06-02-2005 07:41									#1
	FA: Bloody Oath Horde Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

This is the Bloody Oath Horde Foreign Affairs thread. Please post any communications sent or received from the Bloody Oath Horde here.

	21-02-2005 02:02									#2
	Contact! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

We have made contact with the B.O.H. this turn (3800 BC). They have pottery (and possibly other techs?), we have masonry to trade them. Will offer it to them and try to get at least pottery plus possibly other stuff.

We also have the possibility of the archer rush - they're pretty close, about 8 turns away from the capital. In a few turns we'll know more.

Attachment: boh_contact.jpg
This has been downloaded 37 time(s).

	21-02-2005 07:24									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Discussion with Ljube:

code:

Ljube	Hello Glorious leader of our most civilised neighbours the Chinese. The Mongol ambasador greets you.
Snoopy369	Ah hello there then 
Snoopy369	I am indeed the most glorious backup guitarist of the Euphoriscians
Snoopy369	hrm or perhaps that is the lyricist
Snoopy369	yes, lyricist 
Ljube	I've been authorised by our Great Khan Paddy the Scot to conduct these negotiations on behalf of our Horde.
Snoopy369	ahh well perhaps our music can be harmonious ... 
Ljube	Indeed, we hope we can find a n accord.
Snoopy369	I believe we have already had an accord 
Ljube	So we have and a very beneficial one. We are ready to extend our cooperation to other areas.
Ljube	Our suggestion is very simple. We would like to avoid any possibility of 
accidental skirmish between our field forces.
Snoopy369	Hmm ... accidental skirmishes are so ... dischordious
Snoopy369	no, dischordant
Snoopy369	blah 
Ljube	Exactly my point. That is why we suggest that our warriors on scouting missions accept measures of restraint.
Snoopy369	hmm. I believe our musicians are quite adequately restrained ...
Ljube	The measures being: Your warriors refrain from moving westward, while our warriors stay where they are.
Snoopy369	 
Snoopy369	Well ... I think that is rather an excessively ... restraining restraint
Snoopy369	after all our Bards have a need to spread music around the world ...
Ljube	Westward movement by your friendly bards could by some of our more suspicious peers be construed as an
 assault. Now we wouldn't want that.
Snoopy369	We would think the Mongols might understand the desire of another to ...
 Explore ... given their natural traits ...
Ljube	Indeed, but we already agreed to restrain ourselves and not explore in your direction. We've 
handicapped ourselves heavily for the sake of establishing trust and friendship. Are Chinese not willing to do the same?
Snoopy369	The Euphoriscians will discuss your offer amongst ourselves before making an answer. However we
 think your paranoia about exploration is unfounded ... we have not entered your territory, after all ... and have no 
peaceful explorer available to us as you do. 
Snoopy369	We will get back to you within a reasonable time.
Ljube	We are pleased with our first diplomatic exchange. You must understand the people of the steppes. They are
 suspicious by nature. But in time, living beside such good neighbours they may learn your ways and open doors for 
trade and further cooperation. We thank you for the audience and understanding. In keen anticipation of your
 reply, yours truly, Mongolian Ambassador Ljube.
Snoopy369	We anticipate many fruitful discussions in the future...  Euphoriscian Lyricist Snoopy369

Last edited by snoopy369 on 21-02-2005 at 07:34

	21-02-2005 07:27									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Conversation with Paddy (first) :

