09-02-2005 20:50									#31
	Got spare money?

We'll get the gold from the Ivory when we leave Despotism.

Pottery looks especaily advengous with a river start.

Explore along river, let's have the other cities also taking advantage of the free aquaducts.

quote: Originally posted by Gamecube64 Settling on the spot looks like a good idea, though it makes us miss gold from the ivory under us, it also provides some nice free defence. We should send our warriors and workers to see what is arround us, but this looks like a good spot for Babylon.

	09-02-2005 20:52									#32
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You do, but it's also along a river and there's normally extra gold there as well.

But they combine to 3 gold, and you lose 1 gold under despotism.

quote: Originally posted by Beta I thought you got the extra gold when a city was built - but not food. Where's jon - he knows all the answers.

	09-02-2005 20:55									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Beta btw - the cows tile is currently at 2-2-1 (Food, Shields, Gold) and will go to 3-2-2 when irrigated and roaded. Valuable tile.

And 4-2-2 upon leaving despotism.

	09-02-2005 21:01									#34
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On plan Y, I propose shifting the site on the forest one tile SW onto the grassland no shield.

This will allow an additional forest chop + quite probably more grassland shields in it's CR.

	09-02-2005 21:04									#35
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I also propose each turn on it's own thread.

A single turn thread would get very long quickly.

	09-02-2005 21:49									#36
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I am in favour of moving the capital settler to 7.
If we found it at the ivory, we might get the same values, but on 7 weŽd get those "same values" ADDED to the base square production...

	10-02-2005 00:34									#37
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Eh... Micha? What do you mean by the 'capital settler'? "7" from where? By agreeing to plan Y, we're not building on the Ivory.

	10-02-2005 01:13									#38
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Eh... Micha? What do you mean by the 'capital settler'?

The settler founding our capital?

quote: "7" from where? By agreeing to plan Y, we're not building on the Ivory.

7 from our starting position. I didnŽt say "Y" was bad. I just said it would be best to not build the capital where we started.

	10-02-2005 01:31									#39
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Ah, OK. We seem to agree then.

I also ran some tests. The first one shows that =at least in despotism=, settling on the Ivory is worse than next to it, if you only look at what the tiles produce.

See attached pictures. In case 1, settling on the Ivory produces 2-1-3 for the city tile and 1-1-1 for the other tile.
Total: 3-2-4.

In case 2, settling on the hill produces 2-1-3 for the city tile and 1-1-2 for the other tile.
Total: 3-2-5.

Case 1:

Attachment: babylonlocation1.jpg
This has been downloaded 46 time(s).

	10-02-2005 01:33									#40
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By the way, these tests are conducted safely on a remake of our planet; I did not use the original save.
No kittens were harmed during the making of these results.

Case 2:

Attachment: babylonlocation2.jpg
This has been downloaded 45 time(s).

	10-02-2005 01:39									#41
	Remove this text

The other test I ran is opening up many goody huts in three ways:

1. entering it with a warrior
   
2. entering it with a settler
   
3. settling right next to it
   

Attachment: barbtestarea.jpg
This has been downloaded 44 time(s).

	10-02-2005 01:50									#42
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And I found the minimap in the save.

This explains why we seem to have Pine Forests in our area.

Attachment: minimap.jpg
This has been downloaded 45 time(s).

	10-02-2005 04:49									#43
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster No kittens were harmed during the making of these results.

You're lucky. Annie was lockin' and loadin'.

	10-02-2005 04:55									#44
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn I also propose each turn on it's own thread. A single turn thread would get very long quickly.

I've seen it done both ways. I really do prefer the single thread. The dialogue will settle down. The start of a demo game is always a point of high involvement.

And most themes and tactics flow from one turn to the next, and I don't like having to go back to another thread to pick up a relevant comment or idea.

OTOH, if everyone else is keen on one thread per turn. that's Ok with me.

	10-02-2005 05:16									#45
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I guess it is too late, but I do not think Y layout was a good idea: since it is worse position for capital corruption-wise (see mini-map) than any other layout. Second, we can not use cow in the capital, that is not good either.

Plan W is much better: it more northward (better for corruption), better capital food/production

Plan X is out: due to circle river (always losing a turn going in/out of capital)

Do we need to hurry up with poping hut with a settler, city will not be on the river nor very great terrrain? We could get 25g/map for what we know...

	10-02-2005 05:29									#46
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3950BC Turn - Proposed Moves.

So - next turn - it would appear to go as follows:

Settle Babylon with southern settler. Citizen to work the enhance grassland tile until the ivory is irrigated.

Start Pottery at 100% research.

Move western settler 7.

Move eastern settler 9.

Northern worker to commence irrigating.

We see what we can see and decide on warrior moves.

	10-02-2005 05:39									#47
	Remove this text

Ok. I was indeed late with previous turn. Could anybody send me a save(s)?

	10-02-2005 13:27									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Beta Settle Babylon with southern settler. Citizen to work the enhance grassland tile until the ivory is irrigated.

Not sure. If the workers finish irrigating the Ivory tile, our citizen should already be working that tile, since the extra food applies immediately. We have 2 workers in place. Now -- how fast can they complete this job?

quote: Originally posted by Beta Start Pottery at 100% research.

Better wait a turn. We need the gold to pay for the unit upkeep. Also, we might want to switch after popping that hut.

	10-02-2005 13:33									#49
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I would also prefer W very much over Y.

