up there
snoopy369 action from you?
Paddy yes
Paddy not a great concern to me
snoopy369 well if you're trying to hide something, just act as if we abandoned said town ;)
Paddy hahaha
Paddy no not needed
Paddy ok, if I move my lads back, that allows you to move in...
Paddy or a truce in place
Paddy a literal cease fire in location
snoopy369 hmm
snoopy369 ?
Paddy well all units stay as they are
Paddy yu see us, we see you - we have 1 turn cease fire
Paddy then work on peace for next turm
snoopy369 you just asking me not to move units into Rolling Stones?
Paddy and we not attack
snoopy369 or do you mean you would like to leave the horses there
snoopy369 for one turn
Paddy literal cease fire
Paddy both sides stand in place up there
snoopy369 hmmm
snoopy369 that is probably doable
Paddy I do not have General Ljube here he may want his lads to regroup in one tile, they are currently 3 in 1 tile 1 in another
Paddy so possibly the 3 would move west 1 tile to regroup that is thus away from RStones
snoopy369 hmm
snoopy369 that would be fine
snoopy369 southwest i assume you mean, onto the 4th horse
Paddy yes, so either stand as is, or move back 1 tile.
snoopy369 yessir
snoopy369 that is acceptable to us
Paddy ahhh you can see them
snoopy369 yess rolling stones is on a hill
snoopy369 hence 2 square visibility ;)
snoopy369 well, or else it's the city boundary visibility
snoopy369 i've never been good at which is which
Paddy ok
Paddy with ceasefire - no razeing and no pillaging by \either side - ok
snoopy369 and we would have your word that you would not capture that city
Paddy Yes Great Lord, you would have my word
Paddy Enough damage has occurred
snoopy369 yessir
Paddy My people will honour a one turn cease fire
Paddy Yet wewould have to get moving on matters
Paddy and if we truelly to have peace with Babylon, then I have to tell you some intel and please do not take this too badly
snoopy369 of course
snoopy369 and of course
Paddy this would release quite a large force of troops for something else
Paddy my people have done the numbers, we currently out number DR and yourselves combined
snoopy369 no doubt
Paddy if this is an elaborate trap then having that force released from babylon would be most unwise
snoopy369 I am not one to create traps, sir
Paddy as their would be no more diplomacy
Paddy I have learnt that point Snoop
snoopy369 I ask on behalf of babylon, because they are our true allies ;)
Paddy Yet so too I know Aqua and his tongue
snoopy369 I am no friend of Aqua's. :)
Paddy ok.
snoopy369 I feel that Ankh-Morpork is the risk, and that Babylon is a smooth counter to A-M's forces
snoopy369 There's a high probability that if you go to war with DR, A-M would ally with said nation
Paddy Indeed
Paddy Many possiblilties there
Paddy Many
Paddy A_M have done well
Paddy taken some key towns from babylon
Paddy so I understand
snoopy369 no posting of battle reports, though
Paddy oh
snoopy369 not that I recall anyway?
Paddy I thought AM were double posting them
snoopy369 maybe i've been not noticing
snoopy369 they did a while ago
snoopy369 or do you just mean those a while gao
snoopy369 ago*
Paddy well been a while since save etc
Paddy ;) I an old man now, was young when we starteed
snoopy369 hehe
snoopy369 what, 2300 posts later *-)
Paddy and people get up me in the publiuc threads - struth I just a crotchety old despotic dictator that should be long gone ;)
snoopy369 lol
Paddy surely more than 2300 posts
snoopy369 well you be in feudalism, no? :)
Paddy feud... gov change you mean?
snoopy369 yessir
Paddy we despots
snoopy369 hrm okay
Paddy me DESPOT
Paddy ;)
snoopy369 :D
Paddy I thought my posts clearly showed that
snoopy369 lol
Paddy ahhh well I can make them a little more Khanish....
Paddy leave no one alive etc
Paddy hehehe
snoopy369 :)
Paddy ok, so we keep ceasefire secret business. if either side lets word out then peace off?
snoopy369 yessir
snoopy369 well at the discretion of the offended side :P
snoopy369 but yes i shall not release it outside of my team
snoopy369 your southern force shall also not advance i presume?
Paddy we will not advance - bad idea for a ceasefire
snoopy369 ;) yessir
snoopy369 but it is good to lay things out directly
Paddy well said
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snoopy369
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Of the Peanuts Gallery
Apr 2004
time: 23:26
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Just to get this off at the start:
I'm not sure if they're trustworthy here - but Paddy in the recent past has approached me and been very ... sorry, i suppose, about the misunderstanding that he feels personally responsible for.
Please don't believe for a minute that I'm talking to him about this because I feel they're trustworthy in general. Obviously there's something not trustworthy about them, whether it be intent or jumping to conclusions.
I believe this is our one-and-only chance to survive in this game, and so I am jumping on it. I have not agreed to anything excepting not attacking them this turn - so we can discuss
Ultimately, what the above breaks down to is:
1. They may be willing to re-up with us against DR. It would come with strings attached, but not puppet strings, at least according to Paddy.
2. They might, or might not, agree to giving us back Metallica. That would probably be a deal-breaker for me if they didn't, or didn't give us our own iron at least.
3. Babylon is probably not included in this peace deal - but I have made abundantly clear (in previous, short conversations) that at no time will I agree to attacking or giving information out about Babylon. I'm aware our peace with them will certainly screw babylon regardless - but my understanding is that Babylon has tried similar tactics with them (but failed), and I don't think Beta would blame us for this. I suspect Paddy's not lying when he says Babylon has not long for this world anyway, regardless of our actions.
What do we require as part of this peace deal, if anything, and what are we willing to give up for it, if anything?
We have about 170 gp at the moment. We also have one luxury ... but most importantly we have territory. My guess is we'll have to give them up to the river... which will suck for us, but i'll do my best to keep the fur up there (even if it means we gift it to them in perpetuity).
I'm prepared to offer them that, in exchange for metallica back, and a non-agression pact for 40 turns. They implied we wouldn't get Metallica right away; I may make it a condition that either they gift us iron, free of charge outside of whatever indemnity we pay them for the peace deal, until they give us Metallica back. I think they are concerned DR has allied with us, and we're teaming to screw them. (Too bad we couldn't do that, as I'd have been more than happy enough to, but this came first ... and i'm not going to betray someone, regardless of first betrayals.)
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14-06-2005 02:10
thanks for the great work sir McM ... will be back in a week to help take over some duties, but you're doing a great job in the interim 
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