Paddy hi there
Paddy how may I help
Snoopy369 ah
Snoopy369 so a wandering Euphorican bard hath spied on far mountaintop a wandering Hun
Paddy ahh hello
Snoopy369 and after throwing up a few times because of the sight of blood, wishes to discuss various matters
Paddy please before we go any further
Paddy may I copy this conversation to a thread for my Horde to read
Snoopy369 ah of course
Paddy cool, I love the role play
Snoopy369 and the same shall be done by ourselves.
Paddy so your lad throw up hey
Snoopy369
Paddy
Paddy discuss away
Snoopy369 Perhaps his throwing up might also have something to do with the fact that he cannot store his food properly ...
Paddy ahhh
Snoopy369 building houses is one thing, building jars is another
Snoopy369 he did happen to notice that your warrior lived only in a small tent ...
Snoopy369 and suggests that the ability to build more ... substantial ... buildings might be of help.
Paddy our tents help keep the flies from the blood
Snoopy369 hehe of course ... but a brick house might do even better
Paddy ahhh Bricks, ummm what ahh bricks
Snoopy369 well, that would be telling wouldn't it
Paddy ahh indeed
Snoopy369 but this here heavy thing i carry, if you know how to make many of them can make a large building
Paddy so let me wander back to the archives and see what we miht have to tempt you to tell
Snoopy369 hehe
Snoopy369 if you have need of a save i can play it out ... we have one or two changes that would be done
depending on the deal we might arrive at but i can make a guess
Snoopy369 no visible changes would occur anyway
Paddy sorry for delay, trades men at door
Snoopy369 no prob
Snoopy369 tell them you don't want any
Paddy ha
Paddy just opening last save
Snoopy369 k
Paddy dilema is I do not kn ow what you need, so do tell
Snoopy369 ah
Snoopy369 well just based on what you started out with, the presumption is that pottery is what we have not in common
Snoopy369 vs masonry
Snoopy369 both starting with warrior code
Snoopy369 of course you could have expansioned into a third tech in which case i dunno
Paddy I am happy to trade pottery for masonry
Snoopy369 lol i'd think
Snoopy369 do you have any other techs or just that?
Paddy I am happy to trade pottery for masonry
Snoopy369 lol company line
Snoopy369 hm
Paddy seems to be let me check that again I am happy to trade pottery for masonry
Snoopy369 hehe
Snoopy369 well, we're mostly happy to do so
Snoopy369 it is a bit of an uneven trade tho given we're about halfway to pottery ourselves
Paddy good
Paddy who can tell what we are up to with masonry
Paddy as another turn has swung by
Snoopy369 lol ... i'm sure it was the first tech you researched :P
Snoopy369 I think what we'd like is to do the trade and if we have another opportunity to trade but the
situation is reversed, you grant us a little leeway as well...
Paddy that sounds like a very sound solution in my books
Snoopy369 okay for reference the difference is about 40 beakers
Paddy trade is the opportunity to give and take
Snoopy369 give or take anyway
Snoopy369 so we will shake? I have approval of a majority of my team already ...
Paddy ahhh you are a beaker man
Snoopy369 lol
Paddy I agree to shake
Snoopy369 not really usually
Paddy shake
Snoopy369 just in this case it is useful
Snoopy369 :t
Paddy is that your shake?
Snoopy369 yessir
Snoopy369 shake
Snoopy369 i shall play the turn sending you masonry, you send us back pottery.

	21-02-2005 07:35									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Apologies that the thread got a bit wide, i did my best to fix it but not perfect.

So, what do you all think about Ljube's suggestion? And where are we going to go with the mongols - are they our archer rush target ??

My feeling, btw, is that we should not accept Ljube's suggestion; I don't think limiting our westward looking is a good idea. I also think we should consider building an archer somewhere so to protect us from the ... mongolian hordes.

We will have Pottery next turn btw from them.

	21-02-2005 11:00									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

1. Good job
2. Proceed in westward direction. Half of the Pangaea can be westward from that position.
3. BOH doesn't know for sure where we are. We found them. Obvious their scout went a different way. However, we might want to keep our other warrior close. And get our infrastructure up. The warrior might just camp out in the middle. Visitors will be spotted at the borders and warrior will be in time to defend any city.