However, if itŽs too late, we cannot do much about it anyway.

	10-02-2005 13:36									#50
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quote: Originally posted by pvzh I guess it is too late, but I do not think Y layout was a good idea: since it is worse position for capital corruption-wise (see mini-map) than any other layout.

Indeed. We did not look at the minimap before deciding. Hopefully we have some more land to the south.

The alternative would be to make the E city our capital, but this has other disadvantages (like waiting one turn more, not being on the river).

quote: Originally posted by pvzh Second, we can not use cow in the capital, that is not good either.

It is not optimal, but the other two cities can share the cow. One of those should be our settler pump, while the capital focuses on military and science (with the nice Ivory tile).

quote: Originally posted by pvzh Plan W is much better: it more northward (better for corruption), better capital food/production

I don't agree. First, we would be founding a city (to the NE, which would have to be an initial city due to tile usage) in the black area. For what we know, there could be a huge swamp or jungle out there.
Second, the core cities would be just too far apart.
Third, only one out of three initial cities would be on a river.

quote: Originally posted by pvzh Do we need to hurry up with poping hut with a settler, city will not be on the river nor very great terrrain? We could get 25g/map for what we know...

We need not hurry with the hut, but we do need to hurry founding a city with that settler. I think the terrain is pretty good: this will be one of our core cities! And there's more flatlands to the east, too.
There's always the risk of getting a lousy 25g or a friendly map...

	10-02-2005 17:38									#51
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Indeed. We did not look at the minimap before deciding. Hopefully we have some more land to the south.

My instincts tell me we have room for cities to the south. No sign of a coastal tile yet.

I would still like plan Y even if it meant the first ring of southern cities were coastal cities. We clearly have land for a second ring of cities in the other direction.

And if moving our capial to Y meant moving it one tile closer to the coast, it also meant moving it one tile farther away from the other civilizations.

	10-02-2005 17:49									#52
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The question is: do we have another civilization to our west? The minimap shows that there's little space to squeeze it in, especially if there is a north-south stretch of ocean along the western map edge, as is usual with computer-generated maps.

We don't know if Dominae chose to make a land bridge, of course.

If we think that there's no civ there, the western warrior should turn north after a few turns.

	10-02-2005 19:55									#53
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We have 10 starting gold, run a deficit

Improvement costs for Non-Industrious civs most govts
Roading grassland and other light terrign: 3 worker turns
Irrigation [all]: 4 worker turns
Forest Chop: 4 worker turns
Mining / railroading light terrign: 6 worker turns
Roading Hills : 6 worker turns
Roading Mountain : 9 worker turns
Mining / railroading Hills : 12 worker turns
Clear polution (light) : 12 worker turns
Clearing Marsh: 16 worker turns
Mining / railroading Mountain: 18 worker turns
Clearing Jungle: 24 worker turns
Clear polution hills : 24 worker turns
Clear polution mountains : 36 worker turns

The tech we'll get reseraching Pottery, even at 0% would be Warrior Code.

quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Not sure. If the workers finish irrigating the Ivory tile, our citizen should already be working that tile, since the extra food applies immediately. We have 2 workers in place. Now -- how fast can they complete this job? Better wait a turn. We need the gold to pay for the unit upkeep. Also, we might want to switch after popping that hut.

	10-02-2005 20:02									#54
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Minimizing corruption is not a goal in and of itself.
The real goal is to maximize total net shields produced.

Tiles should not be double counted for being in multiple cities because they can only be worked by one at a time.

I'm not familiar with Dominae maps, but I'm familar with computer generated ones, and suspect that net shield production would be higher with the forest city on Y shifted SW one tile.

	10-02-2005 20:39									#55
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Minimizing corruption is not a goal in and of itself. The real goal is to maximize total net shields produced.

Agreed. But sometimes there is a balance between maximizing shield production and food and trade production.

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Tiles should not be double counted for being in multiple cities because they can only be worked by one at a time.

Quite right. I don't think we are double-counting. However, having multiple tiles to work by different cities does increase our flexibility.

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn I'm not familiar with Dominae maps, but I'm familar with computer generated ones, and suspect that net shield production would be higher with the forest city on Y shifted SW one tile.

That's not a property of the particular map, but of the tiles itself. I'll run a simulation again to see what the difference is.
Of course, there is also the question of city spacing.

	10-02-2005 23:42									#56
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Hey guys I made it. Never got the save. Stumbled on this while checking my games over lunch.

I tested out the gmail account and left my email there. Are we going to use that?

So, we played turn one and we are up again? Or we are just planning ahead for turn two?

re: thread format.
I like one thread per turn.

	11-02-2005 00:07									#57
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joncnunn, irrigation for non-industrious is 4 worker turns (at least it is in SP)

	11-02-2005 00:35									#58
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Oops, fixed.

quote: Originally posted by pvzh joncnunn, irrigation for non-industrious is 4 worker turns (at least it is in SP)

	11-02-2005 05:08									#59
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Yep - that is why two workers are there. When done - one can move to the other tile - and one can road. I am a firm believer in roading the tile you have improved.

	11-02-2005 05:14									#60
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn I'm not familiar with Dominae maps, but I'm familar with computer generated ones, and suspect that net shield production would be higher with the forest city on Y shifted SW one tile.

Hi jon - I want to be clear what you are suggesting. In the attached map I belive you are referring to city # 3. Correct? (the map is simply the Y-plan map with the cities named/numbered.)