	22-02-2005 05:17									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

code:

Snoopy	heya, you here?
Ljube	hello
Ljube	any news?
Snoopy	Well, we've considered your suggestion ... and want to discuss it. 
Ljube	OK
Snoopy	See, the problem we see is that you're clearly towards the 'middle' of the 
pangea from us, while we're closer to the 'edge'
Snoopy	so limiting our movement to the west will prevent us from seeing any civs
 to the west of you, of which there are probably several ...
Ljube	Interesting analysis
Snoopy	while we're probably closer to the eastern border, so there will be less civs to the east of us.
Ljube	However I can assert that there aren't any civilisations west of us since we're on the edge of the pangea ourselves
Snoopy	Hmm ... an interesting shaped pangea
Snoopy	or perhaps we are mistaken as to our location ... hm
Ljube	There has been an intense discussion in our Horde regarding your position
Snoopy	lol
Ljube	The majority think you are in the centre of the Pangea, but you seem to rule out that possibility
Ljube	I think you are in the northeastern direction of the current position of your warrior, but I'm alone in this
Snoopy	now i would be amused if this is a situation like in one of my games
Snoopy	my pbem games, with grandpatroll - ask him about expansionist
Ljube	What we wanted to ask you is to turn south
Snoopy	I'll not indicate our exact position of course  but ... hmm. 
Ljube	you may find more civilisations there
Snoopy	hmm ... lol ok
Ljube	OK, our warrior will stay where he is, and you may explore to the south but please avoid any progress westward
Snoopy	Hmm... how far south do we need to go before we can head westward? I would expect eventually to do so ...
Snoopy	eventually we'll hit the southern ocean after all 
Ljube	If you head westward at any time you will find desolate land devoid of all huts which
 our numerous scouts have already fully explored.
Snoopy	hehe 
Snoopy	Nonetheless it would be nice to head west at some safe point when we no longer risk threatening your settlements ...
Snoopy	understood that there are no huts, we don't exactly expect huts anywho 
Ljube	OK, when you have reached a barbarian settlement moving south you may head in the
 southwestern direction until you reach the jungle and move further to the southwest from there if you insist on 
moving to the west so much.
Ljube	But there is nothing in the west
Snoopy	Okay ... and thanks for the warning we shall consider not moving west  
Snoopy	at that point i mean
Snoopy	and if you would like we shall dispatch of the barbarian settlement there and at any other point you indicate
Snoopy	given our bards have skills your scouts may not ...
Ljube	absolutely appreciated
Ljube	lol
Snoopy	and your warrior will remain in place?
Ljube	yes, firmly
Snoopy	ok  if you decide to move him any direction other than west let us know first please
Ljube	of course, we want to have good relations with our friends the Chinese
Ljube	we are very happy with this agreement
Snoopy	hmmm k
Snoopy	let us know when/if you have technology to consider trading for
Snoopy	and/or if we have mutual interests in other manners, of course we shall have
 to get an embassy before something of that nature is accomplished ... 
Ljube	Pleasure to be dealing with you
Snoopy	
Ljube	Now I must report our agreement in our forum. The Horde will be pleased we have made a friend today.
Snoopy	yessir 
Snoopy	may we play beauteous music alongside your fierce horse riders

	22-02-2005 05:30									#8
	Got spare money?

So Discussion with Ljube. I tentatively agreed to the deal, particularly given the info he gave me; i did not get the idea he was lying, overly so at least. I tried to avoid giving away very much information except that which would get more from them, which (assuming they are telling the truth) seemed to work well.

I did manage to get him to let us go west eventually - we'll see how far that is, but he seemed quite substantially convinced that we have nothing to the west of us.

I think that we can't lose anything by this at the moment; as McM said in the turn thread 3750, we know exactly where they are and the BOH seems ... unclear on where we are exactly, certainly with no specific knowledge.

I suggest our first excess archer heads west to the same spot the warrior is on now, to ensure they keep to their part of the deal.

You'll notice that the specific deal pretty much indicated only these two warriors; ie, eventually if we decide to archer-rush them we can use this as a reason to legitimately break the deal. Of course the same can be said on their side - but we'll hold them more tightly, as we can archer rush them better anyway.

	22-02-2005 13:25									#9
	Got spare money?

Well done ambassador.
If I may, I'd like to summarize/ conclude:

1. BOH and Euphorica together fill the Pangaea West to East.
2. BOH is vulnerable at the moment as they're making so much efforts not to have us move East and/or they do not realise we are able to see the border of 1 of their cities.
3. BOH suggests us to move south because they haven't yet explored the north and want to get to the goodie huts before us.
4. There's no-one to the SW, so there's nothing we want to explore there. According to our oppurtunity to trade pottery for masonry (start tech for 4 of 6 civs) they speak the truth. I suggest we move ESE, finding Persia and others? Persia will be suprised to have us come in from the west. As I mentioned before I would like to have the other warrior close to home for the moment. Eventually I would like to see him explore to the north.

	22-02-2005 15:45									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

bullocks on no further east, I would of asked for at least the first mountain for a more clear view.

to late and a $1.50 short

	22-02-2005 15:51									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Um, i think you people have east and west confused ...

Anywho, the key takeaway here is that BOH has given away a lot of information on the map, and there's little reason to disbelieve them at the moment ... and we have a more ... significant problem to our East. (Desolation Row!) BOH has helped us in that we don't currently have a danger from both sides.

	24-02-2005 13:46									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

McMeadows says:
G'day mate
Ljube says:
hello
McMeadows says:
Any issues concerning C3CDG or just a measure to be able to communicate in the future?
Ljube says:
just to be able to communicate
McMeadows says:

Ljube says:
but only 3 teams responded so far
Ljube says:
aqua, beta and mor-pork did not
McMeadows says:
You have snoopy as well from Euphorica?
Ljube says:
yeah
McMeadows says:
.... it's now being discussed to have a dual job on the Foreigm Ministry
McMeadows says:
to guarantee 24 hour availability
Ljube says:
excellent idea
Ljube says:
paddy is also available almost all the time
Ljube says:
and he is our khan after all
McMeadows says:
haha... he's the exception to the rule...
McMeadows says:
You have ellected a leader?
Ljube says:
yes Paddy the Scot
McMeadows says:
hmm come to think of it, we have Snoopy as our team captain. However, we seem to be very democratically.
Ljube says:
wow, but you can't expect so much democracy from Mongols, now can you
McMeadows says:
It's not easy this way, but we do still respect our neighboors
Ljube says:
that's very nice, so do we
Ljube says:
about 4 spaces to the south, there is a barbarian hut for your warrior
McMeadows says:
target practise..

	25-02-2005 06:45									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Ljube says:
as the trust and friendship between our two peoples grows, we think that it can be cemented for eternety with a research treaty
Snoopy says:
Hmm. This will have to be ... discussed ... amongst the many peoples of the Chinese empire ... the Han ...
Snoopy says:
although ... perhaps your bretheren the Manchu ... might have some ... influence over us in this area ... it remains to be seen
Snoopy says:
So ... what is ... your plan that you ... bring?
Ljube says:
Researching different technologies and trading them.
Ljube says:
Researching second level techs in different branches
Ljube says:
gaetting technology edge
Snoopy says:
Hmm.... edge is good ...
Snoopy says:
Perhaps the Han shall discuss your ... proposals, and ... return with a measured response ... in a short time-frame.
Snoopy says:
It is said by our scholars, "He who works well with others, works well himself."
Ljube says:
As a token of goodwill on our side and appreciation for your consideration of our offer, we're going to share with you the secret of our current research project. We are on bronze working now.
Snoopy says:
We expect ... some time may be taken to discuss this proposal, as its effect will not be felt for a period of time. "Only fools rush in", as the great scholar Pres'ley El'vis says.
Snoopy says:
Alright... we will return to you in the fullness of time, with our decision. May peace guide your steps, my friend, and war drive your sword.
Ljube says:
War is hell. We have reached a decision to peacefully co-exist with your gracious nation. This agreement if signed will affirm our friendship and evolve into much more in time.
Ljube says:
May future generations look upon this moment with pride.
Snoopy says:
We are sure our ancestors (few though they are at this point) will look favorably upon our mutual gathering...

	26-02-2005 23:40									#14
	Get a bigger avatar today!

email from Ljube:

I am overjoyed to report that the Horde accepts the tech treaty you have
offered. It is so well designed and fair to both parties that after careful
deliberation we have found only one area where correction to one sub-article
is needed. We trust you will see the wisdom of this amendment of ours and
accept it as enthusiastically as we accept all other articles written by
you.


Article 5a. Any tech self-researched may be traded with others with no
penalty, providing (2) and (4) have been fulfilled and the tech is not
resource revealing or one of military tradition, nationalism and synthetic
fibers. Any resource revealing tech and also military tradition, nationalism
and synthetic fibers which may be self-researched or obtained otherwise will
not be traded with other civs without the acceptance of the other party.
Acceptance is automatic if the other party is not at war and tech is not
iron working, wheel or military tradition.

If you accept this minor modification of Article 5a, I'm authorised to offer
the following deal in accordance with the conditions of our tech alliance.
We're 3 turns away from bronze working. I suggest you give us bronze and we
proceed to iron. You should start the wheel and after we research these two
techs we shall trade iron for wheel which will take into account 3 turns you
saved us with your bronze working gift and the initial difference in price
between masonry you gave us and pottery we gave you. And our two civs will
have the monopoly on iron and horse.

Please send your reply quickly.

	26-02-2005 23:40									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

Email from me to Ljube:

Hmm. Nationalism??? Not exactly a crucial tech in stock Civ ... but i'm not too worried about it either.

I think one change should be made; iron working and wheel are too early to put in this amendment specifically, and very likely to be obtained quickly by others. We should discuss which other civs these can be traded with, yes - but i'm not sure they're of the nature of military tradition.

-snoopy369

	26-02-2005 23:40									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

email from Ljube:

Nationalism gives tough defender without the need for resources,
mobilisation and drafting, so yes, I would say nationalism belongs to the
group of techs that should not be shared by one of us with an enemy of the
other.

I accept your change regarding iron and wheel. We'll leave it out of the
amended Article 5a but agree to discuss sharing it with other civs. Since I
don't have any objection to your proposal we can consider our tech alliance
treaty SIGNED.

Hooray!

Now what about my proposal? You give us bronze now, we start iron, you start
wheel, we give you iron for wheel when we finish.

Ljube

	26-02-2005 23:42									#17
	Tired of ads?

Response to Ljube:

Wheel is already well underway (started it when you gave us pottery, actually!).

I will check as to BW. I personally think it's ok, we're giving you all a bit but it's all in the spirit of cooperation. (For reference, the pottery/masonry trade was similar - pottery we were 3-4 turns away from.) I'm asking now and hopefully people will respond before we play our turn.

Thanks,
snoopy369

	28-02-2005 02:19									#18
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Through a very complex bit of MSN messages (not worth posting here), we were first offered CB in exchange for BW, and then a few hours later that was retracted as BOH does not have CB yet, and it appears that their trade partners will be unable to send it to them, mostly because BOH intends to wipe the map with their blood. Sigh.

Ankh-Morpork is the BOH neighbor (to the south i presume), and it appears that they have placed a warrior within the BOH ZOC. They claim it will not attack the city, but we have feelings it is going to do otherwise of course.

BOH has confirmed that they are going to likely clear the world of Ankh-Morpork, and will hopefully soon be rid of them. Archer rush, gentlemen. And soon.

I did not commit us to helping, but said we might be able to help later if they need it, but in a very noncommital way. ATM we have more concerns, with Persia next door (even if they didn't go for IW, as they seem to not have gone.) CB should still be given to us eventually; but I wouldn't hold my breath.

One other thing - BOH seems to have a hard time believing anyone would research Pottery or that anyone would build a granary this early in the game.

Something to keep in mind.

	28-02-2005 08:36									#19
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 BOH has confirmed that they are going to likely clear the world of Ankh-Morpork, and will hopefully soon be rid of them. Archer rush, gentlemen. And soon.

Others fighting each other can only help us.

quote: One other thing - BOH seems to have a hard time believing anyone would research Pottery or that anyone would build a granary this early in the game. Something to keep in mind.

That actually might explain a lot since I know Paddy is running that team. I hate to say it, as he is a good guy, but I don't know if he is really a good civ player. I'm in several PBEMs with him and he hasn't really displayed any stellar tactics yet (and early granaries are something I would consider a good tactic).

In the two PBEMs I'm in that have been completed I used him ruthlessly to win in the Mesopotamian scenario and he didn't really display much to me there as I wasn't stopped at all. In the Age of Discovery game we played, when I won with the 35k victory points, Beta was closest to me with about 15k while the others had less than 10k.

Note I'm not trying to brag about my own skills, just point out a fact about Paddy that I've noticed.

	16-03-2005 19:19									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ljube and I discussed identical terms on the second goodie hut. We'll have to discuss what happens if a second settler comes out; a settler came from the first one.

They are 4 from Iron Working, which is pretty fast actually compared to what i expected.

Also, they apparently didn't go to war with A-M ... yet. They may end up doing so - but not in the shorter timeframe.

	20-03-2005 05:19									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Hmm. Apparently someone else has wheel, as the babs (who alpha was coming from) no longer offer it for wheel, they're getting it for mysticism instead. Probably from ankh-morpork, is ljube's and I's thought.

Ljube was fairly hostile originally about this, as he felt it was because of our dealing with another civ. I ensured he didn't feel like we were betraying them or anything, but also that I felt that he was holding us to a double standard - as they had offered wheel, which was our tech to offer more than theirs, prior to discussing it with us anyway (and thus making any offer on our part certainly no worse).

	22-03-2005 02:15									#22
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

McMeadows says:
alpha is on its way
accepted and all
Ljube says:
great
we'll send both iron and mysticism
accepted
and then pop something
math perhaps
are you on horse?
McMeadows says:
that's getting tricky
on horse?
Ljube says:
horseback riding?
HBR
Ljube says:
ok, we'll start writing
McMeadows says:
hmmm that would leave maths for us..
Ljube says:
yes, unless we pop it in which case we'll gift it as per hut popping agreement
ok, is the hut you guard for us in any jeopardy?
I hear aqua is on to it
McMeadows says:
really close now
Ljube says:
how many spaces?
McMeadows says:
2
and we're 1
Aqua still should not be able to see the hut
Ljube says:
is the hut near your warrior we encountered next to the southern mountains?
or north?
McMeadows says:
north
Ljube says:
I mean we're still not sure where it is
but we have a scout
McMeadows says:
ok give me a sec
barb camp = 8899 from mountain top where we saw you last turn
hut is another 99
Ljube says:
ok, will check now
we're two from that hut
so we should get there just before aqua
can you play the save and send here so I can see the updated situation
McMeadows says:
sorry had a phone call
Ljube says:
no problem
McMeadows says:
I'm working on the save
it's going so quick, I can't keep up reporting
Ljube says:
snoopy didn't reply, but I offered myst in exchange for your alpha
we'll send myst and iron accepted
is that ok?
McMeadows says:
I'll let the details over to him, there's enough trust that it will be worked out
Ljube says:
ok
we'll send myst anyway
we simply like you guys too much
McMeadows says:
haha...

	22-03-2005 07:43									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

myst for alpha is good enough

	24-03-2005 03:23									#24
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

This is not my day. Lost the conversation with Ljube.

I informed them that we're going to see if we're able to trade Myst for anything with DR. Ljube was ok, as long as we're not selling any militaric techs.

Moreover Ljube told me they had settled on an iron source and he expressed his fear for DR. He urged us to build more units and worry a lot.

	24-03-2005 06:41									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

hehe

Even better conversation with Ljube

They got writing from a hut, and are 8 turns out from philo.

(This is TOP SECRET, both writing and philo, please do not tell anyone, including Ljube, that you know.)

They are sure they'll get to Philo first, and a free tech.

One thing we need to consider: How hard should we push them to be ... generous ... in giving us techs, instead of just trading for-value?

Ljube offered to trade writing for HBR (roughly even trade, the way they look at things, I think) and then philo for a gpt agreement ... I strongly disagreed with gpt, and am still trying to find out why they want gpt.

I'd like to keep this on a more open trading arrangement - ie, we trade stuff openly and not for value - but am unsure they will ever see this that way.

Also, they will wait for us to get HBR and send it accepted, to pop the hut... if we can (no DR interference).

Thoughts?

	24-03-2005 06:43									#26
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Also, they have mentioned that they will give us a small gold settlement to help us get HBR faster, as we will run out of gold before we get HBR at this rate. I said we would think about it, and get back to them in a turn or two when we know how much it will be.

	26-03-2005 19:46									#27
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Paddy says:
also on the road, we will have extra worker on the job soon as built
McMeadows says:
I hope you're building 366666 starting from your newest city
No warrior next to the hut
the hut I'm refering to is 887 from the iron source your scout was posted on last turn
We'll be short on treasury for the HBR to complete in 6
Paddy says:
sorry - phone rang
where is your archer to the hut
6??
it was 3, now is 1
or will be in your case
Paddy says:
ahhh our warrior is 8
McMeadows says:
that's
Paddy says:
and do you see any of aquas lads there
McMeadows says:
moved out, towards BOH land, or into the direction of the hut (out of view now)
Paddy says:
hmmm
which direction was he
McMeadows says:
If he's going towards the hut (which location is unknown to DR) he comes from the NW
NNW
Paddy says:
ok thanks
McMeadows says:
save is sent
Paddy says:
thank you
McMeadows says:
so now tell me what that hut yields...
Paddy says:
Literature
McMeadows says:
No ****!?
Paddy says:
indeed... no ****
McMeadows says:
**** yeah..!!!!
Paddy says:
so when you get writing we will send this over
McMeadows says:
beautifull news...

	27-03-2005 00:32									#28
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Sounds good.

	27-03-2005 01:22									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

excellent

	27-03-2005 22:26									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Okay, this is a long one so i'm going HTML on this.

Gist: Ljube was being a pain in the butt - and Paddy has now forbidden him from talking to us as ambassador, so we'll be going thru Paddy now. They were very reluctant, both of them, to offer us writing and literature until we promise not to trade *either one*; I objected in very strong terms, as that's unreasonable, and indicates to me what i've been feeling for a while, that they see this as a deal that helps them and them alone. Anyway, it turns out to be irrelevant since we promise not to trade writing until it's rightfully ours (when HBR is traded).

They still want writing not to be traded, or literature, but I told them that wouldn't happen, basically, because we believe in trading. Ljube got a bit nasty there, and that's when Paddy told him to leave. (Ljube tends to think there's only one way to play this game, and it's his way; his way involves backstabbing and hobbesian thinking, and strongly dislikes tech trades unless it's in his best interest, ie he thinks he can screw you over. Paddy's the only reason I've ever felt the BOH deal is worth it; Paddy's very honorable and prefers to be friendly than to stab backs.)

Anywho, upside is we'll get writing now so we can start mathematics or CoL or whatever next once we finish HBR.

Okay, here's the text, part one.

code:


 
 
 
 

  
7:07:01 PM
  
snoopy369

  
or just invite him here
 
 

  
7:07:02 PM
  
snoopy369
  
easier
 

 

  
7:07:24 PM
  
snoopy369
  
Hello 
 
 

  
7:07:39 PM

  
Paddy
  
ok so this chat is about DG
  trade
 
 

  
7:07:39 PM
  
Ljube
  
yeah

 
 

  
7:07:56 PM
  
snoopy369
  
We were looking to get
  writing now as opposed to after HBR, so we can start the next tech right off
 
 


  
7:07:56 PM
  
Paddy
  
if we advance you Literature
  then it is not to be on traded
 
 

  
7:08:06 PM
  
snoopy369

  
Literature? That's ours by
  rights, paddy
 
 

  
7:08:09 PM
  
snoopy369
  
that was our hut
 

 

  
7:08:14 PM
  
Paddy
  
so to with writing
 
 

  
7:08:22 PM

  
Paddy
  
hehe
 
 

  
7:08:27 PM
  
snoopy369
  
Writing we won't trade it
  until after HBR is given

 
 

  
7:08:34 PM
  
snoopy369
  
otherwise it falls under the
  standard rules of the deal
 
 


  
7:08:35 PM
  
Ljube
  
look snoopy, literature is
  yours but writing is not
 
 

  
7:08:39 PM
  
snoopy369

  
yessir, i understand
 
 

  
7:08:42 PM
  
snoopy369
  
writing is for HBR
 

 

  
7:08:56 PM
  
snoopy369
  
but i'm just asking for it
  before HBR so we can start whatever tech we're going to research right away
  instead of waiting a turn
 
 

  
7:09:02 PM

  
Paddy
  
yes Lit is yours, but how
  can you get it without writing
 
 

  
7:09:03 PM
  
snoopy369
  
whichever we start will be
  one that requires writing

 
 

  
7:09:28 PM
  
Paddy
  
and if you get writing now,
  we ask that you do not trade lit
 
 


  
7:09:57 PM
  
snoopy369
  
Absolutely
  not. It is our by rights, and the lack of writing is the only thing keeping
  us from having it now. 
 
 

  
7:10:27 PM
  
Ljube

  
snoopy, you are not being
  reasonable
 
 

  
7:10:28 PM
  
snoopy369
  
The writing-hbr deal was
  made turns ago, and there's no logical reason to change it now; and no
  logical reason not to give us writing early
 

 

  
7:10:43 PM
  
snoopy369
  
Huh? You all are trying to
  keep the tech that we earned you from us. I'm fine not trading writing
 
 

  
7:10:47 PM

  
Ljube
  
be a bit more flexible
 
 

  
7:10:59 PM
  
snoopy369
  
You want to trade literature
  before we can, and claim the benefits for yourself.

 
 

  
7:11:06 PM
  
snoopy369
  
That's the only reason you'd
  be arguing this.
 
 


  
7:11:17 PM
  
Paddy
  
ok, my understanding is that
  we trade you writing for HBR
 
 

  
7:11:19 PM
  
snoopy369

  
Otherwise there's absolutely
  no reason for you to care one way or the other
 
 

  
7:11:35 PM
  
Paddy
  
we will not be tradeing lit
  at this time
 

 

  
7:11:35 PM
  
Ljube
  
writing is more expensive
  than hbr snoopy
 
 

  
7:11:55 PM

  
snoopy369
  
1) not very much 2) we
  aren't talking about exact costs in our deal 3) we had already agreed to
  trade them
 
 

  
7:12:50 PM
  
Ljube
  
yes, but our agreement
  specifies that when we exchange techs that have different value the other
  team gets compensated

 
 

  
7:13:00 PM
  
Ljube
  
somehow
 
 


  
7:13:16 PM
  
snoopy369
  
You're changing our
  agreement then, that we trade writing for hbr?
 
 

  
7:13:16 PM
  
Paddy

  
ok so if we trade you
  writing now with lit, why for then is it so hard for you not to trade lit....
  you are getting writing early, thus lit early
 
 

  
7:13:23 PM
  
Paddy
  
no
 

 

  
7:13:57 PM
  
Paddy
  
I will shut up and listen to
  you two
 
 

  
7:14:28 PM

  
Ljube
  
ok snoopy, what was the
  deal? we give you writing for hbr?
 
 

  
7:14:38 PM
  
Ljube
  
yes, but writing cost twice
  as much

 
 

  
7:14:53 PM
  
snoopy369
  
so dear snoopy, after you
  research horse, we can offer writing for horse
 
 


  
7:15:00 PM
  
snoopy369
  
that is a quote from our
  conversation a few days ago
 
 

  
7:15:08 PM
  
snoopy369

  
3/23/2005
 
 

  
7:15:11 PM
  
Paddy
  
after...
 

 

  
7:15:13 PM
  
snoopy369
  
7:28 my time
 
 

  
7:15:56 PM

  
snoopy369
  
My issue is that it is NOT
  in your best interest to prevent us from trading literature unless you have
  interest in trading it yourself, or if you do not have our team's best
  interests in mind
 
 

  
7:16:19 PM
  
snoopy369
  
If we can trade it in the
  next few turns for a tech, then great, our research pact gains another tech
  in the mix

 
 

  
7:16:24 PM
  
snoopy369
  
and the two of us get even
  faster into the next age
 
 


  
7:16:32 PM
  
Ljube
  
snoopy, you're so obsessed
  with trading and era advancement it makes me sick